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a bit generous referring to them as people 😁

i totally agree that UPT cuts are seriously degrading the quality of the product. But don't conflate the UPT syllabus cuts with a need to create a new ACE program: even with a robust UPT syllabus like I went through many moons ago, the ACE Program was extremely beneficial for the new co-pilots. Story time: I remember back in the 2005-2006 time frame, there was a Langley F-22 at Hill AFB whose crew chief lost control of the landing gear pin during ground ops, and the pin got sucked down an engine. IIRC $6.8M in damage. That year, at Beale, our T-38 CT Program was run on a budget of around $6M for ~3700 hours of flying time. Think about that. That's around 3,000 SORTIES in a T-38... for $800,000 less than the cost of a single Raptor FOD incident. My experience in the Beale T-38 CT Program has made me such a better U-2 pilot and overall aviator than I would ever be without it. A magnitude better. There is so much that could be done to make our USAF aviators "that much better"... but the AF leadership will simply not invest the pennies... and I do mean "pennies"... to make it happen. It's no longer a priority. I hope I am proved wrong on my last statement.

Took my wife to the shooting range in Conecuh Alabama yesterday, as we were wrapping up we had a very unexpected flyover. I thought it might be @Hacker in FiFi but after checking the schedule online I am guessing it was Doc returning home after cancelling the rest of their season for an engine change in Panama City. Must have been a sight to see the sky filled with these beautiful birds. The sound was incredible.

All things being equal, I'd rather have the gas.

Engines are numbered left to right... for those unaware like I was at one point. Brabus... In the Viper or F-35, that would be "#1".

I think this about the 5th cycle of colored shirts and name tags in my career. Thankfully I’ve been able to mostly ignore all of the knee jerk decisions and keep doing the right thing: morale shirts and call sign name tags (and no hat/sunglasses on head), as God intended.

My only comparison to heavies is the airlines, which I know isn’t apples to apples, but I don’t think it’s far off much of the time. These styles of flying allow for significant decay of stick/rudder skills and dealing with EPs/abnormals/unintended events that require them (vs. manipulating automation/simply pushing buttons). It is a disservice to young pilots especially not having ACE - the mil is holding them back on advancing their skills/maintaining solid proficiency. There’s a lot of airline pilots who could really use some GA time for this reason, and the ones who don’t care and rest on their 6900 airline hours don’t seem to realize they don’t really have 6900 hrs of flying, they have 6900 hrs of managing computers and rinse/repeating the same taxi flows/departures/arrivals (over generalization a bit, but point remains).

I bet those T-37 hours were probably 10% the cost of -135 hours and at that point in your flying career twice as valuable in building airmanship. Resurrect ACE, fly COs after UPT thru a solid 300 hour min program. Give the new ACE program T-6s from AETC (after an avionics update) then recapitalize UPT with PC-21s, T-6Cs or M-345s… or this training aircraft offered by Grob https://gaf-aerospace.com/tpx-cobra-en.html#:~:text=The TPX is a low-wing%2C side-by-side%2C two-seater,turboprop engine with 750 HP%2C 7-blade propeller. One more thing, ACE was unfortunately before my day but I believe it was there to give COs flying hours they weren’t getting sitting alert to assure pilot development and to aid the development and timing of Aircraft Commander eligible (by hours) pilots of whatever aircraft they were assigned. Good for the pilot and good for the Air Force. ACE 2.0 would serve the same / similar rationale, cheaper flight hours developing Aircraft Commander eligible pilots sooner, less expensive and less wear and tear on an already well utilized fleet of aircraft

Leave the kids alone. If the boomers hadn't raped every institution and convention for their own advantage, all the while incinerating the housing market, suppressing interest rates, saddling every 22 year old with crippling debt, and inventing "too big to fail," maybe the younger generation wouldn't look toward something different. The American Dream was raped by the generation that cried out for free-love and no war until they got in power to give us a corporatist government and endless wars. Now they don't like that their kids are skeptical of their promises. No small wonder. Socialism is a nightmare, but you have to be blind to think this is just about lazy young adults. 😂

Well, looks you got your answer.

Correction: ACE did not end when SAC went away. It remained within the newly-formed ACC until summer 1994 (maybe '95) when General Loh cancelled the program literally overnight. In my opinion, this was one more indicator of the lack of understanding that officers like Loh and many of the other ACC generals with fighter backgrounds had WRT to the non-fighter platforms under their command. Although I was never in ACE, I have many friends and classmates that flew as ACE co-pilots, or that were assigned to ACE as instructor pilots. I have a lot of experience with the CT Program at Beale, which ran in conjunction with ACE until the ACE portion was killed. You pose a number of questions, Clark. Bottom line: the ACE Program was a cost effective and solid aviation method for getting low-time co-pilots some much-needed quality flying experience. Not to mention, it made pilots very happy that they were able to fly... actually fly anywhere they wanted to go, and work on developing their new aviation skill sets. Imagine that... happy pilots working to better their fundamental aviation skills. For a brief period of time, Beale RQ-4 pilots were flying Beale aero club aircraft in an ACE-like program. Pennies on the dollar. Of course, it was cancelled. But it showed that with a tiny bit of thought and effort... and not much money... something positive could be done. The short-sightedness of Gen Loh and his staff was very unfortunate. Bringing back an even better version of the ACE Program should be done today. In both ACC and AMC.

Unfortuantely, there are experience and recency blind spots no matter where you find yourself in the aviation industry. When bringing guys in to fly the B-24 and B-29, I am looking for a mix of: - Multi-pilot, multiengine, "professional" flying - Day/VFR GA flying - Tailwheel experience There are a lot of other desirable traits, but these are the ones that keep the airplanes from getting wrecked.

If you give the government the power to feed you then you give the government the power to starve you.

Be more like Boyd... https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/advice/john-boyds-roll-call-do-you-want-to-be-someone-or-do-something/

So he can’t influence vendors to charge less for a beer at the dude’s own event…but…come Jan 1st he’ll be able to influence property owners to reduce/stop increases when it comes to charging rent.

Yall were enjoying it too much.....cancel that shit now!

I've gotta go dig in my tubs of ol' USAF shit to find my "WSO Hater Union" card I was once presented at a roll call. Looks like I have others to pass that along to here. Wish I could remember the occasion for which I was awarded it.

Detroit was technically too be to fail too. Been there recently? Given communist rule, ANY city is fully capable of collapsing and consuming itself.

Watching POTUS realize that Putin is a menace in real time has been entertaining.

Yeah while it's an interesting conversation in an academic sense, the simple reality is that the people who view flying as an unfortunate necessity and impediment to ladder climbing are not going to do anything but the bare minimum to train and keep pilots trained. The bare minimum will be discovered by gradually reducing flying experience until too many planes crash to ignore the problem.

This is from the cheap seats, but everything being discussed in this thread strikes me as the whole point of pilot training. What am I missing? What is the USAF missing? Is this a serious proposal? We cut pilot training in half, but then add a program like this shortly thereafter? WTFO?

One more idea, in another thread this may have come up but what if ACE 2 were run at one or several centralized bases and participants TDY’d in for recurrency and a set training profile, like recurrency flights then an intense 2-3 weeks flying schedule. Figure 3-5 training programs. Since it would be about a one month TDY, the interference factor from home base could be eliminated.

The putin simps like bashi are confused because they got played. They thought they were voting for an idea (pro-putin) but now they realize their idol’s hurt feelings and chase for a Nobel prize are way more important.

No, no…you have it all wrong. The progressives told us it was a Republican shutdown.

Won't matter soon, free/cheap beer at all those soon to be city owned/run grocery stores.

Being a pilot wasn't enough reason for them?? 😁😆

You are not far off the target, my time in tankers 01-05 had a LOT of one to a full stop at the Died flying essentially the same mission 2-3 days in a row. Complacency and expectation bias was a real CRM / ORM issue. Variety is the spice of life and necessary in the development of a military aviator

Agreed Huggy, the ACE program was awesome for us -135 and -52 copilots. I ended up with over 400 hours of tweet time while a CO at Plattsburgh. Used Csquared (the off days right after alert week - for you youngsters) as an opportunity to cruise down South for a few days with 3 hops each day. We’d leave out on Wednesday right off alert and return Sunday evening by 6pm. Any controlled airport with a military fuel contract and at least 5,000 feet of runway was good to go. Smyrna, TN used to give a small bottle of Jack for each 100 gallons of fuel. The Squadron bar keep was happy every time i flew through there. The furthest I flew out of Plattsburgh on a tweet trip was to NM and back. A few others to Homestead, FL and back. Great flying experience and tons of fun to boot. A few of us even got formation qualed and flew a few out and back formation trips too. I’m still shocked how many of my fellow CO’s didn’t take full advantage of the program. I was able to fill empty flight slots/schedules tons of times just by being willing and available to fly. One year I flew 2 “guest” flights with our 2 tanker squadron commanders.

They have been hosting NATA Formation Clinics out there for several years. An old SAC base with huge runways, lots of ramp space, and tons of clear airspace around it is a particularly good place to have 'em. The runway is long enough that a couple of years ago a formation of T-6s took off, lead had an engine loss of power at about 150' AGL with the gear up, and he was still able to get the gear down and land in the remaining runway. IMG_3978 2_E614E742-A9FD-4ADE-AE7D-726FC77310F9.mp4

Blytheville AFB. "Hooterville". Forgot all about that place. It was one of the ~13 bases that had B-52s and KC-135's when I graduated UPT. They had Tweets too, for the old ACE Program... which Gen Loh killed, in what I'd call a not-well-thought out decision.

I had a 50/50 shot…put it all on black!

The WSO mafia is stronger than I thought.

The only applicability of “democratic” in that sense is they were all stupid enough to vote for it via a democratic process, and ironically that currently valid democratic process would soon disappear entirely if their ill-informed plan actually played out fully.

I learned in a Supercub that had a 135HP Lycoming...it was a beast and I thought normal ops for a Cub. There is NOTHING like slipping a Cub (or other taildragger), over the tree to a greaser one wheel landing on the grass....best if done at Sunset. I am currently shopping airpark runway options. I looked at a 5280' grass strip on 80 acres two weeks ago. Looking at 361 acres this week.

I agree. I think the right is underestimating the political energy and direction politics is headed in this country, mostly in big cities. I think socialism and open support for violence against the right is taking hold of a larger and larger percentage of the population. The question is, when will the dems find a way to remove themselves from the violent leftist progressives? Let the progressive’s behavior and ideas stand on their own outside of the Democratic Party. This country desperately needs bad examples and we are about to get two of them, one in NYC and the other in Seattle.

Don’t want to veer off topic too much and fantasize this plane or that one but…. this jet, yes it’s a kit plane, could be the basis for what could be a great ACE CT aircraft https://www.kitplanes.com/viperjet-redux/ Like a modern Folland Gnat, small light quick nimble and cheap in jet aircraft terms. It would be modified some for sure if adopted for an ACE or CT aircraft but the basics I think are handled.

Your age is a pretty glaring factor. It’s extremely hard to get hired by a fighter unit when you’d be going to UPT near/at the age waiver requirement. It happens occasionally, but data shows it’s very rare. I think many units won’t even entertain interviewing someone who’s in that position, regardless of how stellar their app is otherwise. When a unit sees your app vs. a very similar app (but the guy is 23), they’ll take the 23 yr old 9.9/10. Your best bet is keep submitting apps, but hit your home unit with all you got - put in the extra time to interact with pilots as much as possible, make it known ASAP to them you are excited to be a CC, but your ultimate desire is to fly in the Wing. Your home unit is probably your best bet given your timeline. If no luck by 30, I’d start throwing out apps to heavy units if you really want to fly mil. If you don’t want that bad enough/fighters or bust, then so be it, but be at peace with the decision and never flying for the mil (if it comes to that).

It feels like a pipe dream, but I hope there is a successful movement on the “near” left (e.g. the mid 90s Dem mindset citizens) to establish a new party and send the Dems the way of the Green Party. AOC, etc. can enjoy their irrelevancy on ballots and in the public square. We don’t want everyone to be in lock step with one party - we need rational debate and different ideas, as well as shifting leadership over time (e.g. not having one party dominate for decades). But we also do not want a socialist shit show party who hates everything about America and wants to completely reinvent it into an abomination.

easiest problem to solve and a no brainer.

I have heard rumint of a program similar to ACE as a possibility in the near future for AFGSC, although I have no idea where the process for that contract currently is. Personally, I have seen the benefits of flying GA while struggling to find flying hours after UPT in the Air Force. Getting back in the jet after a few GA flights feels much more natural and the airmanship and SA bubble is much greater. I would go so as far to say a program like this would have a significant positive impact on retention as well. Job satisfaction rapidly improves when the option exists to fly consistently and feel safer while doing it, not to mention the adventure of increasing the types of flying pilots can be exposed to. In the last couple years at least, I have seen the wait time for CAF assignees after IFF/T-38s exceed 12 months from last T-38 flight to MWS initial qual/B-course dollar ride. In my opinion, spending millions on training a pilot and then sitting them for a year is unacceptable, and we must find a way to bridge that gap. The additional crisis is the backlog of co-pilots/wingmen struggling to find hours to just keep currencies. When we aggregate the extra flights required and the safety impact created by decreased proficiency, I absolutely think some version of this is necessary.

To pile on, everyone always gets screwed. The people who get screwed the most are the property owners. The people who get screwed the (distant) 3rd most are the poors who get to benefit from "affordable housing." The people who get screwed the 2nd most - close to the 1st most - are the people who never get mentioned: the people who would otherwise be able to afford said apartment at market rate, but unfortunately inhabit the 'in between' - the wide span of those individuals being too rich to qualify for "affordable housing" but to poor to afford luxury apartments; i.e. the entire middle class. This is all to say that there is no such thing as "affordable housing" - but such is the core nature of Leftists' favorite social programs - none of them describe what the thing really is. In reality, there is only "taxpayer-subsidized-housing-for-a-select-few-lucky-enough-to-be-among-the-chosen-few-to-receive-it-housing." If there was truly "affordable housing," you and me would be able to purchase it at that rate, but as we all know, we can't.

Are you looking for medical data on how keeping pilots physically healthy is worth the AF's time or are you just screaming at clouds here?

Correction applied, thanks for the input as I strive for accuracy in my posts. Yup, lotta questions to try to seed the discussion. I see the value, looking back at my AD AMC tour, and I think it is possible unless things are way different now than then for a new CP (probably an Lt and not a Capt CP), especially in that first year at their assignment. The CT program the Global Hawk was about $90,000 (05-06 dollars) to fly all the RQ4 pilots for the year, maintaining ASEL INSTM currency per the FAA LOA that was in effect at the time that covered Navs directing the GH as Mission Commanders when it was in the US NAS. Dirt freaking cheap. ACC HQ squashed it as they whined they couldn’t set it up all their projected bases for the GH so nobody could have it, because you can’t fly a Cessna in Japan apparently. That was one of the reasons I requested my GH assignment, it was a great benefit while getting a RPA tour done, then the bait and switch happened. Total bullshit and not even penny wise, it was less than the color copier budget for an FY, no kidding. An example to consider for the HAF staffer lurking on this thread: Google AI says a -46 per flight hour cost is about $12,000 and a Gamebird GB1 would be about $400 per hour. Checking their AFMAN 11-2KC-46 Vol 2, to go from FP to MP you need a 1000 total and 400 -46 hours. Substituting 300 hours of GB1 time with a good bit of that being solo to really build airmanship would save $7 million in flying hours and I’m confident in saying likely deliver a stronger upgrade candidate than one with all -46 time.

I don't work for Beehive but have visited their facility a few times. At AFA they rolled out their 100LBN thrust engine which is a game changer. If you know anything about affordable munitions space the brewing fight with China has spawned several program to mass produce cruise missiles and other munitions at a cost 1//10th to 1/20th of legacy munitions like Tomahawk, JASSM and JASSM-ER. The opening 72 hours of a fight with China are likely to consume nearly every weapon in stock (50,000 units), so the services have launched an effort to greatly increase quantities at a much lower price point. Companies Like Anduril are trying to mass produce Barracuda for less than $200K. Believe it or not the high cost component in these systems is the engine and current providers charge around $120K per unit. Beehive is driving to get that cost (en masse), down to $25K.

As long as we're swinging for the fence, don't forget the fleet of Super Cubs that studs need to solo before they can move on to a turboprop.

Had I remarried earlier in life I would have done the airpark thing. Big regret after owning an RV-4 for 20 years and an RV-8 for 10. Lot of wasted $$$ on hangars. Thousands of landings w/o a ground loop BUT when it comes to tail draggers, gotta know your limits. Here I am at Red Wing AP, WI waiting out the x-winds at my home airport in MN:

UPDATE (6 Nov 25 / 1230 CST): Since I haven't heard from lilyelliott4, and his profile is suspect (IP addresses), Ihe's been banned. ADMIN NOTE: Thanks, I wasn't tracking until you mentioned it; then I looked at his posts and all followed the same style. I admit I use AI to grab info, but all of his responses look like they are completely AI generated. lilyelliott4, your account is locked. PM me if you aren't a bot and I will consider unlocking it. Otherwise, it'll be deleted shortly. p.s., I also removed the Thai fitness webpage link. Sorry guys, but there wasn't anything interesting on there! I had to check for the good of BaseOps! 😁😁