The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

Not character assassinating, but to imply that the military = socialism and that military members warning about its’ historically documented failures because they live under a safety net comes from a place of ignorance, is intellectually dishonest.

Valid points on trying to frame everything as socialist or capitalist.  Economic structures exist on a scale for sure.  However, economies are more likely to collapse the closer they go to the left end of that scale.  Scandinavia is learning that the hard way, their inherent wealth has prevented them from learning it in too hard of a fashion.  

What’s going on with the Scandinavian economy? Not an accusatory question. Genuinely interested. 

[SurelySerious]

7 minutes ago, Prozac said:

What’s going on with the Scandinavian economy? Not an accusatory question. Genuinely interested. 

I’ll probably butcher this, read about it a few months ago, but Sweden went hard socialist economic policy and by the late 90s ish they made a hard course correction to a capitalist economic  system because their country was in danger of collapsing. Still recovering if you will. 
 

When people point to Sweden, they’re not a socialist economic structure anymore. They’re probably on par or more strictly capitalist than the US in some ways. Ruthless capitalism in article below, but because of their error in trying to implement socialist economic structures. 
 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-bernie-sanders-is-wrong-about-sweden-11566596536

Edited June 27, 2020 by SurelySerious

[Prozac]

13 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

I’ll probably butcher this, read about it a few months ago, but Sweden went hard socialist economic policy and by the late 90s ish they made a hard course correction to a capitalist economic  system because their country was in danger of collapsing. Still recovering if you will. 
 

When people point to Sweden, they’re not a socialist economic structure anymore. They’re probably on par or more strictly capitalist than the US in some ways. Ruthless capitalism in article below, but because of their error in trying to implement socialist economic structures. 
 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-bernie-sanders-is-wrong-about-sweden-11566596536

Ok, so not necessarily something that’s happened recently. So here we may have an example of where many of us talk past each other when arguing for our causes. While there certainly are people making an argument for real socialism, I don’t think that’s the mainstream progressive argument in the United States. Let’s look at why so many progressives (and I consider myself one much of the time) like to point to Scandinavia. Sweden currently has a successful capitalist economy. Yet they also have a robust social safety net, high wages, massive union participation, universal healthcare, and a government funded education system that’s considered one of the best in the world, amongst many other “socialist” leaning policies. So it’s possible to have your cake and eat it too. Now, I realize that the Swedish economy has had its struggles and that the country is currently grappling with issues as varied as immigration and pandemic response. Not perfect. I get it. But.....when you hear the “lefties” argue for “socialism” in our country, take the time to listen to what they’re actually advocating. It’s usually not literal socialism. We most definitely do not have to agree with each other (Royal ‘we’, not necessarily referring to you and I specifically), but it helps to know what the other guy’s actual position is when it comes to good, constructive debate. Fox/CNN/Facebook, etc. have been extremely unhelpful in this regard. 

[dream big]

5 hours ago, Prozac said:

Ok, so not necessarily something that’s happened recently. So here we may have an example of where many of us talk past each other when arguing for our causes. While there certainly are people making an argument for real socialism, I don’t think that’s the mainstream progressive argument in the United States. Let’s look at why so many progressives (and I consider myself one much of the time) like to point to Scandinavia. Sweden currently has a successful capitalist economy. Yet they also have a robust social safety net, high wages, massive union participation, universal healthcare, and a government funded education system that’s considered one of the best in the world, amongst many other “socialist” leaning policies. So it’s possible to have your cake and eat it too. Now, I realize that the Swedish economy has had its struggles and that the country is currently grappling with issues as varied as immigration and pandemic response. Not perfect. I get it. But.....when you hear the “lefties” argue for “socialism” in our country, take the time to listen to what they’re actually advocating. It’s usually not literal socialism. We most definitely do not have to agree with each other (Royal ‘we’, not necessarily referring to you and I specifically), but it helps to know what the other guy’s actual position is when it comes to good, constructive debate. Fox/CNN/Facebook, etc. have been extremely unhelpful in this regard. 

Sweden, Denmark are able to do that for multiple reasons.  Inherent wealth, low comparative population, and let’s not forget cultural factors as well, like a highly homogeneous** population.  Easy to have a strong collective safety net when most individuals think the same. Also think about the lifestyle and health of your average Scandinavian compared to Americans, of course healthcare costs are manageable. 

I can’t think of many conservatives that are advocating for removing our safety nets, but a Scandinavian type of welfare/healthcare system simply wouldn’t work in America.  What has proven to work is robust capitalism, free markets, individual responsibility with a safety net for those who truly cannot provide for themselves. 

Edit: words are hard 

Edited June 27, 2020 by dream big

[Breckey]

Wasn't Obamacare supposed to be part of that safety net?

[SurelySerious]

39 minutes ago, dream big said:

Sweden, Denmark are able to do that for multiple reasons.  Inherent wealth, low comparative population, and let’s not forget cultural factors as well, like a highly monogamous population.  Easy to have a strong collective safety net when most individuals think the same. Also think about the lifestyle and health of your average Scandinavian compared to Americans, of course healthcare costs are manageable. 

I can’t think of many conservatives that are advocating for removing our safety nets, but a Scandinavian type of welfare/healthcare system simply wouldn’t work in America.  What has proven to work is robust capitalism, free markets, individual responsibility with a safety net for those who truly cannot provide for themselves. 

 

*homogenous population, I think what you meant there. Who knows what relationships the Swedes are up to, though. 

[disgruntledemployee]

On 6/25/2020 at 11:05 AM, brawnie said:

Baseops, like most military social circles, is an echo chamber of people who have never had their views confronted.

You ever sit back and just let the irony that you all live and work in a socialist paradise wash over you? Once you're in, your job is secure (you face no chance of an immediate layoff, and the VAST majority of people can make it to 20-40 years if they want to), your healthcare is paid for, you get an affordable housing allowance based on your status in the system (oh and it changes based on where you are in America), you have a perception that budget doesn't matter (who cares how much that FHP or those TVs costs, just fly it and buy it so we get more money next year), you get basically guaranteed promotions that are based more on timing than on merit, you're handed a ridiculous retirement package that requires no self-involvement or contributions, the worst workers are paid the same as the best, you get paid when a pandemic causes you not to work at all for weeks, you get regular wage increases that keep up with or exceed inflation, you have 30 days of paid leave a year. The military organization keeps hundreds of thousands of people on payroll (in a money bleeding way) just in case they need them, paying them way more than the value we get out of them (the vast majority of the military is a self-licking ice cream cone when we aren't at real war). The military system is the antithesis to self-reliance, meritocracy, accountability, ROI, or profitability. But it sure is nice to be in it right now when the system out there isn't taking care of people.

 

On 6/25/2020 at 11:10 PM, ImNotARobot said:

A masterpiece.

I think that BODN is a place where views are "confronted."  Just look at this topic. 

 I've never lived in a socialist state, so I don't know what that is like, nor have I visited a socialist paradise.  I do live in a state that has fewer restrictions than others and lets me live the way I want.  So that's pretty cool (except for the no beer sales on Sunday, that's just un-American!)

2. My military job was secure, except for the RIFs, non-continuations for not promoting, medical discharges, or taking a mortar while sleeping in Iraq.  I think 26 years is mandatory retirement for Os unless you make general?  Who goes to 40?

Anyway, I could spend all afternoon trying to counter all you're echo chambered points, but I got garage work to do and beer to drink, paid for my that ridiculous retirement package, all while wondering what my next job will be as I get laid off soon. 

Out

[SurelySerious]

1 hour ago, Breckey said:

Wasn't Obamacare supposed to be part of that safety net?

Allegedly, but it was a not-well-thought-out Frankenstein; also no floor debate happened on a what, several thousand page sweeping bill? Maybe next time we should actually legislate.  

There’s a decent write up about how Germany and the Netherlands do their public-private healthcare in today’s WSJ. Pretty thought provoking, I think. 
 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-will-transform-health-insurance-as-we-know-it-11593179876?st=12zkdvi47pbisy7&reflink=article_copyURL_share

Edited June 27, 2020 by SurelySerious

[SurelySerious]

4 hours ago, Prozac said:

Ok, so not necessarily something that’s happened recently. So here we may have an example of where many of us talk past each other when arguing for our causes. While there certainly are people making an argument for real socialism, I don’t think that’s the mainstream progressive argument in the United States. Let’s look at why so many progressives (and I consider myself one much of the time) like to point to Scandinavia. Sweden currently has a successful capitalist economy. Yet they also have a robust social safety net, high wages, massive union participation, universal healthcare, and a government funded education system that’s considered one of the best in the world, amongst many other “socialist” leaning policies. So it’s possible to have your cake and eat it too. Now, I realize that the Swedish economy has had its struggles and that the country is currently grappling with issues as varied as immigration and pandemic response. Not perfect. I get it. But.....when you hear the “lefties” argue for “socialism” in our country, take the time to listen to what they’re actually advocating. It’s usually not literal socialism. We most definitely do not have to agree with each other (Royal ‘we’, not necessarily referring to you and I specifically), but it helps to know what the other guy’s actual position is when it comes to good, constructive debate. Fox/CNN/Facebook, etc. have been extremely unhelpful in this regard. 

Somewhat, but for instance when I listen to what Bernie describes when he figuratively points to “Nordic model” and Sweden, his words are not what they have in Sweden. Maybe that’s my perception. 

[otsap]

28 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Somewhat, but for instance when I listen to what Bernie describes when he figuratively points to “Nordic model” and Sweden, his words are not what they have in Sweden. Maybe that’s my perception. 

An important aspect of the "Nordic model" that I don't often hear about, which is germane to the discussion about the U.S. healthcare system, is the massive disparity in medical technology and advancements.  The U.S. accounts for 91% of the entire world's medical advances measured by patented devices, therapies, and procedures, as well as peer-reviewed research.  That's the power of the profit-motive, for better or worse.  For example, the average cost of bringing to market a generic drug (i.e.,Tylenol knockoff) is $500 million.  The average cost of a brand new drug is $2 billion.  These accounts for research, development, compliance, FDA protocols, and trials.  The prices could be lowered, but there's a deleterious effect on safety in doing so.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out that with a single-payer, Nordic style system, profit motive is diminished if not removed since that system necessitates price controls.  Now we could certainly move to that system, but we have to accept a lower level of progress in medical research breakthroughs.  This is an area I research and I haven't seen a way around that trade-off.  Maybe we're at a point where that's an acceptable policy; after all, medicine has come a long way and universal coverage could arguably be worth it.  On the other hand, the medical breakthrough that enables us to repair a damaged spinal cord and reverse a patient's paralysis, which is maybe 10 years away, will now be about 40-50 years away.  That's the trade-off, and it's kind of a crappy one to consider no matter which side you take.

Medical research is a little expensive, doing it safely is REALLY expensive.  Without a profit motive, those breakthroughs will slow; they just will.

[Prozac]

Appreciate the discussion on the Nordic model but my intent wasn’t to derail the thread. Rather, I wanted to present an example of how flawed the debate process is in our society as of late. Media, whether “liberal” or “conservative” tends to present extreme examples of the other side as representative of what that side is advocating. The BLM protests are a great example. Liberal media seems to focus on and present long standing deficiencies in police departments as representative of all police, all the time. Conservative media seems to want to present all protesters as a highly organized ANTIFA mob bent on systemically burning down the suburbs now that they’ve gutted downtown Seattle and Minneapolis. Of course, neither narrative is true. Media is shaping the debate based on its own interest: increasing viewership through sensationalism. We are all being played here and in the process we are losing the ability to have an effective debate and worse, losing the ability to be civil and treat each other with respect. I may lean to the liberal side of the spectrum, but I don’t see my conservative friends as the enemy. Just like me, they want this country to be In a better place. We just happen to disagree at times on how to get there. 

[Clark Griswold]

Cognitive dissonance thy name is woke...

VIDEO: Protesters request police presence for 'defund the police' rally, citing their safety

 

[SurelySerious]

2 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Cognitive dissonance thy name is woke...

VIDEO: Protesters request police presence for 'defund the police' rally, citing their safety

 

Would also belong in WTF thread. Jeez. 

[Clark Griswold]

Where Antifa is drawing its Revolutionary LARPers from:

Authors: Antifa Rioters Are the Tech Economy’s College Discards

Race, Identity, etc... all are distractions while the overclass sell out this and other countries.  It's class warfare and "they" are winning.

 

[GrndPndr]

I don't know, it seems alot like the Wall St. 99% thing from a few years back.  The faces [sic] are the same.  Here's an interesting take on it:

https://youtu.be/O-253uBJap8?t=32

[dream big]

12 hours ago, GrndPndr said:

I don't know, it seems alot like the Wall St. 99% thing from a few years back.  The faces [sic] are the same.  Here's an interesting take on it:

https://youtu.be/O-253uBJap8?t=32

While their are similarities, our situation now is a lot more violent and nasty.  Someone can maybe prove me wrong but I don’t believe anyone died from rogue “protestors” shooting up people; the occupy wall street, albeit full of loons, was mostly peaceful.  OWS also didn’t have racial undertones to it which complicates matters. Antifa also didn’t exist in full force back then which is now a present day domestic terror threat. 
 

Believe me I hope to god this dies down but I have a bad feeling this is going to get uglier before it gets better, especially based on the outcome of the election. 

[lloyd christmas]

8 hours ago, dream big said:

Believe me I hope to god this dies down but I have a bad feeling this is going to get uglier before it gets better, especially based on the outcome of the election. 

It is going to get much worse.  Just wait until the police officers in Atlanta are acquitted.  

[Clark Griswold]

God bless the McCloskeys

 

[Guest nsplayr]

I'm confused here @Clark Griswold. I think you're lionizing a pair of barefoot homeowners coming out on to their porch and brandishing loaded weapons at people as they marched by their house during a protest of the Mayor who lived down the block? And with very poor trigger and barrel discipline I might add, I'm glad that they didn't accidentally shoot each other nor any of the protesters frankly.

By all means, defend yourself if you are being physically assaulted and call the cops and/or intervene at your own risk if someone is damaging your property, but you can't just walk out of your house and point loaded weapons and people out on the street.

This is not what responsible gun ownership looks like nor what responsible home ownership looks like, and I say that as both a gun owner and a homeowner.

Standard disclosure so my conservative friends don't have an aneurysm: the Seattle anarchists/CHAZ/CHOP/whatever are f*cking stupid, looting is dumb, and I prefer a peaceful, orderly situation in my city as much as any of y'all do. But those two knuckleheads in the post above are also not helping the situation at all.

Edited July 1, 2020 by nsplayr

[Clark Griswold]

I'm confused here [mention=20373]Clark Griswold[/mention]. I think you're lionizing a pair of barefoot homeowners coming out on to their porch and brandishing loaded weapons at people as they marched by their house during a protest of the Mayor who lived down the block? And with very poor trigger and barrel discipline I might add, I'm glad that they didn't accidentally shoot each other nor any of the protesters frankly. By all means, defend yourself if you are being physically assaulted and call the cops and/or intervene at your own risk if someone is damaging your property, but you can't just walk out of your house and point loaded weapons and people out on the street.

This is not what responsible gun ownership looks like nor what responsible home ownership looks like, and I say that as both a gun owner and a homeowner.

Standard disclosure so my conservative friends don't have an aneurysm: the Seattle anarchists/CHAZ/CHOP/whatever are f*cking stupid, looting is dumb, and I prefer a peaceful, orderly situation in my city as much as any of y'all do. But those two knuckleheads in the post above are also not helping the situation at all.

 

Not gonna argue about their personal techniques of weapons handling but when you are threatened with physical violence on your own property by an unruly mob violating private property you have the right to self defense to include deterrent actions like showing said violent illegal mob you have the capability and intent to use lethal force so go back to whatever shithole or x-grievance studies department you came from.

 

They ignored Private Property signs, destroyed a locked iron gate, used vulgar and violent language threatening the couple and their property to include an innocent pet.

 

If they want to protest the mayor fine but if the mayor lives on a private drive not open to the public then tough shit you’ll have to find somewhere else to be noisy, ignorant and delusional.

 

Gun owner and homeowner myself and if they got any closer to them while gathered in numbers to intimidate and were threatening them they would have had every right to drop them.

 

Cute move to try to belittle them by pointing out they were shoeless when they were surprised at home just as they were sitting down to dinner, there’s a photo of a soldier at a FOB fighting in pink boxers as the Taliban attacked and he was lionized and loved for it I wonder why that’s not the case now? you fight with what you have on when the enemy surprise you, they didn’t retreat and didn’t back down, I think that’s what’s really pissing off the D’s and media, someone finally pushed back, I hope it happens more.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest nsplayr]

The protesters come from "shitholes," are "a violent & illegal mob," study "x-grievance programs in college," are "the enemy" and "deserve to be dropped." Cool cool, sorry to have engaged, I see that your mind is well made up.

Honestly it makes me sad and disappointed that you just casually talk about your fellow citizens or just fellow human beings like that. This isn't war, where sometimes you need to dehumanize and "other-ize" in order to kill the enemy; this is America.

What I'm arguing for re: this couple and your lionizing of them is that de-escalation of the situation and demonstrating responsible gun ownership would have been a better path.

These folks are not heroic for branshing loaded firearms at people on the street walking by their house, with fingers often on the triggers and while also occasionally barrel-checking each other's backs. That's reckless behavior that I know you wouldn't tolerate in a combat zone, let alone what should be the expectation while on your front lawn in Anytown, USA.

[busdriver]

37 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

de-escalation of the situation and demonstrating responsible gun ownership would have been a better path.

To be fair, the first part may have been very much already escalated, intentionally by portions of the protester group.  There is a lot we don't really know about that whole situation. 

The dude looked to be wildly inept at firearm handling skills.  Depending on what was being said to them, his wife may have committed an assault.  

You calling them "shoe-less" is as much "othering" language as his.

[SocialD]

It's times like this that I'm so glad l live (mostly) out here in the sticks.  Just as soon as I can secure some land for my grass strip, I'll be even further out.  It's much cheaper, the people are good and violent protestors know better than to come out our way. 

 

It appears the protestors broke through a gated fence to get on that street, which is private property, and some are being charged with trespassing and assault by intimidation.  Thankfully they're lawyers.  I'm a gun lover as much as the next person.  I probably would have been out there monitoring my property, but with my gun safely in its holster.  

[Clark Griswold]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

The protesters come from "shitholes," are "a violent & illegal mob," study "x-grievance programs in college," are "the enemy" and "deserve to be dropped." Cool cool, sorry to have engaged, I see that your mind is well made up.

Honestly it makes me sad and disappointed that you just casually talk about your fellow citizens or just fellow human beings like that. This isn't war, where sometimes you need to dehumanize and "other-ize" in order to kill the enemy; this is America.

What I'm arguing for re: this couple and your lionizing of them is that de-escalation of the situation and demonstrating responsible gun ownership would have been a better path.

These folks are not heroic for branshing loaded firearms at people on the street walking by their house, with fingers often on the triggers and while also occasionally barrel-checking each other's backs. That's reckless behavior that I know you wouldn't tolerate in a combat zone, let alone what should be the expectation while on your front lawn in Anytown, USA.

I'll take you at good faith and yes my mind is made up about the Woke Movement.   

I would call them citizens of the same country but not fellows nor do I have any connection to them other than that.  They believe in things anti-thetical to me, my beliefs and values.  There is no common ground and we can not be friends.  That does not mean we are enemies necessarily and mea culpa for that emotional language used above but we should keep our distance from each other.  Not everything in life is meant to work out, some differences are not soluble and at least to my mind, there is a line between some groups of people that neither side can cross so that's just it.  

I'm not trying to start shit with you but I think your idea of de-escalation is cowering before them, letting them berate you, scream at you, dominate you, accuse you and your recent ancestors of being the cause of everything wrong for some people in this world and that they as the new moral arbiters of our society redistribute your wealth (not theirs btw) and restrict your freedoms and teach your children to despise you, your heritage and ultimately themselves.  That's a somewhat f'd up way to say what I feel/think while trying not to insult you, to seriously discuss with you but I can't describe it any other way.

The  McCloskeys like Trump are not perfect and there is likely some room for critique in their response but IMO not for the response.  How are the mistakes they may or may not have made in handling their weapons worse than what these goddamn animals have been doing setting fires, throwing bricks, looting, tearing down statues with no regard and vandalizing, jumping on cars and assaulting persons not down with struggle or sufficiently enough.  I know that stealing TVs and liquor is the preferred technique to fighting systemic racism so we'll just overlook that but do you not find any fault with those people who were instigating the situation on that private street and private property?

Like you I'm sad too that people in my country otherize me, excuse behavior I think they know is wrong and have lost the ability to hold people to account, even if they were dealt a shitty hand in life at the start, opportunities extended to them and a recognition of past mistakes.   They still have agency though, they still have a choice.  I can have a discussion about how to assist others so that to the maximum realistically possible we can give everyone a good start in life but I'm not gonna ever accept that it is all corrupt and evil from the roots up as they say now.  If that is their position which it appears to be then we need to seriously discuss a new form of the United States, what we have now can not work.

This is different than 1968, we may be like two train cars that just decoupled and drifting close for a short time before we just drift apart inexorably. 

[Guest nsplayr]

7 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

I would call them citizens of the same country but not fellows nor do I have any connection to them other than that.  They believe in things anti-thetical to me, my beliefs and values.  There is no common ground and we can not be friends.  That does not mean we are enemies necessarily and mea culpa for that emotional language used above but we should keep our distance from each other.  Not everything in life is meant to work out, some differences are not soluble and at least to my mind, there is a line between some groups of people that neither side can cross so that's just it.

(break break)  

If that is their position which it appears to be then we need to seriously discuss a new form of the United States, what we have now can not work.

In that case, by your own words, unfortunately you and I are not able to be fellows, friends, etc., and that sucks. I don't agree to that deal.

I'll regularly talk politics with people and my friend group is split fairly evenly between more conservative military types and more liberal neighbors and college friends. Amongst all of them, I've honestly never talked with someone, let alone a fellow servicemember, who was crouched so defensively in his or her own position that they would say things like what you wrote above.

Some of the guys & gals in my current unit are among the most die-hard right-wing Trump supporters I think likely exist, but there is always common ground, there are many shared beliefs and values, and we are friends. I refuse to believe that any honestly-felt differences on politics or policy or even values are so great as to put us in the situation you describe.

Even though I'm not religious per se, I've pledged allegiance to the idea that our nation would be, "One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," and I'm having a hard time squaring your above statements with that same pledge I'm sure you also said many times.

Not trying to attack you with any of this, but real talk, I'm genuinely sad about what you're saying here and the mindset that led you to say what you did. I'm telling you all this out of respect too, because to say nothing would be to abandon you to the very division and discord you seem to not only accept, but even promote. My view is that we cannot be separate if we want to remain equal.

We need people to do the hard work of finding common ground now more than at any previous time in my lifetime and I want to be able to look myself in the mirror and know that I'm trying my best to heal rather than divide.

I hope you will reconsider.