ThreeHoler Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 It was opposed at the MAJCOM O-6 level. All the MAJCOM/A3s said "Great idea, boss." Hopefully the final GM includes the added text making the PIC the final decision maker to accept or reject reduced/waived crew rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidSky Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) As the 7th fleet and the rest of the Navy are learning this lesson over again why in the hell are we taking steps backwards? All I see is tons of potential for misuse or abuse leading to accidents down the line. Edited September 20, 2017 by LiquidSky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war007afa Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 8 hours ago, ThreeHoler said: It was opposed at the MAJCOM O-6 level. All the MAJCOM/A3s said "Great idea, boss." Hopefully the final GM includes the added text making the PIC the final decision maker to accept or reject reduced/waived crew rest. PIC has always been the waiver acceptance authority. Also charged with the safe conduct of the flight and mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourFans Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 23 minutes ago, war007afa said: PIC has always been the waiver acceptance authority. Also charged with the safe conduct of the flight and mission. Not if you ask 603rd or the CAOC's AMD judging by the number of times I heard: "We've got the waiver already approved for you..." when I never asked for it. I can see both sides of this argument, but I don't understand why they picked this particular target right now. Like putting a JDAM on the outhouse of a SAM site. Maybe it's been on the chopping block for a while, but as a priority seems right up there with rolling up sleeves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookieRookie Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 1 hour ago, FourFans130 said: Not if you ask 603rd or the CAOC's AMD judging by the number of times I heard: "We've got the waiver already approved for you..." when I never asked for it. I can see both sides of this argument, but I don't understand why they picked this particular target right now. Like putting a JDAM on the outhouse of a SAM site. Maybe it's been on the chopping block for a while, but as a priority seems right up there with rolling up sleeves. The SECAF also made comments at the AFA conference about how "We don't got this" with doing more with less. Crew rest waivers seems exactly like doing more with less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I like this change. I've asked for crew rest waivers and been denied. If the SQ/CC and AC want it and judge the mission benefit worth the risk, it's dumb that someone disconnected from the mission can deny it. I guess every corner of the AF is different but our waiver authority is MAJCOM A3 who is not tracking daily missions and will always say no, even for TIC support. So to me, this is a good change because it removes obstacles to the mission. If you're worried your leadership will now bully you into accepting missions you aren't safe to execute, well that sucks. Say no, that's always your right. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Man Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 and now it won't stop you from making major! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyFlightSuit Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 12 hours ago, tac airlifter said: I like this change. I've asked for crew rest waivers and been denied. If the SQ/CC and AC want it and judge the mission benefit worth the risk, it's dumb that someone disconnected from the mission can deny it. I guess every corner of the AF is different but our waiver authority is MAJCOM A3 who is not tracking daily missions and will always say no, even for TIC support. So to me, this is a good change because it removes obstacles to the mission. If you're worried your leadership will now bully you into accepting missions you aren't safe to execute, well that sucks. Say no, that's always your right. Yes it is your right, and unfortunately I've seen good people get burned for exercising good judgement. Allowing waivers for crew rest at lower levels even when PIC is final authority weakens his ability to do so without possible reprisal in the form of poor feed back on OPRs for not being a "team player". Sure I've said no to many, but I've also had really good commanders 90% of the time that backed me up each time, I've seen many whom have not been so lucky. This is a bad idea, more rest is always better even when you request a waiver your probably better off going to the hotel that night. The only time I'd even entertain a waiver is if we were stuck in a less than ideal situation for crew rest and continuing on would set us up better in the long run, but that's rare. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 This change is going to work people to the bone and possibly kill them, what a terrible idea. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronxbomber252 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 IMHO, it will depend on how it is worded. From a Rescue perspective, I would like to see something like: SQ/CC can waive crew rest for real world rescue missions. Basically constrain the authority to missions where a fast decision is needed and lives depend on the mission going right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Hopefully C-17s get a waiver from the waiver, otherwise we will look forward to more gear up landings at the wrong airfield. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 This is ridiculous. I would support lowering the approval to extend a duty day to a level that makes more sense, but I can't foresee circumstances where I would waive my crew rest. Less than 12 hours quickly becomes an insufficient amount of time once you factor in transit time to/from lodging and other issues that will inevitably come up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Interesting to hear from other corners of the AF about this policy. We all have our own context, which I think affects the perception of whether this change is good or bad. For example, it never occurred to me that I should factor in transit to/from a hotel into my 12 hours; I'm accustomed to living a 5 minute walk from my aircraft. There have been times weather was rolling in and the whole crew is awake sitting around looking at mission slides, and if we don't move takeoff time 45 minutes left we'll be stuck on the field while an op is happening elsewhere. Of course we asked for a crew rest waiver-- we're all feeling great and if we don't leave earlier than expected, we miss the action. I see this change as enabling those situations, but that's my context. I haven't experienced a CC pushing me to fly when I know I'm unsafe. I guess some folks are afraid they'll be pressured into flying an extra leg when everyone is beat, or worried they won't have enough time to check in/out of the hotel. I don't have any response except: be a professional, know your limits, and speak truth to power. From my viewpoint, this change pushes authority to people with the best ground truth of a situation. If you have no faith in those people and have been previously relying on regs to protect you.... well, that sucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 I've always thought limits were set for a reason. If anything goes wrong, whether fatigue related or not, extending your day is going to be questioned by just about everybody and will be the first nail driven by the higher food chain CYA crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTB Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 2 hours ago, tac airlifter said: There have been times weather was rolling in and the whole crew is awake sitting around looking at mission slides, and if we don't move takeoff time 45 minutes left we'll be stuck on the field while an op is happening elsewhere. Of course we asked for a crew rest waiver-- we're all feeling great and if we don't leave earlier than expected, we miss the action. I see this change as enabling those situations, but that's my context. I haven't experienced a CC pushing me to fly when I know I'm unsafe. Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookieRookie Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, RTB said: Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway? It does or at least should have started it. Edited September 21, 2017 by LookieRookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, RTB said: Maybe I'm confused as I've been a (ret) for a while now, but in this situation, didn't showing up to brief and look at mission slides effectively start your duty day and end your crew rest anyway? No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start. Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time? some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done. Edited September 21, 2017 by tac airlifter 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, tac airlifter said: No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start. Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time? some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done. Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations. If we show to the jet, AMCC, squadron, etc. then my crew has started the FDP. Brief time doesn’t start our clock in AMC; show time (at the aforementioned locations) does. If I’m awake and check the weather or SMS from my hotel room, then I’m not breaking crew rest by 202V3 2.1.2. If I get on the bus, I am still in the 12 hours of crew rest set aside for transportation, meals, etc. This is why we have MAJCOM and Wing supplements...MAJCOMs have operational authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTB Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, tac airlifter said: No bro, if you’re just having coffee and waiting for brief time to start. Am I not allowed to look at mission slides before official brief time? some of you guys are so official it’s amazing anything gets done. Well that escalated quickly. 25 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said: Different communities and MAJCOMs have different rules/interpretations Apparently so. Good info, sounds quite a bit different. If we were briefing a mission or reviewing mission slides at the squadron or ops facility, our crew rest was over. Edited September 21, 2017 by RTB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, RTB said: Well that escalated quickly. Eh, not my intent. Sorry if it came off rudely. Like threeholer said, we all have different rules & norms. I appreciate hearing other perspectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream big Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 6 hours ago, TreeA10 said: I've always thought limits were set for a reason. If anything goes wrong, whether fatigue related or not, extending your day is going to be questioned by just about everybody and will be the first nail driven by the higher food chain CYA crowd. I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeHoler Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 58 minutes ago, dream big said: I always thought the rules in the 202 and 11-2X were written not for our safety but to enable the Air Force to fry us when we screw up? There are people who think that...but not the people who write the 202/217. Speaking of which...new 217V1 “soon.” God help us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HossHarris Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 4 hours ago, RTB said: Well that escalated quickly. Here at a major airline, if I think about flying my flight duty period has started .... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADFNZ Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) As the PIC, I just turn down FDP waivers every time. Problem solved. Edited September 22, 2017 by BADFNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BashiChuni Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 fascinating to see each communities take on this...to me this is a good change, but i can see how AMC would abuse it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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