More SARC briefings soon.

[HU&W]

You make a pretty good argument and I agree with most of what you said. But this?

you could make a strong argument that the picture the sq/cc used in her exercise was not inappropriate.

This doesn't make sense to me. The sq/cc selected the picture because she wanted it to be offensive. The whole purpose was to be offensive and see if anyone would speak up. She willfully placed material that she personally felt was sexually offensive in the workplace. You can't have it both ways. Unlike the person who doesn't know they've crossed somebody's line and makes a correction when informed of an accidental indiscretion, she knowingly subjected her subordinates to things she felt were sexually offensive enough that they should have been reported. I'm honestly a little surprised that she's being lauded for her actions instead of being investigated for sexual harassment herself.

Edited November 2, 2013 by HU&W

[Champ Kind]

Soooo.... Crews are not to use "special books" as landing fees in certain SE Asia countries anymore...?

[DirkDiggler]

Soooo.... Crews are not to use "special books" as landing fees in certain SE Asia countries anymore...?

One of my favorite parts about going to Cambodia

[Liquid]

You make a pretty good argument and I agree with most of what you said. But this?

This doesn't make sense to me. The sq/cc selected the picture because she wanted it to be offensive. The whole purpose was to be offensive and see if anyone would speak up. She willfully placed material that she personally felt was sexually offensive in the workplace. You can't have it both ways. Unlike the person who doesn't know they've crossed somebody's line and makes a correction when informed of an accidental indiscretion, she knowingly subjected her subordinates to things she felt were sexually offensive enough that they should have been reported. I'm honestly a little surprised that she's being lauded for her actions instead of being investigated for sexual harassment herself.

Not sure that is true. On the scale of unprofessional and sexually offensive material, a model or a wife in a swimsuit is on the very low end. You could easily argue that you had no duty to remove it because it was not sexually offensive or inappropriate. There is a difference between inappropriate and sexually offensive, and harassment. The picture and the exercise are not sexual harassment. Look up the definition in AFIs and federal law, it is clear. She used a relatively minor prop to try to make a point. Not sure if it was effective, or what her Airmen thought about it. Why do you care? You aren't in her squadron and you don't know her challenges. If you don't agree with it, do it differently when you are a commander. If your commander does the same thing to you, tell him/her why you think it is such a bad idea.

[herkbum]

Not sure that is true. On the scale of unprofessional and sexually offensive material, a model or a wife in a swimsuit is on the very low end. You could easily argue that you had no duty to remove it because it was not sexually offensive or inappropriate. There is a difference between inappropriate and sexually offensive, and harassment. The picture and the exercise are not sexual harassment. Look up the definition in AFIs and federal law, it is clear. She used a relatively minor prop to try to make a point. Not sure if it was effective, or what her Airmen thought about it. Why do you care? You aren't in her squadron and you don't know her challenges. If you don't agree with it, do it differently when you are a commander. If your commander does the same thing to you, tell him/her why you think it is such a bad idea.

It comes across as if it is being held up as an example of what SHOULD be done. And I think that is completely the wrong message that needs to be sent.

[Liquid]

It's "amazing horse" not "sweet lemonade"

How else are folks going to find it on YouTube if you're improperly referencing it.

And it's hilarious.

Ok, thanks for correcting me. I just watched it. I laughed. My wife thought it was moronic asked why I was laughing, then she made some departing comment about how guys are idiots. Not sure though, I wasn't really listening.

Bottom line, the video should not have been repeatedly shown at the duty desk in Balad. TSgt Smith's allegation was properly substantiated in the CDI and the IG report. Her leadership had a duty to keep that shit from happening at work. They failed.

It comes across as if it is being held up as an example of what SHUOLD be done. And I think that is completely the wrong message that needs to be sent.

Valid point. What message should be sent to her CPTS squadron Airmen? How could she have done it better?

[herkbum]

Valid point. What message should be sent to her CPTS squadron Airmen? How could she have done it better?

I don't have a problem with the message, but with the delivery of the message. Why not have a CC call or open discussion forum? Not a set-up where a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation that stretches out over hours or days. If she wanted to demonstrate what is acceptable and what is not, then why not do it in a classroom type environment. Display pic-"this is acceptable," show different pic-"this is not" and then discuss why. Leave the guess work/gray area out of it. No tricks, no gimmicks. Your airmen are adults. Treat them like adults.

Edited November 2, 2013 by herkbum

[pawnman]

So apparently related to the health-and-welfare crusade...have any other squadrons/wings banned alcohol in the debrief yet? We just got a new policy that says, essentially, no alcohol on duty, period, and debriefing is still on duty. Also no alcohol in the vault, period...so mission planning is a lot more boring now.

[uhhello]

So apparently related to the health-and-welfare crusade...have any other squadrons/wings banned alcohol in the debrief yet? We just got a new policy that says, essentially, no alcohol on duty, period, and debriefing is still on duty. Also no alcohol in the vault, period...so mission planning is a lot more boring now.

Yup

[SocialD]

So apparently related to the health-and-welfare crusade...have any other squadrons/wings banned alcohol in the debrief yet? We just got a new policy that says, essentially, no alcohol on duty, period, and debriefing is still on duty. Also no alcohol in the vault, period...so mission planning is a lot more boring now.

Welcome to my life...been that way at my Guard base for >5-6 years. No alcohol on base, state property = state rules. I know of at least 2 other states with the same rule. It has really hurt our afternoon debrief. Guys tend to stick around longer when they can have a jack & coke or beer while hashing out lessons learned.

[Liquid]

I don't have a problem with the message, but with the delivery of the message. Why not have a CC call or open discussion forum? Not a set-up where a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation that stretches out over hours or days. If she wanted to demonstrate what is acceptable and what is not, then why not do it in a classroom type environment. Display pic-"this is acceptable," show different pic-"this is not" and then discuss why. Leave the guess work/gray area out of it. No tricks, no gimmicks. Your airmen are adults. Treat them like adults.

Good points. Maybe she did all that after the experiment. Maybe she did all that prior to the experiment. Maybe she is being very effective at teaching young airmen how to be adults. Maybe not, who knows. But attacking this one instance, simply because PA did an article on it, isn't useful. Particularly when when you add the "I'd hit that", "finance sucks" and "my wife is hot" bullshit to the discussion.

Part of the "treat them like adults" involves correcting poorly led and misinformed crewdogs and pilots that think it is ok to bring sex into work with bullshit word games, call signs and traditions. It is time for all of our officers to act like adults, and professional military officers, and not frat boys. The vast majority of them do. This may be tough to do, tough to change, and may impact retention and morale, but it is worth it. It is time for our current officer leadership to step up and lead our force to accomplish our assigned missions with the resources and constraints given to us by our senior leadership. That is the true challenge of command. Get it done. So I challenge all of you to be great leaders, that understand the dynamics and specific guidance regarding sexual assault, hostile work environments and the intolerance of inappropriate materials at work, understand the METT-TC environment and get the critically important job of killing people, breaking things and defending this nation done. You must take the current guidance, continue to build esprit d' corps, camaraderie and brotherhood, and get it done.

Stop the f*cking bitching and whining and lead this force. The negative attitudes and constant threats of separation and revolt are not doing our force much good.

[Karl Hungus]

The negative attitudes and constant threats of separation and revolt are not doing our force much good.

Yeah. It's the folks that are fleeing (en masse, by the way, the numbers of which even the most delusional of your peers can't deny), yeah, they're the problem.

All of those folks in the 2004 and beyond year groups, the ones who don't talk about anything but where to get their ATP, how to best network with the guard/reserve airline pilots, how to best protect themselves from a 365/RPA/etc, when the next VSP/RIF will be, when to realistically apply for Palace Chase... yeah, those people don't exist, and if they did, they're the problem. We don't need them anyway... the Warrior Monk ShoeClerks can fight the next war.

You can't make this shit up.

[BitteEinBit]

...get it done.

Stop the f*cking bitching and whining and lead this force. The negative attitudes and constant threats of separation and revolt are not doing our force much good.

I appreciate what you're saying and trying to do here, but the type of leadership I'd like to see in today's Air Force is not allowed...we might offend someone. Honest feedback? Nope...we'll just keep letting people believe they can do no wrong...so no one strives to be the best anymore. We just want to look good enough not to get kicked out. If I were allowed to "lead" the way I want to lead, we'd have a lot more people focused on their part of the mission and less on self-serving ambitions. I wouldn't reward self servitude the way the AF does it today.

I don't think you have to worry much about the threats...I think you'll see more action in the coming years, unfortunately. If you won't allow for the kind of dynamic leadership that many of us expect, then you'll have to be willing to deal with the new batch of Generation ME bubbas who lack the discipline to do what is right, and the leadership above to tell them (in a meaningful way) that they are doing it wrong. Remember, we don't want to offend anyone anymore, so all I can do it give you some CBTs and ask nicely that you not behave a certain way.

Good luck. We're all counting on you....

[disgruntledemployee]

Stop the f*cking bitching and whining and lead this force. The negative attitudes and constant threats of separation and revolt are not doing our force much good.

Your kind doesn't trust us!

I've seen it too many times in the last 5 years. So I don't trust you guys anymore. You people have fucked over the good people of the AF with utterly unbelievable fucked up bullshit. I could go on, but I'd be repeating myself and nothing will change.

Out.

[herkbum]

Good points. Maybe she did all that after the experiment. Maybe she did all that prior to the experiment. Maybe she is being very effective at teaching young airmen how to be adults. Maybe not, who knows. But attacking this one instance, simply because PA did an article on it, isn't useful. Particularly when when you add the "I'd hit that", "finance sucks" and "my wife is hot" bullshit to the discussion.

Stop the f*cking bitching and whining and lead this force. The negative attitudes and constant threats of separation and revolt are not doing our force much good.

Can't make those assumptions off the information that was provided. And the info was provided in a sense that perpetuates a way that something should be done. My "f*cking bitching and whining" is done in a very small circle and I am trying to lead the portion of the force that I can affect. But as Bitte says above, senior leadership is not making that easy. There is no place for sexual innuendo in the workplace and I do not condone it. As to the comments "I'd hit that", "finance sucks" and "my wife is hot"- squash that shit immediately and make it clear that is not acceptable in this setting. BE A LEADER!

[sputnik]

Yeah. It's the folks that are fleeing (en masse, by the way, the numbers of which even the most delusional of your peers can't deny), y

Honest question Karl, where are they? I looked up the stats a couple weeks ago and the bonus take rate was....I think 65%. Which is down a bit, but not much. I really expected to see a lot of folks on the way out, but seems like it isn't happening.

[Liquid]

Your kind doesn't trust us!

I've seen it too many times in the last 5 years. So I don't trust you guys anymore. You people have ######ed over the good people of the AF with utterly unbelievable ######ed up bullshit. I could go on, but I'd be repeating myself and nothing will change.

Out.

I'm getting the sense that you are a disgruntled employee.

http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/07/are-you-creating-disgruntled-e/

Some of the pros say disgruntled employees and employers need to start trusting each other. Others say you need to protect your "company" from the damage disgruntled employees will do. I think I get why you don't trust "my kind", but I don't know why "my kind" doesn't trust you. Can you explain?

[Liquid]

I appreciate what you're saying and trying to do here, but the type of leadership I'd like to see in today's Air Force is not allowed...we might offend someone. Honest feedback? Nope...we'll just keep letting people believe they can do no wrong...so no one strives to be the best anymore. We just want to look good enough not to get kicked out. If I were allowed to "lead" the way I want to lead, we'd have a lot more people focused on their part of the mission and less on self-serving ambitions. I wouldn't reward self servitude the way the AF does it today.

I don't think you have to worry much about the threats...I think you'll see more action in the coming years, unfortunately. If you won't allow for the kind of dynamic leadership that many of us expect, then you'll have to be willing to deal with the new batch of Generation ME bubbas who lack the discipline to do what is right, and the leadership above to tell them (in a meaningful way) that they are doing it wrong. Remember, we don't want to offend anyone anymore, so all I can do it give you some CBTs and ask nicely that you not behave a certain way.

Good luck. We're all counting on you....

I agree with you on the way we should lead (focus on mission, reject careerists, provide direct and honest feedback) but I don't agree that we don't have leaders like that anymore. They may be scarce in your "tribe" but they are not scarce everywhere.

I don't understand your point that we can't be effective leaders because we must be afraid of offending someone. Can you clarify? Look at it through the lens of the most recent high profile scandals (TSgt Smith, Lt Col Wilkerson and Lt Col Krusinski). Are you arguing that if we had allowed dynamic leadership, we could have swiftly and effectively dealt with the those who lacked the discipline to do the right thing? Did "my kind" tie the hands of the commanders at Shaw and Aviano, preventing the commanders from correcting in a meaningful way those who lacked discipline?

Why do you think we can't have dynamic leaders and commanders anymore?

[Cap-10]

Anyone that says a Runners World cover wasn't about sex, you are out of your mind...there is a reason they display a woman with running shorts and a sports bra on the cover instead of a woman with full leggings, long sleeve shirt, ear muffs and gloves running in the winter...sex sells!

The point about what the young ins are talking about is spot on!!! When I entered the Air Force in the 90's, no one dared talk about getting an ATP, and no one would even mention an airline by name...hell, you were fined for even saying "airline"...only appropriate term was " a-word"

Now, all you hear is where to get an ATP, when is the next SWA app window opening, guys asking to upgrade to SEFE or FCF because they hear it helps get points with the a-words...dudes/dudettes walk into the Reseve office weekly to ask about palace chasing and the next AGR opening.

Cap-10

[magnetfreezer]

 

I agree with you on the way we should lead (focus on mission, reject careerists, provide direct and honest feedback) but I don't agree that we don't have leaders like that anymore. They may be scarce in your "tribe" but they are not scarce everywhere.

I don't understand your point that we can't be effective leaders because we must be afraid of offending someone. Can you clarify? Look at it through the lens of the most recent high profile scandals (TSgt Smith, Lt Col Wilkerson and Lt Col Krusinski). Are you arguing that if we had allowed dynamic leadership, we could have swiftly and effectively dealt with the those who lacked the discipline to do the right thing? Did "my kind" tie the hands of the commanders at Shaw and Aviano, preventing the commanders from correcting in a meaningful way those who lacked discipline?

Why do you think we can't have dynamic leaders and commanders anymore?

Read TSgt Smith's complaint - the assaulters at the core (the MSgt at Sembach, the John Doe in Iraq, or the flight surgeon) could have been investigated and punished without the AF - wide thrash for "offensive" material that did not address any of the horrible things that happened to her. Instead we have this - http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=254177. Maybe I'm wrong but you'd think if the AF was prosecuting the sex offenders responsible they'd trumpet it in the national news.

Re the Wilkerson case - was it not dynamic leadership by Gen Franklin to review the evidence and conclude that the LtCol was falsely accused? One would assume if the AF gave convening authorities (including yourself possibly) the ability to review convictions, it was because of their trust in dynamic leadership to make the right decision on a court-martial appeal.

[JarheadBoom]

What about WSV where Taliban are vaporized into hair, teeth, and eyeballs by the dozens in vivid detail - do you find those images offensive too?

You are astonishingly disconnected from the mindset of the fighting man.

The mentality you have displayed here is better suited to managing a Staples than Generalship of a force that holds as its motto "Fly-Fight-Win".

You can have a force of warriors, or you can have a force of monks, but General, I'm sorry, you simply cannot have your cake and eat it too.

One of the Intel folks at Dhafra this summer was told she needed to "get some help" because she was showing tanker crews video of the strikes they had assisted, and was not offended by the videos. Apparently a crew was offended by video of Talib/AQ/insurgents/targets being destroyed, and was even more offended that the Intel briefer didn't find the videos horrific, offensive, and inappropriate (her words, not theirs)...

edit: fix quote, format

Edited November 3, 2013 by JarheadBoom

[Lord Ratner]

I know it's against popular opinion, but I really appreciate hearing Liquid's thoughts on these items. It's already been quoted, but saying you ordered the removal of that specific nose art will make it a lot easier for an internet detective with a grudge to vet you out - FYI.

Actually, that didn't help much at all. Other stuff has. But I have no intention of scaring away one of the best things to happen to BODN in a while by "outing" him. Suffice it to say he's the real deal.

Either that, or its a very elaborate ruse by someone who researched his past and has way more troll skills than the rest of us will ever understand. Doubt it though.

[Hacker]

an internet detective with a grudge to vet you out - FYI.

The irony that a senior leader would even need to care, much less be worried in some way, about it being publicly known that he was having straight talk with the rank-and-file is staggering.

[waveshaper]

Does anyone know how the Army and Marines are handling the recent elevation of SAPR issues?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRfCpQx_FDE

That just wrong. The only thing that would of made it worse is a bikini.

[Azimuth]

That just wrong. The only thing that would of made it worse is a bikini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVb6VHvCupw