What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Duck]

You guys are way off base.

Service before Self.

You all are replaceable.

Or at least that’s what I was told for the past 12 years.


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[FUSEPLUG]

You forgot “pretty darn good.”

[FLEA]

FYI if you are effected by this: Maj Gen Craig Wills is taking direct questions from people effected by the waiver denials on the MAF Facebook Page and will look into each case to see if he can alleviate burden. 

"(1/2) Team, thanks for letting me join the forum. I’m the new 19th Air Force Commander and I’m responsible for approving waiver requests.   The short answer is that I’ll review each on a case by case basis. Where it makes sense, I’ll approve, but most waivers will not likely be approved.  Here’s why: Over the years, we’ve given so many waivers that they had become automatic.  Almost 100 last year alone. Unfortunately the result was that we have been setting folks up for failure at PIT and at their wings.  Instructing at UPT is one of the most demanding jobs you’ll have.  It makes no sense to auto-waive course entry requirements for one of the most stressful jobs out there, especially when the requirements are reasonable. One of leadership’s primary responsibilities is to prepare and develop their people for what’s next. I’m hoping this will help improve the experience levels of our IP force and also help incentivize AMC to invest more in their young ACs.(2/2) Unfortunately, the waiver process is broken; something we’re fixing.  The unfortunate result is that folks have been finding out late and as we’ve seen on this page, there’s been real impact to people’s lives. I’m working with AFPC and your bosses to make sure that we fix this on the front end; you should never get a RIP unless you either meet the requirements or your boss has coordinated a waiver in advance.  For the wing, squadron and group CCs out there, please lean forward if you think you’ll need a waiver for your Airmen. If you’re waiting on a waiver and getting ready to move, hit me up at xxxxxxxxx or xxxxxxx and I’ll get you a same day decision.Thanks again for allowing me to join the group. Please feel free to reach out if you have any other questions!"

[Day Man]

4 minutes ago, FLEA said:

 If you’re waiting on a waiver and getting ready to move, hit me up at xxxxxxxxx or xxxxxxx and I’ll get you a same day decision.

But seriously, good on him for making that option available.  

[Danger41]

That’s actually pretty awesome, in my opinion. Disagree with the action, but at least he’s got the balls to get out there and defend it.

[jrizzell]

Were all those 100 waivered IPs performing at a below level standard? Seems like a new-guy showed up and wants to get a handle on the process, but just wondering if it really needs to be “fixed”...

Edited August 16, 2019 by jrizzell
Grammar

[Bode]

That’s actually pretty awesome, in my opinion. Disagree with the action, but at least he’s got the balls to get out there and defend it.

What exactly do you disagree with?
As a prior UPT guy the quality of product from AMC was pretty bad over the last year. I had one guy roll in and his indoc took 5x the average. As a qualified pilot he circled to the wrong runway. Multiple times he tried to get his TI IP violated because he didn’t know what he was doing.
A second guy at the same time, showed up with 3 Q-3s on his record. Ironically, he should have been given one at PIT as they wrote on the form 8 his deviations, which exceeded Q-2 standards for BAC. Still was a Q-1 overall.

Both guys received waivers to go to PIT. I know both of them had multiple issues when they finally hit the line including breaking aircraft.

I think a better look at the waivers and process will help cut some of that out AND make it easier for PIT to give the UPT bases a better quality product. In turn, we have better instructors to create a better product for the FTUs.


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[Danger41]

4 minutes ago, Bode said:

What exactly do you disagree with?
As a prior UPT guy the quality of product from AMC was pretty bad over the last year. I had one guy roll in and his indoc took 5x the average. As a qualified pilot he circled to the wrong runway. Multiple times he tried to get his TI IP violated because he didn’t know what he was doing.
A second guy at the same time, showed up with 3 Q-3s on his record. Ironically, he should have been given one at PIT as they wrote on the form 8 his deviations, which exceeded Q-2 standards for BAC. Still was a Q-1 overall.

Both guys received waivers to go to PIT. I know both of them had multiple issues when they finally hit the line including breaking aircraft.

I think a better look at the waivers and process will help cut some of that out AND make it easier for PIT to give the UPT bases a better quality product. In turn, we have better instructors to create a better product for the FTUs.


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I disagree with the blanket denial of guys that aren’t 11F or 11B to teach T-38’s at UPT. I agree with the action of not auto approving waivers for shitty pilots (that it sounds like you ran into). I’ll admit, I didn’t know that was the situation with new IP’s coming to 38’s. From where I’m at, the guys my community (or I should at least say my former squadron, can’t speak for everyone) were 11S straight out of UPT and are fantastic aviators. There’s a guy now in the PIT pipeline for T-38’s that got sent to T-6’s even though he won every award at UPT and was the #1 grad. He chose U-28’s. That sort of thing is where my frustration comes from. 

[zachbar]

21 minutes ago, Bode said:

What exactly do you disagree with?
As a prior UPT guy the quality of product from AMC was pretty bad over the last year. I had one guy roll in and his indoc took 5x the average. As a qualified pilot he circled to the wrong runway. Multiple times he tried to get his TI IP violated because he didn’t know what he was doing.
A second guy at the same time, showed up with 3 Q-3s on his record. Ironically, he should have been given one at PIT as they wrote on the form 8 his deviations, which exceeded Q-2 standards for BAC. Still was a Q-1 overall.

Both guys received waivers to go to PIT. I know both of them had multiple issues when they finally hit the line including breaking aircraft.

I think a better look at the waivers and process will help cut some of that out AND make it easier for PIT to give the UPT bases a better quality product. In turn, we have better instructors to create a better product for the FTUs.


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👆This. Not an isolated experience. 

Edit: I think we as an Air Force started speeding with good intentions of alleviating the pilot shortage. Fortunately I actually feel like some of the trends are being reversed at the lower levels because the IPs are being heard  

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by zachbar

[FLEA]

Part of the problem is a lot of communities don't send their best and brightest to UPT must-fills, and commanders have leaned on auto approval of waivers to push a guy that needed more development over his golden children he wanted to keep around. But who can blame commanders for this when AETC notoriously does a poor job of taking care of some folks from other communities. 

[zachbar]

17 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Part of the problem is a lot of communities don't send their best and brightest to UPT must-fills, and commanders have leaned on auto approval of waivers to push a guy that needed more development over his golden children he wanted to keep around. But who can blame commanders for this when AETC notoriously does a poor job of taking care of some folks from other communities. 

Part of it too is that the Air Force doesn’t value white jet IP experience, but it should. I was an AMC IP before I got to UPT, and being an IP here is way more demanding. I think the consequences of failure are higher and more immediate in AMC (more expensive plane with more people on it, cargo doesn’t get delivered), but the chance of something going wrong is more likely when the enemy is sitting in the front cockpit every time you go fly. I’ll put it this way, I was more certain of making it home every night in AMC than I am now. 

[viper154]

1 hour ago, Bode said:

What exactly do you disagree with?
As a prior UPT guy the quality of product from AMC was pretty bad over the last year. I had one guy roll in and his indoc took 5x the average. As a qualified pilot he circled to the wrong runway. Multiple times he tried to get his TI IP violated because he didn’t know what he was doing.
A second guy at the same time, showed up with 3 Q-3s on his record. 

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What’s been the ratio of non 11F/B that have sucked as bad as your examples compared to those that have done fine or needed just a little extra with Tac form/other 38 specific things? 

 

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

Part of the problem is a lot of communities don't send their best and brightest to UPT must-fills, 

This isn’t an AF specific problem. The Navy looks down, long term promotion/career wise, on the guys who teach primary/advanced (UPT).

It creates the ultimate boot-loop; send lower quality guys to teach, teaching new kids to fly is looked down as a second tier job, so the instructors ultimately promote at a much lower rate. Commanders end up sending their lower quality guys because they probably won’t promote. Repeat.

At the end of the day, the harsh truth is quality suffers, even if the dudes teaching are good dudes.

The biggest heartache is the dudes that are good and want to go teach and do a helluva job at it, but get caught in mix. 

[BashiChuni]

2 hours ago, Danger41 said:

There’s a guy now in the PIT pipeline for T-38’s that got sent to T-6’s even though he won every award at UPT and was the #1 grad. He chose U-28’s. That sort of thing is where my frustration comes from. 

a bro intervened on his behalf, and said dude had a face to face with gen wills (who had his FEF), interviewed w/ the general, and was re-instated to t-38 PIT.

i'm impressed. 

met the general in a bar a few months ago and he was GREAT. there is hope...

[BADFNZ]

Wills was the DLF WG/CC back in 2008ish (years run together since I was there for 5).  He seemed like a good dude then and it's good to see he's trying to make it right.  I don't necessarily have an issue with his policy, I have a problem with the execution.  If this is the new norm, however, where will these extra 11F/Bs come from to fill the cockpits?

[Fuzz]

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

Part of the problem is a lot of communities don't send their best and brightest to UPT must-fills, and commanders have leaned on auto approval of waivers to push a guy that needed more development over his golden children he wanted to keep around. But who can blame commanders for this when AETC notoriously does a poor job of taking care of some folks from other communities. 

AETC wants it's cake and to eat it too. We (C-17s) have just enough experienced IPs to keep our crew force current and in a acceptably proficient state to meet current deployment requirements. We can't give up 4-6 experienced ACs/IPs every PCS cycle to fill AETC's insane must fill bill. It is a vicious cycle but when there are real world users that need support day in and day out, AETC is going to get the people we can do without.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Fuzz

[Bode]

What’s been the ratio of non 11F/B that have sucked as bad as your examples compared to those that have done fine or needed just a little extra with Tac form/other 38 specific things? 
 

Honestly it’s about 80/20, with the heavier side being guys who need additional training out of PIT. I believe that ratio will flip as PIT is being forced to bring their training requirements back up. The OBOGS stand down really hurt the T6 IP force as guys showed up having never flown ET3, were not proficient in close form to the point I wouldn’t want them on my wing in the WX. Prior to the summer of ‘17 the product and pilot performance was pretty solid. I can’t speak too much about what transpired between the spring of ‘17 and summer of ‘18 unless you want to talk about the ignorance of the SAF/IA office thinking UH-60s can replace Mi-17s and AC-208s being an effective asset in Afghanistan.


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[zachbar]

14 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

AETC wants it's cake and to eat it too. We (C-17s) have just enough experienced IPs to keep our crew force current and in a acceptably proficient state to meet current deployment requirements. We can't give up 4-6 experienced ACs/IPs every PCS cycle to fill AETC's insane must fill bill. It is a vicious cycle but when there are real world users that need support day in and day out, AETC is going to get the people we can do without.

Real question and not sarcasm, but didn’t the C-17 community shed a ton of pilots to UPT a few years ago right after upgrading them to AC? Was that because of squadrons closing down?

[FLEA]

The problem is cyclicle. You need UPT IPs to make MWS pilots. You need MWS pilots to make MWS ACs. You need MWS ACs to make UPT IPs. You don't fix one area without fixing all of it. 

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

The problem is cyclicle. You need UPT IPs to make MWS pilots. You need MWS pilots to make MWS ACs. You need MWS ACs to make UPT IPs. You don't fix one area without fixing all of it. 

Wait...I thought we fixed the pilot problem. 

[jazzdude]

Real question and not sarcasm, but didn’t the C-17 community shed a ton of pilots to UPT a few years ago right after upgrading them to AC? Was that because of squadrons closing down?

Yeah, combination of closing squadrons and adjusting the crew ratio down and boom, C-17 is over manned and can send a bunch of people to UPT. However, the airlift requirement didn't go down, so it got busier in the C-17 community.

[pawnman]

10 hours ago, Bode said:

A second guy at the same time, showed up with 3 Q-3s on his record. Ironically, he should have been given one at PIT as they wrote on the form 8 his deviations, which exceeded Q-2 standards for BAC. Still was a Q-1 overall. 


That doesn't sound like a problem with AMC pilots in general.  That sounds like someone flicked a booger onto UPT.

Do you think an F-16 guy with 3 Q-3s on his record would have done better at PIT?  

[SFG]

5 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Wait...I thought we fixed the pilot problem. 

Leveled off from our max rate emergency descent... but the stud hasn’t pushed power back up from idle yet so someone is going to have to take the controls soon. Rapidly losing flying airspeed. Add bonus. I mean, power.

[SFG]

10 hours ago, zachbar said:

Part of it too is that the Air Force doesn’t value white jet IP experience, but it should. I was an AMC IP before I got to UPT, and being an IP here is way more demanding. I think the consequences of failure are higher and more immediate in AMC (more expensive plane with more people on it, cargo doesn’t get delivered), but the chance of something going wrong is more likely when the enemy is sitting in the front cockpit every time you go fly. I’ll put it this way, I was more certain of making it home every night in AMC than I am now. 

Didn’t the AF just say something about how White jet is going to be highly valued now and a virtual requirement for higher leadership?

[Danger41]

They said that they want to value teaching at ROTC and USAFA much higher and for it to look favorably on records. We’ll see how that plays out.