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MDDieselPilot

Commanders are dropping like flies this year

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7 hours ago, FLEA said:

What would public perception have been if we evacuated an aircraft carrier of demographically young/healthier people, when we are making cruise ships sit at sea for 2-3 weeks when they have outbreaks.

A cruise ship isn't an instrument of national power; a CSG just leaving port is a strong message to any adversary that shit's about to get real.  Evacuating a few dozen sailors from a ship before combat effectiveness erodes is a prudent decision, and ultimately would have cost the Navy next to nothing (other than senior leadership having to actually demonstrate the ability to admit their first instinct was wrong and change their minds).

Throughout my career, I've been flabbergasted by the hesitance of military leadership at multiple levels to take what could be deemed a tactical loss for a strategic win.  "Oh, no! My boss will see I have sick people and will look upon me negatively!" seems to routinely override "I made the decision to take a quick pause, police my rounds, and get back in the fight sooner and with greater lethality because I didn't let my pride take out my unit and both of my kneecaps".  Even ISIS seems to understand this damn point (re: ISIS guidance to avoid COVID-19 hot spots)!

All that said, if you make your boss look like a jackass without giving him/her a chance to solve your issue at your level, not zesty.  And for the classified/FOUO/sensative/etc argument: compilation is our largest vulnerability in today's day and age.

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Posted (edited)

Now > 400 positive COVID-19 cases from the TR alone, with one sailor in the ICU. That’s damn near 10% of the crew. More than half of the cases Navy-wide are from that one single ship.

Given the R0 of this virus, the rest of the TR crew would soon have been infected if dramatic action wasn’t taken.

IMHO Crozier is looking better and better for ringing a 4-alarm fire bell. Nitpicking his email tactics (literally “But his emails!!”) pales in importance to the importance of taking action to save the crew.

Edited by nsplayr
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48 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Do we have any evidence it was NOT encrypted on NIPR?

We don't have a lot of evidence of anything surrounding this incident, but as it was shared with someone outside NIPRNET, it either was never encrypted or someone along the line turned the encryption off.

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26 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Now > 400 positive COVID-19 cases from the TR alone, with one sailor in the ICU. That’s damn near 10% of the crew. More than half of the cases Navy-wide are from that one single ship.

Given the R0 of this virus, the rest of the TR crew would soon have been infected if dramatic action wasn’t taken.

IMHO Crozier is looking better and better for ringing a 4-alarm fire bell. Nitpicking his email tactics (literally “But his emails!!”) pales in importance to the importance of taking action to save the crew.

There are claims that the number of cases would have been just the same, or even higher, had those infected sailors been taken off the Roosevelt.  And there's no proof that the rest of the crew hasn't contracted it and aren't showing symptoms yet.

They should have never done a port of call at Da Nang...

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Now > 400 positive COVID-19 cases from the TR alone, with one sailor in the ICU. That’s damn near 10% of the crew. More than half of the cases Navy-wide are from that one single ship.

Given the R0 of this virus, the rest of the TR crew would soon have been infected if dramatic action wasn’t taken.

IMHO Crozier is looking better and better for ringing a 4-alarm fire bell. Nitpicking his email tactics (literally “But his emails!!”) pales in importance to the importance of taking action to save the crew.

A few more details/????; Also, see Air Force Gen. John Hyten, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff "Comments";

"Roosevelt Sailor with COVID-19 Found Unresponsive in Guam "

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/09/roosevelt-sailor-covid-19-found-unresponsive-guam.html

Edited by waveshaper
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Well now that the TR is down for the count, we'll be seeing Flankers in the skies over the U.S. any day now.  If you had just sent the email properly, none of this would have happened.  Thanks a lot Capt. Crozier 🙄

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1 hour ago, M2 said:

We don't have a lot of evidence of anything surrounding this incident, but as it was shared with someone outside NIPRNET, it either was never encrypted or someone along the line turned the encryption off.

We have no idea how it was transmitted to the press. It could have been forwarded by email, It's also just as easy to print it and hand it to a contact. It's also not hard to take an encrypted email and copy and paste the chain into personal email. Some additional thoughts, you are not REQUIRED to encrypt FOUO, only to attempt to. (You are required to encrypt PII, both of these rules are per the DoDIs on Information Security) Also, a lot of staffs are using org boxes now which can't recieve encrypted. Possible if one of the recipients was an org box it was removed to accommodate. 

Bottom line is, firing Crozier for someone else leaking the info sounds a bit off to me. At the end of the day his email was IAW all information security guidelines so long as everyone on the recipient list was a USG employee, which it sounds like is the case. 

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1 hour ago, M2 said:

They should have never done a port of call at Da Nang...

This ^  and that was on March 4th.  There was plenty of information out about the virus by then.  

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2 hours ago, M2 said:

.

They should have never done a port of call at Da Nang...

The Navy has said this since the '60s.

And sailors were catching bugs back then as well...

 

 

BTW, the fired acting SECNAV's permanent replacement is on a fast-track for confirmation.  Guy was originally nominated back in February, then the zombies attacked...

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1 hour ago, lloyd christmas said:

This ^  and that was on March 4th.  There was plenty of information out about the virus by then.  

As of March 4th, Vietnam had a total of 20 cases.  Not sure that was enough to convince them to call off a scheduled port call.  Especially in the area, given our need to keep Vietnam on our side and not in bed with the Chinese.

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Maybe he didn't encrypt it because he knew everyone was working from home and wouldn't have been able to open the email.

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55 minutes ago, pawnman said:

As of March 4th, Vietnam had a total of 20 cases.  Not sure that was enough to convince them to call off a scheduled port call.  Especially in the area, given our need to keep Vietnam on our side and not in bed with the Chinese.

This.  According to the CDC, there were 15 reported cases in the US when they decided to have Mardi Gras.

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There’s not enough evidence to draw solid conclusions here, especially as low-SA non-players, because no investigation into Crozier’s actions happened before he was fired. Which is pretty much the reason for the whole argument. It was a knee-jerk emotional firing by the SecNav. 

There'll probably be an investigation now...

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1 hour ago, pawnman said:

As of March 4th, Vietnam had a total of 20 cases.  Not sure that was enough to convince them to call off a scheduled port call.  Especially in the area, given our need to keep Vietnam on our side and not in bed with the Chinese.

The last time a carrier was there was in 1975.  I would like to think that the military had a better idea of what was really going on in that part of the world IRT to the virus at that time.   At least enough to make a smart decision as to not allow "sailors to participate in cultural and professional exchanges, community service projects, sports competitions, and receptions during the port visit."   The cruise industry was shutting down right about then.   Hell, the Diamond Princess was quarantined in Japan beginning on Feb 4th.  That was a pretty big story.  It just doesn't seem too hard to predict what was going to happen when thousands of people get off of a ship and then get back on the ship knowing the virus was around.    

 

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Just now, lloyd christmas said:

The last time a carrier was there was in 1975.  I would like to think that the military had a better idea of what was really going on in that part of the world IRT to the virus at that time.   At least enough to make a smart decision as to not allow "sailors to participate in cultural and professional exchanges, community service projects, sports competitions, and receptions during the port visit."   The cruise industry was shutting down right about then.   Hell, the Diamond Princess was quarantined in Japan beginning on Feb 4th.  That was a pretty big story.  It just doesn't seem too hard to predict what was going to happen when thousands of people get off of a ship and then get back on the ship knowing the virus was around.    

 

Based on the number of cases country-wide, they would have been more at risk in San Diego or NYC than Da Nang.

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1 minute ago, pawnman said:

Based on the number of cases country-wide, they would have been more at risk in San Diego or NYC than Da Nang.

And here we are.  

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On Mar 4th many people on this forum, (including myself) and talking heads on TV were convinced this virus was a hoax, over hyped, or a political ploy. 

We have been in isolation long enough that we have quickly forgotten how casual our attitudes were only a month ago. I hardly blame crozier for porting. 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, FLEA said:

On Mar 4th many people on this forum, (including myself) and talking heads on TV were convinced this virus was a hoax, over hyped, or a political ploy. 

We have been in isolation long enough that we have quickly forgotten how casual our attitudes were only a month ago. I hardly blame crozier for porting. 

Yep. Obviously, Captain Crozier didn't make this decision (in a vacuum) for the USS Theodore Roosevelt and USS Bunker Hill to visit this potential coronavirus hotspot (????) in early March. Here's a couple more co-conspirators that were involved in this Da Nang port call, I'm sure there's a few more, etc.

"USS Theodore Roosevelt arrives in Vietnam, becoming second US carrier to visit since the 1970s";

The USS Theodore Roosevelt arrived Thursday in Vietnam, becoming only the second U.S. aircraft carrier to make a port call there since the fall of Saigon in 1975.

"The carrier, accompanied by the guided-missile cruiser USS Bunker Hill, steamed into Danang, where they were met by Vietnamese and U.S. government and military officials, according to a 7th Fleet news release. Waiting to greet the vessels were Adm. John C. Aquilino, commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, and U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam Daniel Kritenbrink.

The port call by the Roosevelt and its strike group, a total of 6,500 military personnel, marks 25 years since the two former foes normalized their diplomatic relations.

Adm. Phil Davidson, commander of the U.S. Indo-Pacific Command, announced Tuesday that the Roosevelt would stop in Vietnam."

https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/uss-theodore-roosevelt-arrives-in-vietnam-becoming-second-us-carrier-to-visit-since-the-1970s-1.621313

 

Edited by waveshaper
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Ironic:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/08/navy-secretary-trip-roosevelt-cost-243-000-leads-modly-ouster/2973486001/

I just heard on the news that CNO is considering reinstating Crozier to his command billet on the Roosevelt.  That would be quite a turn around.  

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1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

Ironic:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/08/navy-secretary-trip-roosevelt-cost-243-000-leads-modly-ouster/2973486001/

I just heard on the news that CNO is considering reinstating Crozier to his command billet on the Roosevelt.  That would be quite a turn around.  

I don't think it'll happen, but if it did that would be amazing for that service.

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1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

Ironic:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/08/navy-secretary-trip-roosevelt-cost-243-000-leads-modly-ouster/2973486001/

I just heard on the news that CNO is considering reinstating Crozier to his command billet on the Roosevelt.  That would be quite a turn around.  

Lot of crow to be eaten by Big Gray if true.  Pretty unprecedented.

And still the admirals between then CO Crozier and acting SECNAV have a role in this.  Either active or passive, but this cluster is gonna have some further fratricide...

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The CNO is considering it because the POTUS is considering it. The guy can tell which way the wind is blowing, and knows this POTUS gives not one shit about interventions from his seat down to that level, especially in the Navy - already been demonstrated.

Chuck

 

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