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Well they’re sure as hell a threat to Ukraine. The Poles, Latvians, Lithuanians, and all of the other former Soviet/now NATO countries absolutely see the value in NATO. Ask yourself this: Do you think Putin would be less emboldened to move in on former Warsaw Pact nations if they hadn’t joined NATO? Would he allow them to exist peacefully on his border with their free press and their buzzing economies and their Western ideals? I’ll answer that for you: Fuck no. There would be Russian puppet governments in all of those countries and the ones that resisted would be given the treatment Ukraine is getting right now. Ukraine’s biggest regret right now is probably that they didn’t move to join NATO sooner. Why didn’t they? Well it took them a while to shake off the pro Putin puppet government that Moscow tried to force on them a’la my argument above. The sad thing is that this is still probably going to end poorly for Ukraine. And then Moldova and Georgia will come right after. You are SO far off base in your assessment. NATO protection for countries that wish to be democratic and free has never been more important.

It’s also such a fucking cop out to say “this is our fault for not listing to Putin”. No, this is 100% the fault of the mad man in Russia who is possibly the most evil world leader since Hitler, who decided he would rather completely waste a neighboring country for his own satisfaction and ego than face the fact that his autocratic style of leadership is a failing ideology. The Ukrainian people chose to move towards the west. We didn’t force that on them, they chose it for themselves. To have your entire country destroyed simply because it’s political views don’t align with its neighboring nation is so abhorrent, it’s almost indescribable. Fuck Russia and fuck Putin.

I don't know about you folks but I am sick to my stomach watching this unfold. I am older than most of you and I remember the cold war, there was always an uneasy feeling in the background as we looked across the wall at the USSR. I remember the joy and celebration when the wall came down, the hope, watching freedom on the faces of many formerly oppressed people. There is no reset button, our relationship with Russia will obviously be very dark for years to come, in my lifetime things will never be the same. I was watching CNN a little while ago and the story and picture of the Ukrainian Father crying over his dead son...I can't even process it thinking of my own son. Like many of you I flew a lot of combat missions and saw a lot of horrible things, but this is fucked up and it is only going to get worse. How will we be remembered by history? As we sit by and let potentially millions be slaughtered. I know there is no easy answer and we have peeled this onion every way possible but it is a hopeless feeling to watch this brave people getting mowed down.

Is this like when liberals told me I couldn't judge Islamic countries for honor killings "because it's their culture, you just don't understand"?

I haven’t once said that. This whole burst of debate was caused by another poster claiming that the US is at fault because we “expanded NATO to Russia’s door step”, which is such a load of bullshit it’s laughable. Yeah, yeah, you’ll both follow up with that, “that’s just your western opinion man”. That’s such a lazy statement and you could literally counter every terrible thing that’s ever happened in the world since the beginning of time with “well the other side saw it this way”.

Nope. Been very very very highly trained by the USG on this. Hold a graduate degree in global security and have worked academically in partnerships with strategic DoD centers. Look I dont support Putin. I'm trying to get you guys to think like officers and not naive teenagers that think they can just march in a parade or pick up a gun and make a difference. If you go to war with Russia tomorrow, you are going to lose, because you don't even know what victory conditions are for Russia. How do you stop Russia from winning when you don't even know what it is he is trying to win.

So if Putin attacks Sweden and Finland and they are "not" part of NATO but "did" deploy troops to Afghanistan under NATO command. Let's just admit them to NATO to prevent what happened to Ukraine. Plus, Finland has US equipment already so they can integrate well with the rest of NATO. If we would have accepted Ukraine into NATO a year ago instead of listening in on a phone call to score political points this tragedy would not have happened. I'm to the point that when I see anyone wearing a tie, I go to default mode that they are full of shit until proven they are not

Interesting review of Russian tactics. Better than the TEAM meeting i was on while watching it. Russo-Ukraine War: What the West Doesn't Understand EP 3 - YouTube

Exactly that was the problem I had with the discussion. I have no desire to get Into a direct shooting war with Russia. I take issue that every time an academic discussion in the west it always seems to end with us having to be in the wrong some way and that all the other opinions have equal value. Fuk that…this war is Putin’s doing. I can completely understand why former Soviet republics would want to join NATO, it’s on full display right now. I completely disagree that the west has to do some kind of soul searching to figure out how we were wrong and forced Putin to invade Ukraine. Putin misjudged the west’s actions and I hope his economy crumbles and he is removed from power, preferably by a rope. In the meantime more sanctions, pump US oil and continue to dump weapons into the Ukraine to kill as many Russians as possible.

See the Presidential thread. Posted an article that pretty much said the Democrats have come full fucking circle and are going to make America great again, again. It's just absolutely tragic it had to take the suffering of Ukraine for them to come to that conclusion.

Agree with your post. They have a right sure. I can show you a US rep that is advocating a no fly zone, a US senator openly calling to assassinate Putin, and a former NATO ambassador advocating to arm the Ukrainians with A-10s. Those people help make and shape US policy not you or I. Scary. at this point I agree best COA is to let Russia get bogged down in Ukraine and spend their blood and treasure. This will weaken Putin both domestically and internationally. That is in the best interest of the US.

I'm sorry but anybody who thinks this was about NATO getting close to his boder needs to have their heads checked. We could have disolved NATO 10 years ago, he'd still have invaded. Go watch Star Wars, it will tell you everything you need to know. This is about power. My neighbour is from Russia and she said that Putin's Russia will not be happy till the world recognizes their greatness and the empire is restored. They are embarrassed that they don't have their empire anymore, they have never gotten over it. In summary: * Putin is a mega narcissist, he wants to restore Russia into a super power and empire. Anybody who believes a word that comes out of his mouth that is to the contrary, get your head checked. Just look how competitive he is. He cannot stand that the USA is where it is compared to the shell of the USSR he presides over. *He was going to invade, NATO or not. He is not dumb, he is a patient and calculating man. We could have guaranteed no NATO. Hed still be trying to reclaim Ukraine. Fact. *If he wasn't limited by his own lifespan, he'd 100 percent try and march all the way through Europe, maybe not at once, but little bites at a time. What his successor will do is anybody's guess. * He guessed right on the west not wanting to engage directly with him him. He guessed wrong on our willingness to reunite and isolate him and bleed his economy for all the Ukrainian's hes killed, even if it hurts ourselves in the process. He was banking on the world not caring about dead Ukranians. He's actually affirmed that NATO needs to exist, and the Europe needs to rearm itself, which Trump did have right IIRC. *He, like most emperors before him, gives zero shit about his own people. Russia is like home ownership. He wants the grandest home, the bigger the better. But it's HIS Russian empire. Calling him a president is about as accurate as saying Russia has freedom of the press. He is a Czar in presidential clothing, what he wants goes. If Ukraine is restored to mother Russia, the same song and dance will come out in 10 years about say Poland. It's too close to his border, he'll slowly use information warfare to attempt to internally fracture Poland so that he can get it.

Anybody feel like discussing how this whole thing could’ve been avoided if only Putin had considered our Western perspective and not just thought with his Eastern one? Maybe there are some tweets on the subject? It’s perfectly fine to acknowledge there are 2+ perspectives in every conflict. To whatever degree one might understand the other, the fact remains that whoever decides to take up arms is more at fault for upsetting peace and stability. If I’m reading some of these opinions correctly, they’re saying that just because Russia is wrong to have invaded Ukraine that doesn’t relieve the West of culpability. That must be true since here we are, but the problem with the next step of identifying what we could’ve/should’ve done differently is it forces us to prove a negative. It is not a fact that not expanding NATO/disbanding NATO/losing the Cold War/not entering WW2/etc. would have resulted in a more peaceful world today, especially if the person responding to these moves may or may have not been a rational actor. It may be that Russia was going to retake Eastern Europe no matter what and under whatever pretext was most convenient. We’ll never know, and just because Putin’s said something on the topic carries little water given his loose relationship with the truth. So while I encourage introspection to identify specific steps we could’ve taken to help avoid catastrophe, unwinding 30 years of the new world order and all the national interests that we have made concrete gains on is a bridge too far for me.

Comparing hitler to Putin shows how lacking your knowledge on the situation is. 2022 Russia is not 1930s Germany. if you think Putin has ambitions to conquer all of Europe then we simply cannot have a debate. and yes, we do not want to start a war over Ukraine. No one cared about Ukrainian until a few weeks ago, and suddenly everyone is foaming at the mouth to take on the Russian bear. Your emotions are being manipulated to enter a colossal strategic mistake.

A country seizing parts of a neighboring country while governments with the power to stop it say things like "its not our concern" and "we don't want to start a bigger war" certainly seems analogous to me.

Holy shit people we've come full circle..... https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2022/03/03/biden-lower-inflation-plan/9341221002/

What are you talking about and which side are you on? This sounds like a statement that could’ve been released by the Russian foreign ministry. I do not recall any serious attempt to overthrow Putin in the last decade or ever. Nor do I recall NATO or the West openly or otherwise supporting a coup. Doing so would’ve surely been detrimental to the stability of Russia’s nuclear arsenal which has been one of the West’s top priorities in dealing with Russia. We have tended to support calls from within Russia for things like election reform and freedom of speech amongst others which are values no Westerner should be apologetic for espousing anywhere.

It’s no secret to Russia or anyone else that NATO has always been about collective defense. No “insider baseball” necessary. Putin would certainly like the world to believe that narrative though. It makes it easier for him to threaten his neighbors. I’m sure he REALLY likes it when people like US service members, politicians, and media influencers buy off on that narrative. Stop falling into his trap.

Actually all he's really done is ensure the west arms itself to the teeth and does its best to crash the Russian economy. He is actually going to help the West, but kill a bunch of innocent people in the process. Just like a true dictator, like every, single one that has come before him, blinded by his own arrogance.

It sets a dangerous precedent for sure. Got nukes? Do whatever you want, nobody can touch you. Crushing the Russians economically needs to be priority number 1 until their people wake the up, however long it takes.

It’s okay! He’s a democrat. It’s allowed. Along with his blatant past racist statements.

The Ukrainian people aren't a bargaining chip between the west and Russia tho man. They are people who want a say in their future.

I'm convinced some of the posters in this thread are Russians. Or Ukrainians. Or High Schoolers. One of the three.

T

Something just seems "odd" with a couple of the most vociferous posters. I'm not smart enough to recognize the "why," but it sure does seem like it. Of course, we have a couple of posters who are happy with the self-inflicted COVID vaccine casualties that an enemy couldn't do much worse...

Look I know this is hard for you to fathom but at the end of the day, 1 pilot and 1 plane is not winning a war. A war is a statewide effort. That's what total war is, it's the whole country unifying as one apparatus to win. US industry and academia definitely won the war for us. There are not many serious thinkers who think otherwise. It was the first time in history we saw the advantage of literally just being able to throw money on a fire until the fire went out. It doesn't mean the people that actually fought aren't heroes or were valuable, but the strategy the US used to win WW2, and literally every conflict we've planned for after that, are heavily reliant on the capability to gen up industry to reconstitute losses. Why do you think we folded on the F-15EX? Did we really need it? Or did we recognize and industrial advantage to Boeing keeping additional fighter production lines open? Academia fell out in Vietnam but came back after GWOT. Prior to Vietnam you use to no kidding be able to major in Military Science and Strategy at most US universities. The war/defense department were largely staffed by civilians and policy makers would get degrees in it. The military would pull key academics from universities to solve hard problems and the imbed them with industry to drive technological solutions. This is the American way of war man. This is how we fight. Money and technology. I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you.

I’ve been giving historical examples to justify my argument. Which you dismiss as “not relevant”. I would argue thats typical academic hubris because it might derail your argument. Youre using youtube videos of academics to justify your own non-historical viewpoint. Its like a bunch of professors sitting in a circle smelling their own farts and telling each other how wonderful they are.

I’ve elaborated multiple times already. Eastward expansion of NATO as a threat to Russia is a Putin derived fantasy tale used to justify his own personal goals and desires for power in the region. It’s clear you believe that story line though.

“Leading foreign policy statesmen” are a large part of the reason the world is so fked up right now. Just because they say something doesn’t mean it’s the truth. It’s worth listening too sure, but it is just an opinion which history shows over and over again they get wrong. I do know what Putin is doing right now is his own making and is fk’ed up, I don’t need to blame NATO or the US for Putin killing civilians and holding the world hostage with his nuclear weapons. Just because people like to do some circle jerk because they have all sorts of academic degrees doesn’t mean they are any smarter than the rest of the unwashed masses who can use common sense to know something is wrong when they see it. I am tired of having to think about other countries background when what they are doing is wrong. And again any more dead Russians to post?

Not super quick but if you ask your flight med it would be quicker. Should be in your records Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

You realize there is SEATO right? Thats why Aussies, Kiwis and South Koreans were in Vietnam with us.

Lol does he have thousands of nuclear weapons? ☢️ Did you read the twitter thread I posted that had the US’s leading foreign policy thinkers warning us for decades that we were poking the bear? (Pun intended) provoking nuclear armed states is not in the best interest of US foreign policy.

Dude, everyone here gets what you're saying. The Russians (well, mostly Putin) view NATO and its growth differently than we do. That's not in dispute. Decades old promises from former US and other world leaders is great, but geopolitics changes and, like it or not, the people that lived in these former Soviet republics get a say in how they want to live and be governed, and they have overwhelmingly clamored to be part of the western system and NATO.

All I know is, if that powerplant starts ionizing the night sky i can tell you this entire back and forth about sun tzu batata, 'venn diagram thy enemy' podcast fodder is gonna become moot right ricky tick, especially if the winds blow from the east. Ironically, the last time a Ukrainian powerplant ionized the night sky, it was belarus (nee SSR) that took it between the uprights the hardest That caesium-137 boy, is like a scorned baby mama...that -ish lingers on forever, she doesn't let go.

When questioned on details for his plan the President responded he was, “going to make America great, once more…” Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

By the concepts of Western sovereignty I should want to defend a democratic, capitalist, christian nation…Who would that resemble?

NATO is a defensive organization. Exactly what wars has NATO initiated?

3.6 Roentgen. Not great…not terrible.

The fact that he warned the west doesn't make it the west's fault that he invaded a sovereign country without even a hint of a pretext. Your argument is basically the same as "she wore a mini-skirt, so she was asking to get raped". Not ok.

I would recommend that the UN/NATO/EU/etc start broadcasting/posting maps - updated daily - showing the potential downwind hazard areas if this Nuke Power Plant or other Ukrainian Nuke Power Plants go into the wartime meltdown mode: The maps will probably look something like this =

This is why I so dearly my cargo gig. I land at ICN, and they say “follow the greens.” Wait…scratch that, cuz then I go to anywhere in China, which is like O’Hare…in mandarin.

VA regardless if they are high balance (over 647,200) or conforming are always going to beat conventionals or jumbos. If you’re comparing non-VA the government recently added a fee to high balance conventionals which in many cases pushed them higher than privately invested jumbos which the government doesn’t control. Best big loans will always be VA and the fee doesn’t apply to VA either. Article below. https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/fhfa-high-balance-loans-expensive

You're shitting us right? Our energy policy is totally about politics. it shouldn't be but, in the US everything is politics now. We still have decades and decades of energy in the ground under the US. The newest Nuclear technology is the cleanest and most green energy source we have available right now, but sadly it's out of fashion.

Plot twist: Pyongyang nukes Moscow off the map to demonstrate their capabilities and deeply rooted care for human rights. They open their borders, reunify as a United Korea where Kim is elected as the new country’s first President, and become a staunch ally of the west…all from a plan developed by now President-elect Rodman. China becomes a champion for workers rights and joins NATO, Hillary runs for President and loses again, and the sun sets on a peaceful Earth. Scene.

Flea, did the DIME model work for Georgia or Crimea? Discuss.

I will say this about Adam. I have personal knowledge that he was extraordinarily instrumental to the evacuation of Americans and Afghan allies back in August and September. He has my respect for that.

Now you know the rest of the story…I’m Danger41. Good day!

I'm a Paul Harvey fan.

I actually think this is a ridiculous take. The entire nuclear enterprise is predicated on no one launching a nuke. If Russia launches a nuke, it may not result in a nuclear response, but it will result in a complete reframing of the worldview of nuclear deterrence. In particular, I suspect it would lead to the West determining that nuclear weapons can no longer be allowed in any number amongst our enemies. That is an outcome that China most assuredly does not want. A nuclear attack makes any economic sacrifice suddenly palatable, and you would expect the West to completely isolate both China, North Korea, Iran, and Russia from the world economy in the event it is decided that no one can have nukes anymore. If, and I think it is a spectacular if, Putin were to use nukes against anyone, I think you would see China immediately ally with the United States and the West for the purposes of utterly and completely decimating Russia as a global player. We may seem weak in this new and sensitive world. But our enemies have not forgotten what happens when the United States finds resolve, and our adversaries have been very careful over the last 30 years to avoid crossing any lines. Nuking and innocent country would bring out the best in Americans, which would be the worst possible outcome for anyone in our way.