Recruiting Crisis: 9% want to serve

[ecugringo]

I'll add my .02 from my career in Oil and Gas with a  lot of former military colleagues. 

Like all things there are good and bad.  I wouldn't say the military experience I have seen is an auto step above anyone else.  Some are really good others are not.  Im on the sales side of our business and we have maybe 40% sales guys with military experience.  The main issue I see is they need to be told what to do and exactly how to do it.  I dont see a lot of thinking outside the box with new and innovative ideas to create new business.  But if there are procedures to follow, they are great at it.  In the O n G industry, an ex enlisted guy with a GED can make great money, however I think that time is mostly coming to an end with energy policies.

As far as recommending someone to join:  I did and the startup I work for was big on military guys so it worked for me.  Where we are now 10 yrs later, we want industry experience, preferably from a competitor we can train.  Military experience may or may not be a bonus.

I dont want my kids to join.  Not after the way GWOT was handled.  I feel like it was Vietnam 2.0.  Nothing was learned.  My best friend from highschool quit college on 9/15 became SF in the ARMY.  I dont know how many deployments he did and how many buddies he lost.  He was awarded the purple heart and just retired after 20+ yrs.  All that time away from his family and the dude is not the same and for what?

I did try to get my brother in law to join hte AF as a load or boom for obvious reasons (Travel, college, experience).  His family doesn't have much and he was limited on options.  Well he didn't and joined the Army after too many years in college figuring out his path.  He's an 01, but he could be a civi now had he listened with 0 dept.  

Lots of guys that were in their 20's 10 yrs ago now have kids.  Willing to bet not many will push for a career in the military.  It will be a long problem.

[tac airlifter]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:34 PM, General Chang said:

Please.  Your ignorance about what goes into being at this level is abhorrent.

I'm sure this is a troll account, but that dismissiveness is remarkably similar to replies I've received in person.  Your inability to self-reflect is exactly why we lost and will continue to lose.  Our generals can't win wars, and so no, my kids won't join and you'll keep grappling with a recruiting crisis.

Edited July 19, 2023 by tac airlifter

[GKinnear]

43 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

I'm sure this is a troll account

@BashiChuni's sock-puppet is top-tier!  With all due respect...even knowing how the magic works, I'll still down-vote Chang every chance I get.

[joe1234]

This entire thread is literally that Principal Skinner meme where he's like, "Am I out of touch? No, it's the kids who are wrong!"

Anyway, I'm absolutely steering my kids away from the military. It's a great deal for some working class kid from a flyover state in a recession like I was, but at least I had an economic justification to willingly be a pawn of American imperialism.

Sure, serve your country, patriotism, blah blah blah, nobody's falling for that bull in 2023 besides the rare few who are already signing up.

[Bigred]

This thread is wild and baffling. Military service is good for the person and it's good for the country.

I encourage my kids to join. I have three and I think one will. I told them the same thing my dad told me, do four years and if you're having fun keep going. Otherwise get out. 

The more we isolate the military from all classes of the population the more we will see the political-mil issues we see today. 

[hindsight2020]

Hold up, point of order: The upper and upper-middle classes self-isolate from military service all on their own, no compelling needed. So don't go putting that on us W2 serfs/transactional military members, and certainly not our progeny. As I've said before, the temerity of acussing veterans of sabotaging recruitment. Ingrates. The DoD can take their shameless victim blaming, roll it into a fag, and fox2 it up their own six.

To wit, New England isn't pulling their fair share of the blood spilling from where I sit, go lecture them about it. And I digress.

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

Hold up, point of order: The upper and upper-middle classes self-isolate from military service all on their own, no compelling needed. So don't go putting that on us W2 serfs/transactional military members, and certainly not our progeny. As I've said before, the temerity of acussing veterans of sabotaging recruitment. Ingrates. The DoD can take their shameless victim blaming, roll it into a fag, and fox2 it up their own six.

To wit, New England isn't pulling their fair share of the blood spilling from where I sit, go lecture them about it. And I digress.

So your argument is; because people in the upper classes, whom most on this board have zero influence and interactions, don’t pull their share with the military than the rest of us shouldn’t as well? 

I hold no illusions that there are parts of the DoD that suck. There are also parts that are awesome.

My concern is when I hear of current and former military actively discouraging people from joining. There’s nothing wrong with telling the truth, bluntly, to those that are interested. But tell both sides, the good and the bad, and let them decide. 

[Longhorn15]

I always knew the AF/DoD didn’t care about me. I lived with that during the numerous deployments that achieved very little. I at least had fun with the bros.

It is somehow worse that we now are deploying people for 6 months to train. It grates on me far worse than any combat deployment ever did.

Just when you think it can’t get worse, the military finds a way.


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[skybert]

[skybert]

That is why I tell normal young people to seriously think about wearing the uniform I used to wear.

[M2]

Loved my career, even despite the shitty parts of which there were plenty, and I'm especially thankful for all the great people I met along the way.

Not sure if I would make the same decision now as I did 40+ years ago though...

[brabus]

It’s all hindsight - of course it’s easy to sit here and think about all the negative shit as a disgruntled 10+ year vet. You also had a lot of good times and did awesome shit. Tell kids those stories and let them go have the same awesome experiences amidst the bullshit. News flash, there’s bullshit in every avenue of life. I don’t envy the 23 yr old Delta FO a single bit. I couldn’t give two fucks how senior he’ll be at 65, how much $ he’ll make over a career, etc…he will never have the badass experiences I’ve had, he’ll never go to awesome places I’ve been, he won’t know the camaraderie that combat brings. I acknowledge he also won’t ever know the pain, the hardship, and the struggles. No ragrets - do it young guys. 

[joe1234]

This is exactly what I mean by out of touch.

Sure, you personally couldn't give two fucks how senior he'll be at 65 or how much he'll make, but, dude, nobody's asking you. You're not the recruit, he is. He gives two fucks. That's the point. These kids don't care about your experiences, don't think it's badass, and certainly don't give a shit about your bros. The proof is right there in the numbers.

You have to meet these people where they are and make a case for how the military might the best way to achieve what they want (regardless of what that is). If you can't make that case, then, maybe your case doesn't have much merit.

[brabus]

What are you talking about, I can easily name lots of solid, positive things and tell positive stories. I don’t try to convince anyone, I just paint the most honest picture I can for those that ask. I shit on the AF all the time and am ecstatic to be mostly into phase 2 of life. But I’m also honest and not going to just rant negatively while pretending I didn’t have a lot of positive experiences along the way. You’re arguing there is no positive picture to be painted and everything is shit. Must be miserable going through life as such a negative person. 
 

Bottom line, I will always speak generally positive about the mil experience because that’s what it was. I will also be happy to talk about all the bullshit and things that piss me off. I’m glad I did it and I’m glad I’m on my way out…two things can be true at the same time, but for some people here I think all they think about is their last 5 years and completely ignore the first 15 (or however long it was fun for them personally before they became jaded and disgruntled).

Edited July 24, 2023 by brabus

[gearhog]

Overall, I liked my career. 22 years. The vast majority within the context of the GWOT or whatever we're going to call that period. But it's over. This is a different era. Different enemies, different leadership, rules, procedures, technology, and social values. Many of the things I liked most about my career couldn't happen today. I didn't become jaded and disgruntled. I became experienced and wiser. The military changed more than I did. My perspective broadened as time went on. It's fun believing in the Easter Bunny until you find out he's not real and the eggs come from factory farms.

What about serving today is better than 10-20 years ago? Why do you think it will remain the same or improve for someone who joins today?

[brabus]

I don’t know if it’s better, nor did I say that. But I don’t think it’s a bad career option, idea, desire, etc. I can name all kinds of things I think we’ve become dumber with, but again, that does not make the positive things cease to exist. I’ll continue to be mostly positive to young people when they ask, as I’ve seen just about every major corner of operational and below a fighter guy can see and overall it was a great experience that I’ll always be grateful for having. I guess I just didn’t have a shitty experience like some guys on here.

Edited July 24, 2023 by brabus

[joe1234]

10 hours ago, brabus said:

But I’m also honest and not going to just rant negatively while pretending I didn’t have a lot of positive experiences along the way. You’re arguing there is no positive picture to be painted and everything is shit. Must be miserable going through life as such a negative person. 

Show me where anyone made that argument. I'll wait, cause I know you're making shit up right now.

What I'm talking about is that you keep going on and on about your own experiences. "I can name positive experiences...", "I just paint...", "I'm also honest...". In the post before that, you went on and on about how some kid that goes to Delta at 23 "will never have the badass experiences I had" and so on.

It's not about you bro, goddamn, try taking yourself out of the conversation for 5 seconds. You even assume others must have been miserable while they were in, because otherwise why would we not agree? That's because recognize that it's not about us. It's not about you.

It's not about your past, it's about relating relevant info about the kid's future, that's literally all I'm saying. Great that you can share stories from your past, but if that's all you have to offer, then you're hopelessly out of touch.

[herkbum]

Show me where anyone made that argument. I'll wait, cause I know you're making shit up right now.
What I'm talking about is that you keep going on and on about your own experiences. "I can name positive experiences...", "I just paint...", "I'm also honest...". In the post before that, you went on and on about how some kid that goes to Delta at 23 "will never have the badass experiences I had" and so on.
It's not about you bro, goddamn, try taking yourself out of the conversation for 5 seconds. You even assume others must have been miserable while they were in, because otherwise why would we not agree? That's because recognize that it's not about us. It's not about you.
It's not about your past, it's about relating relevant info about the kid's future, that's literally all I'm saying. Great that you can share stories from your past, but if that's all you have to offer, then you're hopelessly out of touch.

How can you not talk about your own experiences? Especially since that is what people are asking you about, at least in my experience. Your opinion is formed by how the experience affected you and those you know.

If someone wanted to ask about something they hadn’t experienced, go ask a college professor. Most of them don’t have any real experience in what they are “experts” in, they only learned about something by reading.


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[joe1234]

I didn't say don't talk about them, I said it needs to be relevant to their future. Keywords "their future".

Doing this requires having to actually relate to what they want in life, and understanding how things  have changed since you were in, and how they are likely to change in the future. That's an actual useful insight.

[brabus]

You’re pissing words into the wind, WTF are you rambling about? It’s weird how annoyed you are that someone would speak positively to kids about the military.

kid: “what’s it like to be a pilot in the AF” 

joe: “I can’t tell you kid because I have no idea what it’ll be like in 10 years.“

kid: “uh ok, well can you tell me about your experience. Are jets XYZ, have you ever XYZ, what’s it like to XYZ”

Joe: “I told you, I can’t see the future and only you know you. So go fuck off so I can sit here and drink my cranberry juice in peace.”

God I hope you’ve never been the guy standing at an air show static.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by brabus

[joe1234]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

You’re pissing words into the wind, WTF are you rambling about? It’s weird how annoyed you are that someone would speak positively to kids about the military.

[slc]

3 hours ago, joe1234 said:

how some kid that goes to Delta at 23 "will never have the badass experiences

Uh, that's because he won't flying the magenta line.  Of course that's all subjective because it's all he'll ever know anyway right?

[jonlbs]

Gonna try and help this back and forth and maybe I’m wrong, but I think what @joe1234 is trying to say is that you can talk about your awesome experiences all you want (and everyone on this forum agrees) but this new generation doesn’t care about what you thought were awesome experiences. 

An exaggerated example would be…you thought doing strafing runs and saving dudes fighting on the ground was the most rewarding thing ever (and again we would all agree), but this new generation seemingly does not give a shit about that and would rather be learning something new about programming or developing software or something like that. 
 

During my time working with ROTC I was shocked at how little people actually wanted to fly, I figured there would be 100 kids fighting for pilot slots but that just isn’t the case. I’m actually shocked at how many people I fly with at the airlines that have absolutely no interest in military flying or ever had any interest in anything military in general. So targeting the kids with your experiences might not work

 

anyways I hope that was the point Joe was trying to make before it got lost in translation. I do think we have to be honest in understanding what kids are wanting out of service but also we can’t reshape our service too much.

[joe1234]

That was exactly what I was trying to say, thank you.

[pawnman]

47 minutes ago, jonlbs said:

 

During my time working with ROTC I was shocked at how little people actually wanted to fly, I figured there would be 100 kids fighting for pilot slots but that just isn’t the case. I’m actually shocked at how many people I fly with at the airlines that have absolutely no interest in military flying or ever had any interest in anything military in general. So targeting the kids with your experiences might not work. 

I had a similar experience my first year in ROTC, but it was also amazing to see how many cadets became interested in flying once they had two rated officers in the detachment telling flying stories. We went from like 3 freshmen in a class of 30 being interested to commissioning over half the graduating class into rated spots.

The cadets in ROTC already want to join the Air Force...I don't think you need to push too hard to get them interested in aviation. A lot of them had pre-screened themselves out "because I don't have perfect vision" or "I had a concussion once in junior high". All it took was a little education to convince them to at least apply and make the Air Force turn them down instead of keeping themselves from even competing.