Jump to content
Baseops Forums
norskman

UPT Next

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Air_Space said:

Very interested about trying to get into the 35 if I can make it work (ie. Not suck and fly airplanes good). Any idea if this is going to be a gradual shift or if it'll suddenly be like it is now where you get a viper and you get a viper, everyone gets a viper out of UPT? 

Ended T-6s with 90 hours and no ride repeats or extra rides. Also contrary to popular opinion you can still be kicked out of UPT and/or pursued to DOR. Probably not as much as the past but still happens

It’s just the way the USAF fighter community is going as more F-35’s come online. Similar to how the F-16 used to be the most common airframe in the USAF therefore a lot of pilots went to it to fly it. But right when it came out, most fighter bound guys were still going F-4 because there weren’t the seats available. 
 

If you’re T-6 complete now and about to start 38’s with aspirations of F-35, I’d plan to graduate at the top of the class. If you just want to fly a fighter, I’d recommend you maintain a pulse for the next 6 months and you’ll get there.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Scooter14 said:

 


Zero fixed wing time?

Sounds like a good way to make sure someone can’t ever leave the helicopter community...

 

Correct. The goal of this program is to make a better pilot though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Correct. The goal of this program is to make a better pilot though. 


Copy, but I’m not sure I buy it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Scooter14 said:

 


Copy, but I’m not sure I buy it.

 

Yeah, neither do I. Sarcasm here. I can't imagine how cutting a pilot syllabus by 115 hrs (~56%) will make someone better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Danger41 said:

If you just want to fly a fighter, I’d recommend you maintain a pulse for the next 6 months and you’ll get there.

Quoted again for emphasis. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, neither do I. Sarcasm here. I can't imagine how cutting a pilot syllabus by 115 hrs (~56%) will make someone better. 

But, but the metric is green now!

That means better right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Danger41 said:

 If you just want to fly a fighter, I’d recommend you maintain a pulse for the next 6 months and you’ll get there.

quoted again for accuracy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Former next instructor here.  Genuinely saddened and ashamed that big blue took something with a lot of promise and decided to use it to increase quantity rather than quality.  

Can't say I'm even a little bit surprised though.  

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Scooter14 said:

 


Zero fixed wing time?

Sounds like a good way to make sure someone can’t ever leave the helicopter community...

 

Also a great way to make helicopters even more the red-headed stepchildren, who will struggle to work with fixed-wing dudes for lack of background.
It's a terrible idea, IMO.  It will reduce quality (flight experience) and introduce cultural problems wrt "big AF."

Finished Rucker with 218hrs, with a little over 100 in Hueys, but that was in 2012.  Showed up to my first ops unit with about 290, if I recall correctly.
Now, we could get new copilots with under 200, from what it sounds like. Anyone remember the most dangerous time for aviators...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A new LT that went through UPT Next recently showed up in my squadron.

He got his wings with ~65 hours in the T-6. He finished "IFF" with two flights in the T-6 for a grand total of <70 hours flight time before going to a fighter FTU course. He failed out of that course and was sent to a FEB. He got a waiver and was reassigned to something that is not a fighter. 6 graduates form his UPT Next class went fighters, two failed out.

He said that his class told those above them the whole time that they were not ready to graduate. They were told that if they had issues, they would be able to return to UPT for a T-38 course. That was not true, and now a dude with less than 100 hours flying has a FEB on his record.

I have "flown" the VR "sims" these guys used. They are almost useless. They might as well not even have flight controls.

This is about saving money and producing pilots faster. It is not about producing competent and safe pilots.

What a joke.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Graduated 1st half of 2019
T1 -    58.0 hrs
T6 -     79.7 hrs
Total - 137.7 hrs

Our class had a few syllabus changes (e.g. no 2nd block of form for studs tracking T1's) but was one of the last classes prior to a major syllabus change. DLF was also not doing the mission fam block of T1's when I was there because they didn't have enough aircraft due to that hailstorm a few years back. I think they started doing them again since last year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, raimius said:

Also a great way to make helicopters even more the red-headed stepchildren, who will struggle to work with fixed-wing dudes for lack of background.
It's a terrible idea, IMO.  It will reduce quality (flight experience) and introduce cultural problems wrt "big AF."

Absolutely correct. Also, from my understanding, the FWF course at Vance has long since been shut down for RW bubbas. Anyone have data on that? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Absolutely correct. Also, from my understanding, the FWF course at Vance has long since been shut down for RW bubbas. Anyone have data on that? 


No longer with us. One of the Sim instructors at vance told me it was rapidly eating up aircraft time and quickly pushing aircraft overhaul timeframes way forward than expected. It ended back in 2013 I think. Now most of the fleet is nearing overhaul, and from what He understands, there’s a plan being floated around about making the UPT 2.5 Toner phase (about 3 months) SIM only with no actual T1 time.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, CharlieHotel47 said:

...from what He understands, there’s a plan being floated around about making the UPT 2.5 Toner phase (about 3 months) SIM only with no actual T1 time.

 

Just what the MAF needs, worse hands. No way this is real.

  • Haha 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t know about this exact plan, but there is a desire in 19 AF to completely ditch the T-1 and send pilots to the MAF after getting winged from T-6s.

AMC/A3T is quite concerned about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

I don’t know about this exact plan, but there is a desire in 19 AF to completely ditch the T-1 and send pilots to the MAF after getting winged from T-6s.

AMC/A3T is quite concerned about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

As they should be, that’s the worst idea ever.  Who is going to train these T-1 wonders at the FTUs and ops squadrons? When Rona dies the mass exodus of IPs will continue.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate knowing this but I think this is a battle we (pilots) are going to lose. 

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I hate knowing this but I think this is a battle we (pilots) are going to lose. 

Of course. We will be the ones that shed blood for the decisions of management.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shamelessly stolen from a MAF corner of the internet. 
68CC99F8-FCD0-4916-99AA-DE805058E702.jpeg.0652dc1429e7053276e229317652acee.jpeg

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Just what the MAF needs, worse hands. No way this is real.

It is real. The end game for heavies is airline style training, as far as the Kwast-bred PTN illuminati is concerned. There's even sub-pipelines in the works to get hypothetical regional (and equivalent experience et al) civilian re-treads and just send them to FTU after an assessment of "credit" for civilian training. The paradigm is being baked to dispense with heavy sortie counts in the aircraft, which is SOP in airline training. That means T-1 sims only in the most likely formulation, though they'd love to jam the FTUs with T-6 direct. That's their Motrin you see; every problem in the USAF can be solved by Oculus and "t-6 dIrEcT". They got a fever, and the only Rx...is more T-6. *cowbell clanging*

As to the question about quality, the quiet part has already been spoken out loud. It's even in the title FFS. This is about throughput and quantity, not quality. As to retention? oh children, enough already....They don't care about retention. And our new CSAF already took a jab at critics in that propaganda piece. So don't forget, any objective criticism of these opportunity costs just lands you in Luddite "you're part of the problem, old guy" re-education camp. Now it's on public record, so there should be no question what the marching orders are from the top. This will be the new reality. And be careful, the commissars are everywhere, "mentoring" has already occurred in some instances, if I may be euphemistic.

From the article [my emphasis]: 

Quote

Brown’s not concerned about more of the pilot training program moving to simulation, and away from real-world flying sorties. He said he was checked out in a C-130J through simulator rides only and was “fully qualified to fly the airplane” afterward. “I didn’t really notice that much difference” between the two, he said. While it’s important that students hear the engines and “smell the JP-8” fuel, “by and large, you can get a lot done in a good simulator,” he said.

Asked about instructor pilots who have raised concerns about students moving to majority-simulator training, Brown said he expects resistance to any new idea.

“Anytime we try to change anything, you’re going to move somebody out of their comfort zone,” he said. While there may have been such objections a year ago, “I think we’ve moved on from that.”

So they don't need your skepticism, now get back on the parade line and look enthusiastic for dear Leader, you're not singing convincingly enough. 😄 

 

 Stay safe out there everyone.

 

LINK: Air Force Magazine, Aug 23 2020

Edited by hindsight2020
  • Like 2
  • Sad 1
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/21/2020 at 8:36 PM, SurelySerious said:

 

FDNY is the only data point within the last few years so far, and he is significantly less (about 40-50 as 2020 pointed out). Otherwise, agree, it was pretty constant from your 1989 to about 2012 ish based on available data. 

I just graduated earlier this month with approximately 134 hours in UPT roughly split down the middle between the T-6 and T-1. Another data point for what it's worth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

How many hours are pilots/WSOs coming out of F-15E B-course with? Curious how it compares to the F-16/F-35, as those jets are both AETC vs. ACC, and as close a comparison as possible regarding breadth of mission sets.
 

Hypothesis: ACC knows fighter business better, so why is AETC sticking its hands in the fighter pie with 2 of the 6 fighter MDS. 

Edited by brabus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, brabus said:How many hours are pilots/WSOs coming out of F-15E B-course with? Curious how it compares to the F-16/F-35, as those jets are both AETC vs. ACC, and as close a comparison as possible regarding breadth of mission sets.
 

Hypothesis: ACC knows fighter business better, so why is AETC sticking its hands in the fighter pie with 2 of the 6 fighter MDS. 

I think it is fairly obvious from the new CSAF, all of management want the numbers to look good regardless of how many jets are crashed. All objections to the master plan have been deemed “not a team player”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...