Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

[SocialD]

12 hours ago, Scooter14 said:

Back about 7-8 years ago in my ANG unit we experienced what became known locally as the “Techsodus”…a mass exit of many of our Air Reserve Technician pilots to seemingly greener airline pastures.

...words words words...

Bottom line - the airlines are a great deal, but it’s not for everyone and if someone’s beliefs, goals or family situation dictates that it’s better to stay on Active Duty, they shouldn’t automatically be vilified for that decision.

 

 

I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent.  But having lived both lives, I understand how much better it can be.  When I was full time, I didn't realize how much it consumed my life.  We give up things that the vast majority of the U.S. couldn't fathom, because we think it's normal...it is not.

 

I don't shit on them for staying, you're right, someone has to do it...or they could rotate to the airline then back onto orders as desired.  Shit will get done eventually.  However, I'll certainly show them how much better my life is now vs. when I was full time.  Lots of squadron mates who said they'd never go to the airlines, are now at the airlines and are kicking themselves for not going earlier.  

[herkbum]

 
 

 
In the ANG, you also have the BAO gig, which can be a legit opportunity for the family to experience a sleepy overseas assignment.  If I hadn't been trying to get hours ASAP for the airlines, I'd have gladly done the BAO gig for our state partner...2-3 years in Budapest doesn't sound all that bad.  I know another guy who did 2-3 years in Tallinn, Estonia who had a ball.  Having spent 3+ months in Tallinn, I'd have gladly spent 3+ years there.  

I did a 2 year BAO stint in Sofia and loved it. I also kept flying but had to drop a few quals to maintain currency. Also met my wife there, luckily she’s an American. I always recommend the tour to folks.


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[Mark1]

4 hours ago, SocialD said:

We give up things that the vast majority of the U.S. couldn't fathom, because we think it's normal...it is not.

I see this sentiment on BaseOps frequently.  This won't win any popularity contests around here, but it's very naive and unjustifiably self-aggrandizing.  Guys that did 12-20yrs active duty and then go Guard, to the airlines, or slot in as mid level management somewhere and see their QOL improve don't have much perspective on it.   They are not starting over on the civilian side in a way that is comparable to their military career arc.

Yes, the military makes some unique demands.  Yes, a winged officer has to sacrifice more time to their craft than someone working front desk at a hotel or serving at a restaurant.  But those aren't valid comparisons.

Compare a winged Capt to a young professional looking to advance in their field, and neither is walking easy street.  There are plenty of professionals missing their kids activities to work late, putting out fires on the weekend, and facing divorces because they live on the road and never see their families.  Are some skating by on minimal effort.  Yes.  And we all knew a few squadron-mates that fit that description as well.

If you're in a position to be dodging RPGs, scooping your buddies intestines back into his body cavity, and worrying about when roadside bomb roulette is going to catch up with you, then yeah, you've experienced something most can't fathom.  But that applies to almost nobody on this board. 

As far as simple demand on your life, I think you'd be surprised.  I was.  I started at the bottom of a completely novel field of work after getting out, and I'd easily rate my top 5 most stressful and time consuming weeks all on the civilian side.  Not looking for validation or recognition.  Only to say that any view I had of myself as engaged in some Sisyphean struggle when I was active duty, when compared to my civilian peer group, was way off.

If you go from Sq/CC to legacy copilot, then yeah.  But they aren't the same thing.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Mark1

[Neverupgrade]

3 hours ago, Mark1 said:

I see this sentiment on BaseOps frequently.  This won't win any popularity contests around here, but it's very naive and unjustifiably self-aggrandizing.  Guys that did 12-20yrs active duty and then go Guard, to the airlines, or slot in as mid level management somewhere and see their QOL improve don't have much perspective on it.   They are not starting over on the civilian side in a way that is comparable to their military career arc.

Yes, the military makes some unique demands.  Yes, a winged officer has to sacrifice more time to their craft than someone working front desk at a hotel or serving at a restaurant.  But those aren't valid comparisons.

Compare a winged Capt to a young professional looking to advance in their field, and neither is walking easy street.  There are plenty of professionals missing their kids activities to work late, putting out fires on the weekend, and facing divorces because they live on the road and never see their families.  Are some skating by on minimal effort.  Yes.  And we all knew a few squadron-mates that fit that description as well.

If you're in a position to be dodging RPGs, scooping your buddies intestines back into his body cavity, and worrying about when roadside bomb roulette is going to catch up with you, then yeah, you've experienced something most can't fathom.  But that applies to almost nobody on this board. 

As far as simple demand on your life, I think you'd be surprised.  I was.  I started at the bottom of a completely novel field of work after getting out, and I'd easily rate my top 5 most stressful and time consuming weeks all on the civilian side.  Not looking for validation or recognition.  Only to say that any view I had of myself as engaged in some Sisyphean struggle when I was active duty, when compared to my civilian peer group, was way off.

If you go from Sq/CC to legacy copilot, then yeah.  But they aren't the same thing.

I can’t second this enough. I’m a dsg captain and commercial GC. The bs I have to deal with daily in my civilian gig is leaps and bounds worse than what I hear my AGR/Tech friends complain about. 
 

I know the grass is always greener, but I’m jumping on an AGR/Tech gig first chance I can. 

[Scooter14]

 
I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent.  But having lived both lives, I understand how much better it can be.  When I was full time, I didn't realize how much it consumed my life.  We give up things that the vast majority of the U.S. couldn't fathom, because we think it's normal...it is not.
 
I don't shit on them for staying, you're right, someone has to do it...or they could rotate to the airline then back onto orders as desired.  Shit will get done eventually.  However, I'll certainly show them how much better my life is now vs. when I was full time.  Lots of squadron mates who said they'd never go to the airlines, are now at the airlines and are kicking themselves for not going earlier.  

100%.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

I also didn’t realize how much being a fulltimer was consuming me until I left…and my wife and kids told me how much happier I was when I got back from trips. That was eye opening for me as well.

I’m happy to talk to Active Duty folks about the Guard. I’m happy to talk to Full timers about the airlines. My QOL definitely improved when I went AD->ANG and even more so when I went ART->Airlines.

I just do my best to stay objective and not make them feel like their decision is “wrong” if it doesn’t agree with how I personally have done it.


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[DirkDiggler]

On 6/7/2023 at 3:30 PM, Ryder1587 said:

Here’s a serious question.  Why would someone even stay Active Duty after their initial commitment ?  What draw is there ?  I get it for the people who want to lead and are desiring O-6 and beyond. But you can even do that in the Reserves and Guard.  Why would not everyone try to get an AGR gig and pick where you want to live , get the bonus , and have a say in your life ?  I seriously don’t get it.  

Everyone's circumstances are different.

  I'm past 20 years and plan on continuing to stay till 22 (with an exception for possible continued AFSOC 3rd floor dicknannagans).  Serving my country is still a big reason for me getting out of bed every morning.  I genuinely like what I do, what I fly, and the people I serve with.  I have no complaints about pay (I think O-5 pay is pretty good compared to what I grew up with and my wife has a 6 figure job).  Money isn't a primary motivator for me.  

  There's always shitty parts to any job and I get the military is not an easy life.  That said, the AF has afforded me opportunities and experiences I don't believe I would've gotten on the civilian side.  The Guard/Reserve never appealed to me.  I feel like I contribute where I'm at and I have good bosses at the Sq level.  Honestly overall I'm happy with my lot and don't see any reason to pursue different pastures at this time.

One guy's perspective.

[BroncoEN]

Still (official) crickets on the ANG bonus, anyone else receive any official traffic? 

[HookEmAll]

2 hours ago, BroncoEN said:

Still (official) crickets on the ANG bonus, anyone else receive any official traffic? 

It is released. People at my base are signing as of 6 June. Go beat up metaphorically on your FSS for answers. They let our guys backdate to 6 June. 

[Pooter]

The mission and personal sacrifices associated with the mission arent what's driving people out of the Air Force en masse. If you ask, 90+ percent of flyers will tell you they love their mission and it's what gets them up in the morning. It's the mountain of queep and endless administrivia hoops we jump through on a daily basis that sours people on the Air Force. Its the daily grinding against the densest bureaucracy imaginable. 
 

I worked a civilian engineering job for 5 years prior to Air Force life and it was leaps and bounds more focused on my primary duty than the Air Force is focused on me being a CMR CAF pilot.  So we'll play a quick game of civilian world never-have-I-ever. 
 

Never have I ever in my civilian job:

-had a computer that takes 20 minutes to log onto email

-been voluntold to attend and organize social functions in my off time

-DRMO literally anything

-submit my co-workers for 15 categories of awards every quarter with nazi-regime level strictness of the award submissions

-use 1/2 and 1/4 spaces in a document to adhere to writing standards

-do HR functions onboarding/off boarding/ discipline/punishment

-had scheduled PTO cancelled causing me to eat plane ticket and lodging costs

-had my company open a credit card in my name, stipulate what I can use it for, threaten me for not using it, and withhold payment based on an archaic voucher system managed by literal retards.

-had basic structural issues with our office building go un-fixed for years

-been put in charge of entire programs wildly outside my job description

-pulled weeds, mowed grass, and plowed snow around my office building

-done 69 annual CBTs to maintain "readiness"

to name just a very very few.  
 

Most of this stuff just sounds like minor gripes and complaints but the list is endless.  If you have significant private sector experience prior to entering or a spouse you can compare stories with its very very easy to see the insanity of all this crap.  Most dudes won't get that perspective until getting out.  

[SocialD]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:27 AM, Mark1 said:

This won't win any popularity contests around here, but it's very naive and unjustifiably self-aggrandizing.  Guys that did 12-20yrs active duty and then go Guard, to the airlines, or slot in as mid level management somewhere and see their QOL improve don't have much perspective on it.   They are not starting over on the civilian side in a way that is comparable to their military career arc.

Yes, the military makes some unique demands.  Yes, a winged officer has to sacrifice more time to their craft than someone working front desk at a hotel or serving at a restaurant.  But those aren't valid comparisons.

Compare a winged Capt to a young professional looking to advance in their field, and neither is walking easy street.  There are plenty of professionals missing their kids activities to work late, putting out fires on the weekend, and facing divorces because they live on the road and never see their families.  Are some skating by on minimal effort.  Yes.  And we all knew a few squadron-mates that fit that description as well.

If you're in a position to be dodging RPGs, scooping your buddies intestines back into his body cavity, and worrying about when roadside bomb roulette is going to catch up with you, then yeah, you've experienced something most can't fathom.  But that applies to almost nobody on this board. 

As far as simple demand on your life, I think you'd be surprised.  I was.  I started at the bottom of a completely novel field of work after getting out, and I'd easily rate my top 5 most stressful and time consuming weeks all on the civilian side.  Not looking for validation or recognition.  Only to say that any view I had of myself as engaged in some Sisyphean struggle when I was active duty, when compared to my civilian peer group, was way off.

 

 

We're talking different sacrifices here.  Not too many of my high school/college friends who went into the civilian professional world have had their company send them away for months on end.  Most can't even wrap their minds around leaving their family for two weeks at a time, let alone doing it multiple times a year...not long after being gone for 4-6 months.  They rarely (if ever) miss a holiday at home, let alone multiple in a row.  I don't know a single one of them that missed their daughters wedding (not me, but a close friend) because their company sent them short notice on a 6 month business trip and wouldn't excuse them or try to find them a replacement.  Yes we signed up for this, but they're still sacrifices that most in the civilian world will never understand.  That, along with all of what pooter said above, wear on you.  

Edited June 10, 2023 by SocialD

[StoleIt]

44 minutes ago, Pooter said:

The mission and personal sacrifices associated with the mission arent what's driving people out of the Air Force en masse. If you ask, 90+ percent of flyers will tell you they love their mission and it's what gets them up in the morning. It's the mountain of queep and endless administrivia hoops we jump through on a daily basis that sours people on the Air Force. Its the daily grinding against the densest bureaucracy imaginable. 

Mostly agree, but ops tempo and having a predictable schedule also are huge for quality of life. I could not have sustained my life as a tanker toad from 2014-2017. Min dwell between deployments and then red flags shoe horned in between, plus other crap crushed me.

And, even today, if I don't have approved leave on the books then nothing is safe or sacred. There are still many communities running their people to the breaking point.

[Scooter14]

Its the daily grinding against the densest bureaucracy imaginable. 
 

This was my causal factor.


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[Danger41]

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

[UDEL09]

47 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

A lot of 10-12 hour days, last minute weather Evacs, last minute cross country’s to get Stan to graduate on time, and sq leadership that oftentimes caved to OG level pressure to continue to produce more at the expense of IP quality of life. 

[Standby]

58 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

I think most dudes shit talk it because they haven’t actually done it. They’ve heard about it from their buddies friends sisters uncle and perpetuate lies. It’s a daily grind, but a lot of the MWS ancillaries simply don’t exist. There is no pre-deployment WSMR/NAWS/WSEP trip…no flag to participate in…nothing. Sure, you triple turn and fly XC, but you’re smoking crack if you think that keeps you TDY more than an MWS unit.

To take this one step further…I’d wager that 87.69% of the folks who drag XL through the mud couldn’t even find it on the map, let alone have been there. Is Del Rio a garden spot? Not even close. But there are people who complain that the sand in the FL Panhandle was too fine and difficult to wash out of their crusty ass cracks.

@UDEL09I know this is going to sound harsh, but allow me to play you a classical piece on the worlds smallest violin.

[Boomer6]

My personal gripes and those of bros at a UPT base on why these assignments are hated by some:

- terrible schools around UPT bases for their kids

- little to no jobs available for their spouse in the local area unless they want to use their masters degree to steam milk at Starbucks

- DoD level jobs for their spouse…lol 

- the base itself is shitty

- on base housing agency tries to F you at every turn

- timeline rules all, to hell with trying to make students better, just push them through. One size fits all cookie cutter approach to students that are struggling. 

- a syllabus written by absolute retards

- management that doesn’t have the balls to do what’s best for the students/IPs because though that may be best for the AF, it’s not best for the timeline and thus not best for their careers 

- Oh you left the CAF as a 4E/IP, well have fun trying to get back to the TX as a major, unless you want to go to Korea, holoman, eielson, etc. BTW you’re now behind your peers so good luck catching back up as a major and staying in the CAF if that’s what you want.

There’s so much more but it’s Friday and not worth it to keep typing.

 

[raimius]

1 hour ago, Standby said:

I think most dudes shit talk it because they haven’t actually done it. They’ve heard about it from their buddies friends sisters uncle and perpetuate lies. It’s a daily grind, but a lot of the MWS ancillaries simply don’t exist. There is no pre-deployment WSMR/NAWS/WSEP trip…no flag to participate in…nothing. Sure, you triple turn and fly XC, but you’re smoking crack if you think that keeps you TDY more than an MWS unit.

To take this one step further…I’d wager that 87.69% of the folks who drag XL through the mud couldn’t even find it on the map, let alone have been there. Is Del Rio a garden spot? Not even close. But there are people who complain that the sand in the FL Panhandle was too fine and difficult to wash out of their crusty ass cracks.

@UDEL09I know this is going to sound harsh, but allow me to play you a classical piece on the worlds smallest violin.

It is a grind.  

There are fewer additional duties, but plenty of gradebooks to write, or review prior to the student's 88/89, or a sim to run because the civilian sim IP isn't qual'd to teach some sims, or getting a "good deal" XC where you can sit a day in some random city so you aren't "forced" to take a comp day (because who wouldn't want to double turn student sorties for 11 of 12 days?).   Then, get told you aren't producing enough and also need to take more time for "resiliency" (which is mandatory, but also will likely be scheduled over).

 

Is it the worst thing in the world?  Of course not.  Is it way more pain than it should be?  I'm going to go with yes.  

[DuckHunter]

3 hours ago, Danger41 said:

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

Been in for 15 years now, the best job I had thus far was being a UPT Flt/CC.

[Bigred]

On 6/8/2023 at 3:34 PM, Skitzo said:

No more CVs at Hurby soon.


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Just Cannon, OCONUS, and the FTU? Or is there a new CONUS base opening? 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Bigred

[Pooter]

15 hours ago, Danger41 said:

For those staying AD, why is the UPT enterprise so derided? Predictable schedule, not deployments (mostly), fly a lot. Admittedly locations aren’t great but based on the above, why is UPT viewed so negatively?

Location cannot be stressed enough. They're not just not great.. they are in the absolute ass crack of America. And Im not talking about what I've heard, I've been to all the bases and lived at 2 of them.
 

For married folks it's terrible for the spouse and kids. For single folks it's terrible because good luck finding anyone to date other than the #peopleofwalmart locals. 
 

If you're one of those guys who thinks location isn't a big deal or the locations  aren't that bad based on your year and change spent there in UPT 10-15 yrs ago I've got an experiment for you. After work one day sit down with your wife and tell her you got orders to Laughlin. There's nothing you can do, you guys are moving at the end of the summer. See how that conversation goes and then come tell me location isn't a big deal. 

[Standby]

23 minutes ago, Pooter said:

See how that conversation goes and then come tell me location isn't a big deal.

Location isn’t a big deal. Next. 

[artvandelay43201]

56 minutes ago, Standby said:

Location isn’t a big deal. Next. 

Someone likes that Walmart strange

[Standby]

1 hour ago, artvandelay43201 said:

Someone likes that Walmart strange

Pooters challenge was to tell the wife we were going to Laughlin. I did that in 2017. No tears, no whining, no drama.

…I’m not saying I didn’t like the Del Rio Walmart though. 

[di1630]

People complain about the USAF because right now pilots have numerous well paying alternatives.

If the economy goes to hell, the airlines furlough, etc, those same sideline sport b-tcher’s happily resubmit and beg for employment from big blue.

I’ve seen it multiple times in my 23 years.

Right now is unprecedented though. Pilots have a ton of well paying opportunities so it just really comes down to personal priorities (money/family/flying cool jets vs a fat bus etc) and life circumstances.


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[hindsight2020]

So have I. Hell, you want to see Olympic medal level flip flopping, spend a day in a guard reserve unit. I got the lost decade T-shirt, i saw it all from the front row. They make congress sound principled by comparison.

Don't take too long taking out the trash at the squadron, they'll take your AGR and eff your wife in the time it took you to get back in your chair 😆.

 

PS. Im being tongue in cheek, you know i love you 121 folk, blue falcons among you notwithstanding.

Edited June 10, 2023 by hindsight2020