Jump to content
Baseops Forums
uhhello

Marine 130/35 swap paint

Recommended Posts

Great job by that crew for sure!

 What the fuck was that ATC dude thinking? "Hey dudes, I know you just had a mid-air and you're a few engines down, looking for a the nearest suitable field but...do you have time to copy down a phone number?"

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How else do you expect them to close their IFR flight plan from a farmer’s field?

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, FUSEPLUG said:

How else do you expect them to close their IFR flight plan from a farmer’s field?

Nothing a quick fax to the nearest base ops can’t fix.

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2020 at 9:41 PM, Kenny Powers said:

Great job by that crew for sure!

 What the fuck was that ATC dude thinking? "Hey dudes, I know you just had a mid-air and you're a few engines down, looking for a the nearest suitable field but...do you have time to copy down a phone number?"

Excellent work on the crew's part and really glad all involved came through ok.

I hope that ATC controller gets an opportunity to tour the crash site, review the tapes, and meet the crew, so he can expand his SA bubble a bit.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

ATCer here.  I'm a Tower guy, so explaining what Center/Tracon dudes do can be difficult because 1) it wasn't me and 2) the equipment and rules they use are very different (even from each other).  As absurd as this guy with the phone seems, keep in context the terrain surrounding the area, and the locations of radar antennae and radio transmitter/receivers - for Centers they're optimized for talking to people in the flight levels above 10k, and around terrain (which there's lots of in that area)  you lose line-of-sight and radar contact/comms very quickly below those altitudes.  Assuming the aircraft is semi-controllable, which it obviously was, and someone on a multi-crew aircraft is able to maintain communications, passing along a phone number while you can is a prudent move and it wasn't just so the mishap aircraft could cancel IFR on the ground.  There's lots of info needed and it's likely that was rapidly going to be the only way to communicate with the Center, who can pass around useful stuff like Lat/Longs and other crucial info for emergency response and not just rely on eyewitnesses calling 911.  Also do J-models have integrated Sat Phones, like the C-17's Aero-I?

Also where this occurred is just beyond the eastern fringes of the servicing approach, SoCal Tracon (SCT), and at the lower levels of Los Angeles Center (ZLA).  SCT in the area is really set up to work the Palm Springs TRSA and to feed/sequence the satellite airports in the area (Bermuda Dunes and Thermal), and there's a basic ATC procedure of not forcing radio frequency changes on emergency aircraft unless better handling will result.  Someone in an emergency descent from the low twenties or teens (not sure where MC-130s do their A/R) isn't a whole lot of time to work with beyond an emergency point out as you blow through someone else's airspace.

Finally the LiveATC tape was edited so not all the comms are there. 

Anyway consider the limfacs, don't just look at it as quibbling.  Very very happy there was such a happy end result.  America!

Edited by Clayton Bigsby
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Clayton Bigsby said:

 As absurd as this guy with the phone seems, keep in context the terrain surrounding the area, and the locations of radar antennae and radio transmitter/receivers - for Centers they're optimized for talking to people in the flight levels above 10k, and around terrain (which there's lots of in that area)  you lose line-of-sight and radar contact/comms very quickly below those altitudes.  Assuming the aircraft is semi-controllable, which it obviously was, and someone on a multi-crew aircraft is able to maintain communications, passing along a phone number while you can is a prudent move and it wasn't just so the mishap aircraft could cancel IFR on the ground.  

 

This wasn't the run of the mill IFE.  There was absolutely nothing a phone number was going to do in this situation to assist or help the crew or anyone else.  These guys/gals were assholes and elbows troubleshooting and running multiple checklists.  Just clear the airspace around them and leave em' be.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, uhhello said:

This wasn't the run of the mill IFE.  There was absolutely nothing a phone number was going to do in this situation to assist or help the crew or anyone else.  These guys/gals were assholes and elbows troubleshooting and running multiple checklists.  Just clear the airspace around them and leave em' be.  

In all fairness, the ATC dude is simply doing as he's trained.  Military guys IFE almost at a routine rate (notice not a single word about the F-35 ejection...who's got his back besides JPRC?)...often for items that turn out to be nothing...but and it would be completely negligent for him to simply say "good luck!"  A phone number pass to maintain a chain of communication may be the best he's got in that moment.  As Clayton has mentioned above, he's trying his best to do what he can with what he's got.  In the same right, a controller should be aware that a four engine airplane losing two engines, leaking fuel, and being on fire is not something to take lightly.  I'm sincerely hoping he alerted emergency services of some kind on his own end. 

Still, it couldn't hurt for him and the crew to meet face-to-face and get some learning on both sides of the radio.

Edited by FourFans130
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

F-35C Mid-Air Refueling from a C-130 Hercules | Aircraft, Military  aircraft, Fighter jets

This is a random photo I found. Had no idea they did this with the gear down.

Edited by fire4effect
Gramur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fire4effect said:

F-35C Mid-Air Refueling from a C-130 Hercules | Aircraft, Military  aircraft, Fighter jets

This is a random photo I found. Had no idea they did this with the gear down.

C-130's are slow and parasite drag works great, especially when your gear cycles in 2.5 seconds.  More likely, a photobird off your right wing sure makes this a great time to do...(insert whatever was in the 2 hour pre-brief).  The Herc is probably doing 180-220 in this turn, which isn't "concerning" to a J pilot, but it is on the fringe of 'something bad could happen'  especially at that bank angle and g.  

P.S. I love the Marines.  I've known marines that I don't like, but The Marines are the epitome of excellence.     

...because only the marines would look at this and say..."that checks, what's next?"

If the master chief from Halo ever exists, he'll be a marine.

EDIT: point of order, YES...that's an H-model C-130 as noted by #4's props, my J-model comments are, well, amplified.

Edited by FourFans130

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2020 at 10:27 PM, FourFans130 said:

The Herc is probably doing 180-220 in this turn, which isn't "concerning" to a J pilot, but it is on the fringe of 'something bad could happen'  especially at that bank angle and g.  

That's interesting. Wasn't thinking that way but with two obviously very dissimilar aircraft and one or both get into a stall situation I could see it get ugly quick. I wonder what stall prevention/recovery protocols are baked into the F135 software.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's interesting. Wasn't thinking that way but with two obviously very dissimilar aircraft and one or both get into a stall situation I could see it get ugly quick. I wonder what stall prevention/recovery protocols are baked into the F135 software.  
I am just guessing, but I would imagine the F-35 goes into some kind of low-speed maneuvering mode with the gear down.

Keep in mind we routinely do AR in the KC-135 at 190-200 knots with Hogs and Hercs at 250k lbs with some flaps. Pretty close to min maneuver at those weights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a c model, navy does weird stuff, not sure why you’d put gear down.

The jet goes into a different flight control mode when you aerial refuel anyhow with gear up.

I’ve refueled from a c-130 before with Eurofighters and Tornadoes all stacked up. It’s no big deal except when 2x wing pods are out, you feel really close to the other jet refueling right next to you.




Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, di1630 said:

That is a c model, navy does weird stuff, not sure why you’d put gear down.

The jet goes into a different flight control mode when you aerial refuel anyhow with gear up.

I’ve refueled from a c-130 before with Eurofighters and Tornadoes all stacked up. It’s no big deal except when 2x wing pods are out, you feel really close to the other jet refueling right next to you.

What speeds are typical for fighters refueling off a Herc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, di1630 said:

That is a c model, navy does weird stuff, not sure why you’d put gear down.

The jet goes into a different flight control mode when you aerial refuel anyhow with gear up.

I’ve refueled from a c-130 before with Eurofighters and Tornadoes all stacked up. It’s no big deal except when 2x wing pods are out, you feel really close to the other jet refueling right next to you.




Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

Great question that I don’t know the answer to.... which control logic “reigns Supreme” between the aerial refueling logic, and the powered approach (gear down) logic... my guess is the gear down logic.., which would probably make the turn a little more comfortable for the F-35 pilot (throttle is very numb in the AR logic).

just speculation though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Vandy01 said:

Great question that I don’t know the answer to.... which control logic “reigns Supreme” between the aerial refueling logic, and the powered approach (gear down) logic... my guess is the gear down logic.., which would probably make the turn a little more comfortable for the F-35 pilot (throttle is very numb in the AR logic).

just speculation though

This forum has turned into F-35 GK central (at least for me). What are the different flight regimes where the throttle reacts differently? I’ve only done AR in the F-15 and the throttle just acted one way regardless of what you were doing. Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying and I’d understand different amount of throttle requirements in landing config vs clean BFM config, but AR? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In AR the flight controls and power control are dampened, e.g. the same pressure on the stick (STS) moves the flight controls less in AR than it does in “normal flight” mode. Same idea with the throttle. Similar idea with the gear down, but they are not the same...I’d be speculating the same as Vandy on why the jet above has its gear down. 

Edited by brabus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, brabus said:

In AR the flight controls and power control are dampened, e.g. the same pressure on the stick (STS) moves the flight controls less in AR than it does in “normal flight” mode. Same idea with the throttle. Similar idea with the gear down, but they are not the same...I’d be speculating the same as Vandy on why the jet above has its gear down. 

The F-22 does the same.

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also speculation, but maybe the extra drag improves the engine response (more linear power response and less spool up at higher power settings while flying slow)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, di1630 said:

That is a c model, navy does weird stuff, not sure why you’d put gear down.

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

Need to be able to refuel gear down around the boat.

 

e.g. The boat is blue water ops (no land divert), you have an emergency or gear problem that forces you to put the gear down, and the deck won't be cleared for recovery before you flame out.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Danger41 said:

This forum has turned into F-35 GK central (at least for me). What are the different flight regimes where the throttle reacts differently? I’ve only done AR in the F-15 and the throttle just acted one way regardless of what you were doing. Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying and I’d understand different amount of throttle requirements in landing config vs clean BFM config, but AR? 

Yeah... it’s nothing like the F-15, despite the “digital” portion of the DEEC.  In the F-35, the  throttle sensitivity/flight control logic changes based on the regime of flight you’re in... and also based on settings like putting the gear down, or opening the AR door.  It’s very noticeable in the AR mode: the jet basically dampens out over corrections.. the throttle needs to be moved significantly to get a small movement forward out of the jet.  Think of it kind of  like the throttle on a modern sports car (electronic throttle maps... “sport mode”, etc).  A “fun” side effect of an all digital jet.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2020 at 5:44 PM, di1630 said:

That is a c model, navy does weird stuff, not sure why you’d put gear down. Speed brakes?

The jet goes into a different flight control mode when you aerial refuel anyhow with gear up.

I’ve refueled from a c-130 before with Eurofighters and Tornadoes all stacked up. It’s no big deal except when 2x wing pods are out, you feel really close to the other jet refueling right next to you.

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

Two 53s or 47s take up a lot of real estate behind you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The C-17 has an AR Mode that dampens some stick forces during AR as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Two 53s or 47s take up a lot of real estate behind you.

Like I tell my wife in my birthday/anniversary....

It’ll totally fit


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...