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I’ve always enjoyed making jokes about C-17s landing at wrong airports, or not putting their gear down. But the fact that a crew took off with 800 passengers, and I heard others did that same with numbers in the 600’s is truly heroic stuff. You are all a credit to America, and the USAF, your actions represent the best of us. I can’t even begin to imagine the chaos, and literal life and death decisions you were forced to make. Thank you, and well done! But that doesn’t begin to describe the accolades you deserve. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

When this shit show ends, and we start talking about Awards and Citations, the arm chair reviewers better just shut the F up and forward the DFCs for the people over there right now to do this last heavy lifting. You’re taking a vulnerable cargo aircraft into a chaotic situation at best, parking it in front of ever Afghan who wants to escape and loading pax/refueling while the security perimeter hopefully lasts. This is some Berlin airlift worth shit for our Cargo and heavy Helo brethren and it damn sure needs to be recognized as one of the bright spots in this total F up. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The 2312 number is contentious. It doesn't include contractors or combat related suicides (which are almost 10 times the number of casualties), but for the sake of argument we'll go with 2312. I could be convinced that those numbers of casualties are worth it, if that was it. But in addition to those deaths, do you also think it was worth the $2,260,000,000,000 dollars and twenty lost years of military modernization in reference to actual peer power competitors i.e. China/Russia? https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/military/killed https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/oct/27/donald-trump/did-us-spend-6-trillion-middle-east-wars/ The PLA alone has already caught up, in unclassified reports, in Ships, Missiles, and Air Defenses, among more. In many Rand studies, we have lost significant ground in dozens of areas that we had a significant advantage in only 20 years ago. https://www.rand.org/paf/projects/us-china-scorecard.html https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_briefs/RB9800/RB9858z1/RAND_RB9858z1.pdf For reference, with $2.26T, we could have bought an entire new additional fighter platform fleet analogous to the F-35 from cradle to grave, lasting until 2070 (including development/test/operations/sustainment). https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2021-06-01/The-F-35-Joint-Strike-Fighter-the-costliest-weapon-system-in-US-military-history-now-faces-pushback-in-Congress-1618847.html You could have bought over 17 entire carrier battle groups + air wings + personnel and operated them literally every day for 50 years. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA575866.pdf You could have modernized to actually fight against the IADS, the J-20, chinese satellites, the cyber threats, anti-ship missiles, etc. We could have technologies that are relevant to peer competition. We could have replaced the E-3, the A-10, the B-52, the F-16, the EC-130, the RC-135, the AC-130, the MQ-9, the B-1, etc. The army could have upgraded the patriot. The marines and army could have developed modernized fires systems. You could have modernized our outdated nuclear triad. We could have developed hypersonics on parity with our competitors. https://jamestown.org/program/chinas-hypersonic-missiles-methods-and-motives/ But instead we decided to try to wipe out an ideology that killed 3000 American civilians. And it didn't just stop with Afghanistan - it brought us to Iraq and Syria. I have to admit, some of those sorties seemed deeply satisfying to me, at first. It felt like I was making a difference. But every year that I was there, I realized more and more that we were getting nothing done. One poignant example was fencing in to fight a faction that, only a few years ago, I was defending. That wasn't just a single event, either. If that's not an operational/strategic miscalculation, I don't know what is. I can agree with some folks on here that want to point out that we were successful tactically and operationally. Some really smart tacticians/operations commanders did a good job of fighting a conventional war against an unconventional combatant. But to say we had any clear strategic or grand strategy victories in the middle east is a huge stretch. FFS, we let Russia invade Crimea, and we pretended like it didn't happen. In the end in the middle east, we didn't just give away the 7000+ uniformed deaths, the 8000+ contractor deaths, and the 30000+ military suicides after coming back home. We gave away an unfathomable amount of money, our advantage in the future fight, and a huge portion of our strategic influence. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/military/killed

There will be many who blame Biden for the Taliban taking over Afghanistan, I personally think that was inevitable, regardless of who was in the chair when we left. But leaving THOUSANDS of Americans stranded, that falls 100% on his administration. They’re charged with protecting our governmental civilians serving their country. The lack of planning is truly astonishing. I’m hoping they make it out safely. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

All I know is that I keep seeing videos that have thousands of military aged males in Afghanistan who should pick up a f****ng gun and actually fight for their country and families.

Some interesting takes on this forum. I’ll pitch in to the fight, not that what I think matters one bit. Most of you are younger than me, most of you have known nothing but a career of war, many of you are sick of the endless deployments and time away from your family. I get that, but I hope as military professionals your optic is not solely at the tactical level and how it impacts just you. As an O-6 I was often asked to speak at Weapons School and other leadership forums. I used to ask the audience how long they had been serving and the duration of this conflict came home when a "kid" in the audience told me he was in second grade when 9/11 happened. The past almost 20 years in Afghanistan will be dissected for centuries to come. Historians will write papers on every detail from the initial invasion to the chaos as we ran away in the middle of the night. For some of you (and for me), there will be deep feelings about what has happened and the way it went down. In reflection there are numerous questions to ask; Should be have been in Afghanistan in the first place, was our strategy correct, what did we do right, what did we do wrong, why did we leave the way we did. There will be endless debate on each point, there will be no right or wrong answers. As I watch these events, I’ve tried to look back on the last 20 years remembering the context of the situation at the time decisions were made rather than be jaundice by knowing the outcome. The first question is should we have been there. Put aside the patriot surge of emotions and quest for vengeance after 9/11, there was a logical reason to go into Afghanistan. Horrible people set up terror camps to training in Afghanistan and attack us at home. Perhaps we could have sat back and tried to bomb them into oblivion, but given the context of the day that wasn’t going to happen. The vast majority of this country wanted to invade Afghanistan...not because of fake or not fake WMD but because that was where the bad guys who attacked us were...(yes there is much that is still being covered up about the part the Saudis played). Was our strategy correct? I believe in American Excellence. As messed up as we are at times we still serve as a shining beacon for the rest of the world. That being said, not everyone wants democracy and we can’t seem to accept them some people don’t want to do the hard world that it takes to be free and live a life of self-determination. We put PRTs all over the place and tried to build schools and wells, but we rotated people in and out and changed our strategy with each new administration and each new commander. We build outposts of presence in places like the Korengal Valley, begging the Taliban to come fight then tore it down and moved away like it never mattered we were there. We build them most advanced CAS stack in the world and became highly efficient at killing bad guy in close proximity to friendly forces. We built an RPA enterprise that existed to hunt and kill bad people. We patrolled villages and met with elders to assure them we were there to help and for the duration. We did all of these things and so much more and yet we still lost. Should we have left, in my opinion no. I am sure that will anger some but at least listen to my reasoning. For the last 20 years we have had relative peace at home…why is that? Has our protection at the border been that much better than it was on 9/11? There is my opinion a very simple answer and a Machiavellian strategy that we successfully employed in Afghanistan…simply put…we fought them there so we wouldn’t have to fight them here. Afghanistan (and Iraq…and Syria), was the flame to which the evil moths were drawn. The enemy sought to defeat the Americans on the battlefield, wear them down, end their imperial invasion. Whether it was to establish a caliphate, protect ancient lands or to fight on their terms, they ran to the sound of our guns. You know when folks in that part of the world watch Star Wars, we are the empire. Our strategy was rooted in a grand strategy used in World War One…bleed them dry. At horrific battle sites like Verdun the point was never to take territory or advance the front, it was simply to kill as many of on the other side as possible. In fact, the strategy was summed up in a common phrase of the day, Bleed them white.” I would argue it worked. The 2312 Americans who died in Afghanistan bought us 20 years of relative peace at home. In grand strategy terms, a small price to pay. Now that the flame has gone out in Afghanistan we should ask some very important questions and I don’t think we will like the answers. Do you think peace is going to break out?...no more deployments…all is going to be great…candy canes and unicorns right? Are they (and others), emboldened to come after us now that they defeated us over there? What is our standing in the world community? We literally ran away in the middle of the night. Will anyone ever trust us again? We abandoned them, anyone who ever helped us will most certainly pay a horrible price, what lesson did that teach the rest of the world. I crossed that fence 179 times and if I close my eyes I can still hear the sounds, I can smell the cordite, I can hear the voices on the radio, I can hear the guns firing and I can still see the sights 20 years later. Afghanistan will be with me until I die, it is the same for many of you. Whatever your views I pray that each and every one of you who set foot in the country or flew missions over it will find perspective and peace. Afghanistan, where all great empires go to die.

We can always impeach Orange Man again! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's how the music stopped...we left a tape recorder playing, gathered our instruments and slipped off the stage thinking no one would notice. Absolute chaos!

For obvious reasons. But he won’t. Gotta secure that lucrative post military defense contracting gig.

Not sure I'm looking to take advice about governance from a traitor.

SECDEF/JCS/SECSTATE need to resign or be fucking fired SOMEONE needs to be held accountable for this shit show

The overnight and relatively surprise shutting down of Bagram was likely a significant part in the collapse and not just because of the lack of force available. If you're an Afghan soldier and you just saw the superpower that has been propping up your government for the last 20 years effectively sneak away in the middle of the night, I'd question my future. If I was intentionally trying to set up the Afghan government to fail on my way out, I think this is exactly the way I would do it.

As a total REMF who could recite the AUAB DFAC menu back in the day, I've always felt a little unworthy speaking up about AFG. I've barely set foot there, and never outside Bagram. So I respectfully defer to all those who genuinely expended their blood, sweat and tears for years in that God-forsaken landscape trying to train the locals and make something out of nothing. I have a hard time believing, however, that somewhere, somehow, there wasn't a better COA than this. I want to believe that with approx 10K troops and a few fighter squadrons, we could have held Kabul/Bagram and a few cities in perpetuity as a sanctuary for those who didn't want to live under these lunatics, especially the women. Yeah, being there forever sucks, and it's expensive, but there's a lot to be said for having a huge spec ops footprint right there in the belly of the beast. I guess if the Taliban realized we didn't intend to leave, however, the last few years would have looked a lot different.

The lack of planning for this one is truly astonishing. Pack up and leave during the height of the fighting season when the enemy is strongest. Why not wait till winter when they all head to Pakistan? Oh wait, because someone wants to establish the final day on 11 Sept. How ironic when that day comes and the Taliban plant that flag atop the US embassy. The long term negative optics on this will be painful

The State Department and Department of Defense said in a statement Sunday that there are “thousands” of Americans stranded in Afghanistan after the Taliban declared victory over the U.S.-backed government earlier in the day. At least we don't have any more mean tweets.

History is something. I guess I’d describe it as eerie. Chaplain G. H. Gleig, British Army, 1843 after returning from fighting in Afghanistan for the previous 3 years, had this to say: “A war begun for no wise purpose, carried on with a strange mixture of rashness and timidity, brought to a close after suffering and disaster, without much glory attached either to the government which directed, or the great body of troops which waged it. Not one benefit, political or military, was acquired with this war.” A mere 30 years later, Britain thought about going back. One of the army soldiers who had been taken hostage during hostilities wrote an article to the British papers urging caution: “A new generation has arisen which, instead of profiting from the solemn lessons of the past, is willing and eager to embroil us in the affairs of that turbulent and unhappy country ... The disaster of Retreat from Kabul should stand forever a warning to the Statesmen of the future not to repeat the policies that bore such bitter fruit in 1839-42.”

Let's be honest. This end-state for AFG was inevitable and was/is/has been a foregone conclusion. The notion that we were going to install a democracy there was absurd from day one. Period. Root cause = we defined success to be an unachievable goal from "go" - hence failure. It really is that simple. It's not Biden's fault we lost. It's not Trump's fault we lost. It's not Obama's fault we lost. It is Biden's fault we are losing in such an embarrassingly avoidable manner, however. That *is* his fault. We should be losing more gracefully.

To think that the "country" of Afghanistan, made up of some 50 dialects and numerous tribes and villages, would somehow embrace twenty-first century democratic governance...is a bit flawed. Our military did just about everything asked of it at the tactical and operational levels...from counterterrorism, intel, local stability ops, close air support, airlift, provincial reconstruction, logistics, etc. The broader strategy was a farce. We ousted al Qaeda and crippled the Taliban in short order. It took 10 years, but we got bin Laden (in Pakistan, go figure). But we evolved and expanded objectives foolishly. Rebuilding Afg, installing democratic governance, and the like. What we should have realized is that Afghanistan is not so much of a country, but a place simply bounded by other sovereign borders. Its mostly tribes, living in an ancient, almost savage like subsistence. Vulnerable to takeover by extremists like the Taliban, but incapable of modern governance, foreign to human rights and civil liberties. Its painful to think of the handful of decent people there who, for a fleeting moment grasped some form of western ideal. The young women and children who saw a glimmer of hope in that they might be treated as equals, and have some form of opportunity without violent oppression. All if this overshadowed by an arcane savagery, cowardice, or ambivalence in the face of the Taliban. While I feel sorrow for some, I am nearly indifferent to the many who are indifferent themselves. Beyond political struggle, economic development, and social progress is one immovable hegemon: culture. Their culture, to the extent it can be defined...sucks. If you were to find a bum on the side of the road and place him into Harvard Medical School, what would happen? To think a western coalition, in a matter of two decades would transform Afghanistan into a modern democracy is a fools errand. The world is a strange place.

The aircrew will be fine. I hope they will also be fine mentally and remember that they got it done in the craziest conditions possible. They were in an absolutely impossible situation and got the jet home safe along with way more rescued people than anyone could have ever reasonably expected. Pretty sure it isn't aircrews job to establish a security perimeter around the airplane during a literal apocalyptic fall of a country. And at the end of it all they will have the craziest airline interview answer for "tell me about a time when you.."

Decent military leader, but not someone I care about when it comes to American government. George Washington sure was a traitor...to England. Not to America. And if I lived in the Confederate States of America and owned some black folks, maybe I'd think Lee was a swell guy. All I see is someone who fought for the right to own human beings.

I realize there are some Bush era neocon types that are still making the rounds on the news saying we should be staying in Afghanistan. But it was puzzling to me that the majority of the focus of the President's speech was on reinforcing why we should leave Afghanistan, and not on the shit show that developed over the weekend and the obvious fact that there was zero plan in place should the Afghan govt/military collapse overnight; something anyone with half a brain knew was a highly likely outcome.

“The Afghan Security Forces have the capacity to sufficiently fight and defend their country…” - Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, July 21, 2021.

You know I’d Trump had been in Maralago during something like this the media wouldn’t have shut up about it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nice of the president to take the time from his vacation to comment on this

This is the sad part. I agree with you 100%. It’s just a question of how much money, time, and national effort is it worth it to stop it? Where is it on the priority list? It’s easy to argue that it hasn’t been worth the opportunity cost. I bet America will be attacked again in the next decade. Probably smaller scale attacks within the next year or two even. But we need to keep our wits about us and not have overly emotional responses. That, from a grand strategy perspective, is how we manage this. Easier said than done, especially when 90% of America has been relatively unaware of and uninvested in what we have been doing in the Middle East. They have been conditioned to think that we can throw only a few resources - almost imperceptible to them - at the problem and make it go away. But we can no longer make these problems just “out of sight out of mind” for the average American by just spending our treasure. Time for America to do some soul searching and figure out what they want - and they is not just the Joint Chiefs, the Combatant Commanders, the SecDEF - it’s the average American taxpayer. No one wants to pay more taxes. No one wants to reduce domestic freedoms. No one wants terrorist attacks in America. No one wants to go to war. No one wants soldiers to die. Until we actually embrace the options as a nation and come to a common sight picture, we aren’t accomplishing anything other than option 1: 1) A gradual decline internationally, but one in which the average person doesn’t think about terrorism very much as we ignore the Russia/China competition (what we have been doing the last 20 years) 2) A situation where we as Americans basically double the military budget and manpower so we can stay in the Middle East while still fighting China/Russia (which actually isn’t as unrealistic as some people may initially think - our military spending to GDP ratio is actually pretty low compared to history, e.g. a third of what it was in Korea), at the cost of significantly increase taxes and reduced standard of living 3) One where we prioritize grand strategic competition at the cost of increased domestic terror attacks. Taxes don’t increase much, but explosions on and nearby America probably do. This or #2 are my vote. 4) Some combination, potentially including reduction of domestic freedoms to deal with the inability to increase spending - this is the least likely in my opinion The average American has to be invested in this or it has to stop, is the blunt truth. My pragmatic worldview is that the mil and Civ sectors have been so disjointed that we have made bad policy with no one really at the wheel to check whether we are giving the nation what it actually wants. I would offer that we are not, especially in regards to China/Russia. This is a step towards righting that. If we really want, we can go take Kabul again next year. But we really have to want it among all of our priorities. I’m telling you one thing. I don’t want to go back ever again and hear an O-6, O-8, or O-9 tell me “We aren’t sure what victory looks like, just keep doing what you’re doing.” I heard that half a dozen times at the CAOC, and it’s sickening.

Entirely possible but concur with @jrizzell that it was inevitable, the end of a non-Taliban dominated Afghanistan, but the implosion and ignominious retreat was preventable. What I am 10,690% in agreement with you is the utter and total shit show the evac has been. In July there were assurances that things won't fall apart immediately when we fall back, they knew that was bullshit so why weren't we ready? Why wasn't the last month(s) just a stream of airlifters and ground convoys getting our people and shit out? If there is no accountability for this we are even worse off culturally and spiritually than I feared. Returning to your point on violence exporting from a renewed Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, while this is a risk the counter terrorism fight now has to focus mainly on the homeland(s) of the what remains of the West. We tried making their societies like ours, that has not worked. We need to affirm and protect ours, that is a feasible strategy. Super tight borders, extreme vetting to prevent infiltrators, visa requirements and internal tracking of travelers from suspect regions, heavy exchange of intel with trustworthy nations and no squeamish-ness on profiling of communities that whether we want to admit or not sometimes and some in them harbor, nurture, support or spawn terrorists who attack the nations that took them in.

This one's on CENTCOM as the COCOM. JCS probably had little to no influence on the operational planning for the evacuation. But there won't be any accountability there either.

The end result was never going to change no matter who was in charge. im talking about this cluster f of getting our people out. He’s jcs chairman he’s responsible. And if the civilian leadership didn’t listen to his advice he should have resigned in protest.

Just because it's no one's fault doesn't mean no one is responsible. If you lose a war, maybe we don't want you in charge of fighting the next one.

One thing is certain…I know I’ve lost more freedoms and liberties due to my own government than I have due to the Taliban.

800 pax (I'm sure many without IDs) all trying to clear customs at the Died? Cue the Benny Hill theme!

Concur with you on your point(s). I would add that I respect @ClearedHot's opinion and read it and mulled on it for a while, I don't agree with it but I could not figure the why and I think I have it now. The argument for remaining is to defend an order, an idea for a world that no longer exists, that is a Pax Americana world order where we are the guarantor in many places for ideas, values, systems that we like and promote and want others to embrace but can't take root. It's the order we thought would last forever plus a day at the end of the Cold War beginning of the 90's when we believed our power was infinite. Serbia and the ethnic wars of South-Eastern Europe with our mixed results for what we were willing to commit to and convince our Allies to do should have warned us that there is only so much you can do, even as rich and as powerful as you are. The world where we go anywhere and bear any burden is gone, not because that is not a good or noble idea just one that we as a nation, not as individuals, are not willing to pay for, to sacrifice for, to discipline ourselves for. We are just not that nation, not saying we are a bad nation now, we've changed. We have less cohesion, spiritual reserves and excess material resources to use to help others when it is not in our material national interest. The Serenity Prayer is what we need now and going forward as we deal with the world. That is not proof of no major attacks in the US because of Iraq / Afghanistan / Libya / Syria. There were attacks in the UK and Europe and attempts in the US with some minor attacks. Is it because they were all "over there" or because the FBI plus others were using the Patriot Act plus much more aggressive technological means to disrupt cells & plots before they grew to fruition? The wars following 911 distracted some terrorists but not all to attempting to attack the US homeland, it surely dissuaded some nations from overtly / tacitly supporting them and or neutrally allowing them to operate / prepare on their territory but

I don’t buy into the fight them over there ideology. I’ve never seen any empirical proof. There have been plenty of threats that have emerged in the states (not to be scale of 9/11) that have emerged from other places. Not to mention our Saudi “friends” have more responsibility in 9/11 than merely the geography of Afghanistan. The fight them over there so we don’t fight them here seems to be a justification for a sunk cost.

Well said. Tactically, Afghanistan was lost on the very first battle. Strategically, it’s never been more important than now. In the 14 years between my first and last deployment there, nothing changed, except China became more influential. Our biggest weakness is our cultural intolerance to play the long game. This is the root cause of all of our military losses.

I hear ya but they’ve got different goals Them - Acquire wealth and power without giving a shit about anything else or how Us - Fix everything and make everyone nice immediately We’re kinda at a disadvantage Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can I get a “Hey!” from my fellow “terrorists?”

NFW! I'm as cynical/jaded as anyone out there, but I can't believe this is true. I'm going to believe that it's just a normal investigation to get the facts of the issue. If it is true...I hope every pilot/load throws their wings on the bosses desk.

Also wouldn't work because we weren't really fighting this war anyway. Playing this onesie-twosie, whack-a-mole bullshit was never going to work. Also, people who think the Afghan war has only cost us 2,300 lives, are off their fucking rockers!

So you have a problem with getting an American out of Kabul?

Good lord. The only thing missing in the instructions is the requirement for a negative COVID test.

Can’t wait for the value-added comments he’ll provide. I get hard thinking about the heroism and “get it done” shit that’s occurred in past couple of days. Bravo Zulu to everybody actually getting it done.

Of all these videos of the chaos at the airport, I dont blame them for desperately trying to flee for their lives. However, I dont think I see any women or kids in these images. I hope I am wrong and they made it out but the pure optics are they were left behind for the Taliban which is terrible. For those that are in their late 30's-mid 40's many of us joined to fight after 9/11. Early on we all knew it was a shit show with no real plan but we all wanted to take the fight to them. Now 20 years later, the Taliban is back, possibly stronger with Chinese support. Looking back I think many would have made different life decisions.

Woke up this morning to videos of people falling off of C-17s mid-flight (after hanging onto the outside of the aircraft no less). I am literally speechless after seeing that. I've been to AFG a couple of times (with one tour on the USFOR-A staff) ... I understand how difficult it is to plan anything over there. Based upon the news/images/videos coming out of AFG it almost appears as if we totally assumed away our force protection and left that for the AFG government to handle. What does it say about the plan when POTUS has to get involved and order troops back into country to provide security? Somebody should be held accountable ... agree that they probably won't. The "beautiful people" will receive their Legions of Merit while the troops on the ground (pilots, SOF, Marines, etc.) are forced to execute this completely feckless plan.

I understood your drift, I just don't think secure borders align with any part of our current administration's thought process.

I think plenty of people on this board made that assessment long ago. Working with them was like being the puppeteer and making them think they were doing it.

John Kirby is definitely the new Baghdad Bob August 14th [/url] John Kirby: "There is no intention right now to close the embassy…The situation in Kabul is calm right now." August 15th John Kibry: “Kabul is not, right now, in an imminent threat environment.”

White House just outed members of the CIA, on Twitter, out of sheer incompetence, on top of one of the most humiliating days in the last 20 years: https://twitter.com/thomasbsauer/status/1427001051249512448?s=20

Yep, only Ghenghis Khan subdued Afghanistan and he did that with mass slaughter. That isn't an option in this day and age and it would ultimately be counterproductive. Afghanistan should have just been a series of raids to get OBL and the Taliban elite, not boots on the ground.

This right here is why we choose to stay in places we shouldn’t be in…”If only we killed more military aged men”, then we would have turned the tide to support America… Every drone strike that killed innocent civilians, created 10 new enemies, it was never going to end like we choose. We went to Afghanistan to avenge 9/11 and got stuck in nation building, all while we got sidetracked in WMD Iraq war. It’s a massive shit sandwich with no good outcomes, unless we we’re willing to be a indefinite occupier.