The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, TurnHer4 said:

Excellent question. The answer is the same way you get better at being an aviator. And that's in the debrief. Which is what I think is happening right now on this thread. Take off the rank, biases, etc and have an open discussion. Listening to the feedback and applying it. I say we need to get people to understand that there are those that have hatred in their heart for minorities and non-minorities a like.Racism in most cases is covert and subtle. I ask that when we see it from anyone, squash that shit. I want you to understand my perspective and to not down play the way I view something. You may not every see it, but if and when you do, call it out. I understand what Guardian is saying, and I'll reflect on that. I ask that others do the same with different perspectives.

Likewise.

Conversation is fine but IMO the volume on the side screaming for the conversation is so loud that it doesn't hear the reply to it or doesn't really want to hear what the other side really thinks.  

Decrying racism and racist behavior is fine but it must be equally applied and the reality that we know can not be denied, the why and how to change it is the real tradespace where something can be done. Some can not be a victim, also an equal and in some contexts a bit better, we either truly believe others are equals or not, there is no path forward where we are equals some of the time but sometimes not.

That said I also am aware of the reality of the other side, they along with others have not gotten a fair shake and there is a reason for them to agitate for change.  Anodyne way to describe America's situation with our historical legacies but it is an acknowledgement. 

[Homestar]

10 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Also not for nothing, as a member of the national guard, I 100% want the American people to very clearly understand when they are interacting with local or state LEOs, federal LEOs, or my fellow Guardsmen.

This is the crux of the issue for me. Too many law enforcement agencies look like SEAL team 6 out there. It sends the wrong message and blends two VERY different missions in the minds and eyes of the People.

[SocialD]

17 minutes ago, Homestar said:

This is the crux of the issue for me. Too many law enforcement agencies look like SEAL team 6 out there. It sends the wrong message and blends two VERY different missions in the minds and eyes of the People.

 

Apparently, they need LEPs.  May have to check some out from the squadron for my next PDX layover.  

[Homestar]

3 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

Apparently, they need LEPs.  May have to check some out from the squadron for my next PDX layover.  

yeah, that's messed up. They could probably hit up any tanker or bomber squadron for some sweet, lightly-used PLZT goggles

[FLEA]

I think we need to recognize the fact that a lot of this tension is cyclical. The more violent protest/rioters become the more militant the police will become. The more militant the police become, the more violent the protest/rioters become. 

For federal police i don't see OCP's being an issue as a significant portion of their work often takes place in interagency or covert environments that are very paramilitary in nature often with the DoD as well. I believe the photo circulating above is Border Patrol special tactics which makes sense why they would have OCP's given the work they do in counter cartel raids/etc...

I'm also reminded that we, the DoD, sort of asked for this when we told State Department we wouldn't do civil training for Security Force Assistance in Afghanistan and Iraq and deploying as advisors became a key role for federal law enforcement. (Probably the right decision but the ramifications is that Federal law enforcement gained a pretty significant paramilitary mission)

The question of "why are they wearing it here, doing this?" Is probably appropriate. But my guess is the department can't afford 400 sets of uniforms for different environments/seasons/weather like the Navy. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by FLEA

[Guest nsplayr]

There’s been a long discussion over what uniforms police in America should I wear and I fall strongly on the side of as civilianized and non-confrontational as possible while still allowing officers to carry all the gear they need and command the respect they deserve.

@FLEA is spot on saying tension is cyclical and since we can’t control non-organized protesters, let’s do what we can with the folks we can control ie our LEOs and do what’s possible to de-escalate. At the same time let’s also have political and activist leaders call for de-escalation and non-violence as well. You can’t and shouldn’t expect to quell unrest in a democratic republic via crackdowns (eg “dominating the battle space”), it has to be mutual reductions in force and those who are in power and sworn officers of the law should take the lead.

This is a good read on the subject: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-08-18/a-history-of-police-uniforms-and-why-they-matter

I think everyone knows that wearing different clothes makes you feel different. It’s why you dress up for church and “sun’s out, guns out” at the beach and why I at least feel a specific type of aircrew pride throwing on the green bag. For me, it’s even more so in the bag than when wearing the multicam flight suit that IMHO makes us all look like we’re in the Army despite the advantages of the two-piece style while shitting or sweating.

On active duty we were issued combat shirts at one point to pair with body armor and the multicam bottoms and boy did we feel like Billy Badasses despite no actual increase in combat lethality. SEALs of the sky indeed 😅

All that to say: police, even federal LEOs, should wear uniforms that look like civilian police uniforms, especially when patrolling American cities and towns. It actually matters in how the public perceives and treats them. And they should always be identifiable with specific department badges and individual badge or ID numbers if not names. 

If you’re an adviser in Iraq or raiding some cartel safe house on the border or SWAT, it’s a different situation obviously.

Edited July 25, 2020 by nsplayr

[M2]

First, the DoD doesn't have exclusive rights to camouflage uniforms.   

Secondly, anyone who doesn't have firsthand experience of what police officers go through on a daily basis needs to request a ride-along from their local substation.  

The police weren't the ones who raised the stakes, they're simply responding accordingly.  Like the rest of us, they're putting the odds as much in their favor as possible.   As John Steinbeck once said, “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!”

Any one of us would do the same...

[M2]

1 hour ago, FLEA said:

The question of "why are they wearing it here, doing this?" Is probably appropriate. But my guess is the department can't afford 400 sets of uniforms for different environments/seasons/weather like the Navy. 

I have a buddy who is a local constable lieutenant.  His department is buying up old ACU uniforms because they can't afford OCPs.  Many agencies are in the same boat.

Plus, I wonder how many in the USAF refused their issued $500+ Massif jackets because it wasn't needed?   I doubt many.  If our organizations are going to hand out gear, the vast majority are going to take and use it!

[Sim]

[pawnman]

4 hours ago, M2 said:

First, the DoD doesn't have exclusive rights to camouflage uniforms.   

Secondly, anyone who doesn't have firsthand experience of what police officers go through on a daily basis needs to request a ride-along from their local substation.  

The police weren't the ones who raised the stakes, they're simply responding accordingly.  Like the rest of us, they're putting the odds as much in their favor as possible.   As John Steinbeck once said, “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!”

Any one of us would do the same...

The police absolutely raised the stakes, and we let them.  Post 9-11, we went from peace officers to telling every cop they were the frontline in the war on terrorism here at home.  We radically altered the viewpoint that they were here to serve the public and turned them into a force that is constantly seeking out potential life-threatening enemies.  And turns out if you roll into every situation expecting to face an armed and motivated enemy, you become much more trigger happy.

I don't fully blame the cops, although their training programs certainly bear some of the blame.  We did this to ourselves by teaching cops that putting the odds in their favor to the max extent possible overruled all other considerations, including the rights of the citizens they are policing.

[Lawman]

The police absolutely raised the stakes, and we let them.  Post 9-11, we went from peace officers to telling every cop they were the frontline in the war on terrorism here at home.  We radically altered the viewpoint that they were here to serve the public and turned them into a force that is constantly seeking out potential life-threatening enemies.  And turns out if you roll into every situation expecting to face an armed and motivated enemy, you become much more trigger happy.
I don't fully blame the cops, although their training programs certainly bear some of the blame.  We did this to ourselves by teaching cops that putting the odds in their favor to the max extent possible overruled all other considerations, including the rights of the citizens they are policing.

Have you ever participated in any of those training regimes? Are you just parroting the “research” of agenda reinforcing media outlets?

There are in a given year ~1000 total deaths at the hands of an officer involved shooting. In that same year there are ~250 million police encounters which require an officer to go through the numbers that may result in a warning, arrest, use of force, etc.

So ~.0004 percent of police interactions (most of which are responsive in nature) actually end with somebody dying at the hands of a cop. Trigger happy... right...

This myth that cops somehow fancy themselves a bunch of snake eater/ranger Bn wannabes needs to go. It’s crap and the fact that they are “militarized” has nothing to do with a desire to be a military force and everything to do with needing gear that holds up to the ever expanding list of jobs we give them, having a budget that is paltry, and using the best outlet to get what you need, the military yard sale that we happily provide.


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[Alpharatz]

6 hours ago, nsplayr said:

There’s been a long discussion over what uniforms police in America should I wear and I fall strongly on the side of as civilianized and non-confrontational as possible while still allowing officers to carry all the gear they need and command the respect they deserve.

@FLEA is spot on saying tension is cyclical and since we can’t control non-organized protesters, let’s do what we can with the folks we can control ie our LEOs and do what’s possible to de-escalate. At the same time let’s also have political and activist leaders call for de-escalation and non-violence as well. You can’t and shouldn’t expect to quell unrest in a democratic republic via crackdowns (eg “dominating the battle space”), it has to be mutual reductions in force and those who are in power and sworn officers of the law should take the lead.

This is a good read on the subject: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-08-18/a-history-of-police-uniforms-and-why-they-matter

I think everyone knows that wearing different clothes makes you feel different. It’s why you dress up for church and “sun’s out, guns out” at the beach and why I at least feel a specific type of aircrew pride throwing on the green bag. For me, it’s even more so in the bag than when wearing the multicam flight suit that IMHO makes us all look like we’re in the Army despite the advantages of the two-piece style while shitting or sweating.

On active duty we were issued combat shirts at one point to pair with body armor and the multicam bottoms and boy did we feel like Billy Badasses despite no actual increase in combat lethality. SEALs of the sky indeed 😅

All that to say: police, even federal LEOs, should wear uniforms that look like civilian police uniforms, especially when patrolling American cities and towns. It actually matters in how the public perceives and treats them. And they should always be identifiable with specific department badges and individual badge or ID numbers if not names. 

If you’re an adviser in Iraq or raiding some cartel safe house on the border or SWAT, it’s a different situation obviously.

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

Edited July 26, 2020 by Alpharatz
punctuation

[SurelySerious]

13 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

Wait, your edit was for punctuation? Should try again for coherence. 

[magnetfreezer]

45 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

The North Hollywood bank robbery shootout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) and subsequent encounters with criminals with higher power weapons/body armor drove the need for rifles in patrol units. Most patrol units keep the AR in the trunk unless needed/increased threat condition, so that will reduce perceived militarization during peaceful encounters while ensuring individual units quick access to firepower when needed.

[Lawman]

The North Hollywood bank robbery shootout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) and subsequent encounters with criminals with higher power weapons/body armor drove the need for rifles in patrol units. Most patrol units keep the AR in the trunk unless needed/increased threat condition, so that will reduce perceived militarization during peaceful encounters while ensuring individual units quick access to firepower when needed.

I hear this line of stupid oddly enough from some of the very same people that vehemently defend the right of the citizenry to own spooky black plastic rifles.

Saying cops should deliberately ignore a half a century of firearms technological development for the sake of “look less like the military I associate you with in my head” would be akin to saying “carry a revolver instead of a semi-auto pistol because screw actual usage and capability I want to feel better about the way you dress for work.”


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[Alpharatz]

23 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Wait, your edit was for punctuation? Should try again for coherence. 

Go lick your ice cream cone......

[SurelySerious]

45 minutes ago, Alpharatz said:

Go lick your ice cream cone......

Aw jeez man, really got me with that one. 

[lloyd christmas]

A prediction.  There are undercover federal agents in the crowds in Portland and Seattle.  They are running intel and building cases on 50 - 100 people.  In a few weeks, you will see raids on where these 50 - 100 people live.  They will be arrested and charged with serious federal crimes such as domestic terrorism, assault on federal officers, arson etc.  They will be denied bail and will face decades in federal prison.  That is how these protests will end.  The rest of these criminals will wonder if they are next and start to rethink their decisions.  

[SurelySerious]

I sincerely hope if that’s the case, they roll up the assholes with the high powered lasers first. 

[VTguy]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:44 PM, Alpharatz said:

Police Chiefs to wear business casual attire with a concealed pistol.  Ditch the four star collar rank unless you happen to be a retired general..Detectives as usual..business casual with concealed pistols...LT's....ditch the military rank for the word Lieutenant..Sgt's can keep chevrons..Patrol staff to ditch the battle rattle motif except for body armour under the shirt.  Sergeants may patrol with rifles.  All other patrol personnel patrol with shotguns..Pistols limited to 10 round magazines....Expending a 10 round magazine to be carefully evaluated...

Back when I was active duty I used to have a similar perspective about police being overly-militarized. But then I went to the Guard, became a cop/detective, and the perspective changed. Its easy to look at social media and think police are out of control. Sure, every department has one or two tackleberries who love gear and guns. But everything our patrol guys carry on their person or in their vehicles has a distinct purpose. Police tools and tactics are inherently reactive to trends in greater society and the criminal element.

AR-15s and similar high powered, semi-auto rifles have become more commonplace in American homes. Naturally, they have become more prevalent in barricaded gunman incidents, domestic violence incidents, active shooters, etc. A 5.56 round will go through a patrol car and a soft kevlar vest like a knife through butter. Last year one of my buddies was shot and killed by an armed fugitive despite wearing a kevlar vest. Just a few weeks ago a rookie in my area was shot and killed through a door on a domestic violence incident. I'm sorry if people get butt hurt seeing us wearing plate carriers while we respond to armed subjects...but I'd rather not go to any more funerals.

I think there is alot of room for police in the US to be reformed. There are some legitimately good ideas floating around out there. But they aren't getting real traction because of the hyperbole and political agendas that benefit from casting all cops as wannabe soldiers or racist thugs.

[Breckey]

Plate carriers and AR-15s are understandable. The issues is that they look and act like the military when then have a very different mission. Wearing black/blue/khaki would have a very different message when interacting with the populous.

CBP and other federal agencies have the uniforms. Are these agents that aren't kitted up with the latest and greatest from Crye less effective in their duties?

[VTguy]

9 minutes ago, Breckey said:

Plate carriers and AR-15s are understandable. The issues is that they look and act like the military when then have a very different mission. Wearing black/blue/khaki would have a very different message when interacting with the populous.

CBP and other federal agencies have the uniforms. Are these agents that aren't kitted up with the latest and greatest from Crye less effective in their duties?

That's a fair point. I'd agree that multi-cam is a ridiculous look for cops and agents working a protest in Portland, Seattle or any other urban area. From my limited understanding, the guys we're seeing in the news are HSI SRT, USMS SOG and CBP BORTAC. These are dedicated tactical teams at the federal level and I'm guessing the multi-cam is simply what they have on hand. They aren't regular cops. They certainly wouldn't be my first choice for riot control duties. But their deployment is limited and anecdotal in the context of the greater debate about police militarization. They aren't representative of the 800k or so street cops around the US. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Agencies are should always be held accountable to their leadership down to the individual. Perceptions are everything and everyone can spin it to their narrative. Regardless of tensions, civil disobedience, uncivil disobedience/thuggery, whatever. Most will think twice attacking armor vs less confrontational everyday wear so it’s situation dependent. Of course after our sand wars for decades they do have plenty of mil surplus goods, including armored vehicles so once again everything is situation dependent. Gun, knife, simple or complex protesting - I definitely don’t want to be in their shoes.

At least their tasers are visible vs any one of us outside the wire would never be issued one. A remnant of their duties with a show of force. They should be able to protect themselves, but it’s the public’s eye that seems to be the squeaky wheel like the arsonists/vandals/criminals that managed to have capture that same eye/focus in support of their agenda.

Just some thoughts not lighting a torch.

Edited July 27, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[Lord Ratner]

What a cool conversation. I wanna thank the black guy for participating. Really adds a lot.

 

I think the biggest part missed is that racism is human nature. If you disagree, you probably haven't spent much time in other parts of the world. It's *everywhere.*

Like so many other negative elements of human nature it takes tremendous effort to overcome. We're doing that, and in fact is working. America is, systemically, no longer racist. There are no laws, organizations, or functions that discriminate based solely on skin color.

But like all major societal changes, the time required to get from point A to point B isn't measured in days, months, or years, it's measured in generations. And for better or worse, we probably need one or two more generations to die off before we truly get there. But step one is to fix the system, which we largely have.

There's no justice for the past. The racists and their racist acts will not be avenged, they will fade into the past. I think that's why we have such incendiary rhetoric about the evils of modern America from the experienced activists. They *know* that America has gotten better, but they're worried that if they admit it, everyone will nod approvingly and move on, without holding the perpetrators to account. They want justice for what was done to them and their families, and it's getting between them and the mission. Understandable.

My fear is that the intentional misrepresentation of the systemic reality by motivated activists in America will disenfranchise the youngest generation of white kids who have no experience or attachment to the racist past. They look at their lives and experiences and see nothing like what the older generation screams about. They look around and say "what else can I do?" And it's never enough.

We have to remain vigilant in keeping racism at bay, but we also need to be patient and allow the species to evolve in thinking. It's not fair, it's just life. Until then, shame the racists into oblivion, and let their kids inherit a better country.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Very well put. and I hope they inherit a better country whatever that may be and maybe it will morph into something more suitable for their mindset/future lifestyle, etc. As generations turnover like the way of the Dodo, hopefully the issues at hand will be eradicated. A few remaining in the fold should remind/lead/recount events in history what it was like to show the way forward. Those never having a taste of what racism, socialism, dictatorship - basically anything, may or may not have a good reference to draw from so history may repeat itself. Granted their is some goodness to never having tasted 31 Flavors and making your own assessment. Hate lies in all ages, it’s the mindset that needs to be recalibrated. No answer how, but time has the tendency to weed out most everything.
 

Agree with Lord Ratner - Regardless of what’s going on here, it’s a far better place than so many other areas of the world.