jrobe Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) I was supposed to fly on Friday but alas, MX couldn't produce a jet. I know they have manning issues, especially 7-Levels, I just hope these problems make it up to AMC. MICT will solve everything....even manning There is no way a write up stays a write up....Over and over and over again....it will be fixed by the upper echelon folks Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App! Edited August 3, 2014 by jrobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 I was supposed to fly on Friday but alas, MX couldn't produce a jet. I know they have manning issues, especially 7-Levels, I just hope these problems make it up to AMC. It won't...no one wants to ever admit there is a problem....especially now while big blue is looking to cut people. Remember, we have to make the stats look good...doesn't matter if we are good or not as long as we look good. And don't even complain about manning. We need resilience, not whiners complaining about manning. Now get back to work making those numbers look good. I want to see all green on the slides tomorrow! "If I don't do anything to negatively highlight myself or my workplace, maybe I'll be safe this round of cuts" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbar Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) Part of the problem is we operators need to do a better job educating the support folks. Granted you'll find a lot who could care less but still. Back when I was a young captain and the squadron EWO (insert nav joke here), I took some of the defense avionics troops into the sim so they could kinda see how we use the stuff (would have loved to get them a flight, but crew chiefs should go first and not enough flights to go around). They were really jazzed about it and the senior guy was a MSgt who told me he'd been working on the B-1 for 15 years and this was the first time a crewdawg had taken him into the sim to explain how we use the equipment he worked on. Did the same thing for the radar maintainers and got the same response. Edited August 3, 2014 by pbar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Yeah, that's not right. It's obviously Ops's fault. Negative. It's a culture we've allowed to build up over time in all communities. I can't tell you how many Comm guys I get to re-educate about how the aircraft flying is more important than patching their systems, or doing some nerd work. Look at the ESD, you think anyone educated about providing air power had a hand in deciding to roll-out.. and then kill that atrocity? But.. you think only support guys were involved in that decision? No, it's a failure of Support and the Rated officers who run stuff in the Air Force. I imagine some of the same problems persist with our MX brethren as well. Cyber can't get anyone but Space Generals running. Good thing they know what the local Comm Sq. is going through. Part of the problem is we operators need to do a better job educating the support folks. I'm very thankful for this board because it's helped me realize the Ops side of the house. The Amn in my Flight don't even know the aircraft at my base. I'm trying to think of ways to fix that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Man Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 call the squadrons, ask to speak to the newest Lt, request statics with them...OPR bullets around, perspective gained for your Amn. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/02/air-force-change-of-command/#!bu0Dno Sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slander Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I'm very thankful for this board because it's helped me realize the Ops side of the house. The Amn in my Flight don't even know the aircraft at my base. I'm trying to think of ways to fix that. 2 on what Day Man said...call up the flying squadron scheduling shop, tell them who you are and what you want to do. They should find an Lt or young Capt to bring you out to a jet within a week. If they don't they're stupid. Nobody likes the zipper-suited sungod prima donna reputation and most guys actively try to fix it. We do pet the jet tours about every 3 weeks for the FTAC course at Spang for every FTAC class. I have given a couple of the tours and some of the Airmen had no idea there are fighters in the fighter wing...it's something. "So do you fly the big jets on the other side of the base too?" is a fairly common question. I've also heard that at a non-RoK PACAF base during the mandatory in-processing briefings they actually give the Secret // NO-FORN mission brief of the base and some capes of the jets at a classification higher than "overseas air show." Another thing that has started happening more and more recently is referencing the base and squadron DOC statement missions. I don't know if the CS has a DOC statement mission, I assume it does. Enabling X A/C to deploy in Y hours or something like that? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 If the RC folks are difficult to set up incentive flights, the Nebraska KC-135 are great folks and would help in a heart beat. I spent five years as a Personnelist before I became a Boom. As a support person you get sheltered in your world and it's easy to become oblivious of the real mission of the base you're at. Had I not been in a C-130 squadron, and had been given incentive flights, flown organic airlift, It probably wouldn't of sparked my passion for flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) We as an organization have failed if we have airmen stationed at an overseas fighter base don't know there are fighters located there. No wonder we don't get any support from the "support" functions on base. They all must really think the base is there because of them...because everyone is "tip of the spear...fight tonight" in today's Air Force. We feel left out if we are just considered "support.". If Amn Snuffy doesn't know how their job fits in to the mission of that base or the overall mission of the Air Force then they have failed and the Air Force has failed them. I guess what I think is just basic common knowledge about the Air Force isn't common knowledge at all. I guess I am part of the problem too because I don't make any attempts to educate people on these things either...but then again, I didn't think I had to tell a graduate of BMT assigned to an operational base that information. Bad on me for being blind. Good on all of you folks like 17D and Dayman who are actively trying to change that. If the finance guy at Ramstein can understand why Lt Schmuckatelli from the 37th AS needs a bag of cash at 3am on a Saturday morning because he is going on an Africa mission to bring back stowaways (too soon?) then Airman Bagadonuts won't complain so much when they have to come in on a Saturday to do their job. .they just know that they came in to support a real-world mission. But that isn't how we train our personnel to think....we lead them to believe that they are part of a "0900 to 1100 and 1300-1500 four times a week" kind of organization who has to race to see who can make it out the front gate before retreat is played...and it is just too inconvenient to work on weekends and holidays.. Sad...very sad. Edit: Because I can never type a post without grammarlogical errors.... Edited August 4, 2014 by BitteEinBit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) I try to do this as often as possible, its amazing the looks I get when I tell non-ops people what the day to day like for us. Not to brag about how hard we have it but to make them see the why I need may pay fixed because I got told 12 hours ago I was leaving on a two week stage etc. For the non-ops guys please make a call to your local ops squadron; there's always a Lt. that can spare an hour or two. Edited August 4, 2014 by Fuzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 (edited) Thanks gents, didn't know if I could just call and see about a static. I'm trying to get it rolled into FTAC here so all the Amn can roll through once they get to the base, not just my nerds. Another thing that has started happening more and more recently is referencing the base and squadron DOC statement missions. I don't know if the CS has a DOC statement mission, I assume it does. Enabling X A/C to deploy in Y hours or something like that? Don't know what a DOC statement is. From your last sentence I'd say we don't have one. That would be very difficult for us to develop and we have so many other controlling agencies (DISA, CyberCOM, 24th AF, shudder AFSPC) our mission focus is very difficult to maintain sometimes. I'll ask around though. Edited August 4, 2014 by 17D_guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slander Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Don't know what a DOC statement is. From your last sentence I'd say we don't have one. That would be very difficult for us to develop and we have so many other controlling agencies (DISA, CyberCOM, 24th AF, shudder AFSPC) our mission focus is very difficult to maintain sometimes. "DOC" = Designed Operational Capability You may not have one, I don't know, that's why I asked. Your wing almost certainly does, it's the SIPR side mission statement of what your base is expected by the COCOMs for war making. If you don't...maybe you should get one. It might help your lack of mission focus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 What kills me about MX playing stats games is that those stats should help highlight things like under-manning and acquisitions problems. Guess it's better to hide the problems and kick the can down the road. Fact. However, the on-the-ramp lower ranking wrench benders will give 100% to provide quality maintenance and fix the jet and get it back on status. Those guys just want fix the jet right the first time and not dick around doing "good enough" to meet some magical 8 hour fix rate established back in the 1980s where we tons of people and jets. Give em' the parts and time they need and it'll get done right the first time. It'll hurt but once problem areas are highlighted then steps can be taken to correct them. It's at the AMU (do we still have those?) supervision level where the stats and finger pointing game gets played. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhhello Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Fact. However, the on-the-ramp lower ranking wrench benders will give 100% to provide quality maintenance and fix the jet and get it back on status. Those guys just want fix the jet right the first time and not dick around doing "good enough" to meet some magical 8 hour fix rate established back in the 1980s where we tons of people and jets. Give em' the parts and time they need and it'll get done right the first time. It'll hurt but once problem areas are highlighted then steps can be taken to correct them. It's at the AMU (do we still have those?) supervision level where the stats and finger pointing game gets played. It's so stupid simple. One only needs to look at deployment rates to see what happens when stats take a back burner. I know we get a parts boost but it's infuriating to see a well oiled machine of ops working with mx and vice versa resort back to the stupid fuck fuck numbers games at home. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) Why did we separate OPS and MX in the first place? Seems like the operators want to hack the mish and the maintainers want to turn the jets. All the fighting and bullshit that exists is self induced. I've spent more than my fair share of time on the phone arguing with more than a couple MOOs as to why the 2407 is a MX 2407 and not OPS. All this time spent arguing over who is to blame instead of fixing a larger problem be it the process, personnel or other. Edited August 5, 2014 by Skitzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dupe Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) I left a wing a year ago where, from the WG/CC on down, nobody cared about deviations. Therefore, there was no arguing over MX dev versus Ops dev. It was a really amazing thing.... The stat we cared about was through-put. Edited August 5, 2014 by Dupe 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarheadBoom Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) I'm getting back into the jet after 7 months of downtime, so I wasn't quite up-to-speed on the latest administrivia involved with getting airborne out of WRI. On my second flight, we had a MX issue requiring an avionics box R&R. I called Command Post to let them know about it and give them an ETIC; they responded with "When were you Dash-1 preflight complete?". During start and the extended taxi, I heard at least three other jets on the ramp call in with problems, call blocked out, or call airborne; the initial response from CP was "When were you Dash-1 preflight complete?" each time. They're playing the stupid fucking numbers game again, big-time. edit: format Edited August 5, 2014 by JarheadBoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Why did we separate OPS and MX in the first place? Seems like the operators want to hack the mish and the maintainers want to turn the jets. Hasn't MX moved into and out of OPS in the past decade? Seems like every 7 years they move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stract Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 no, closest it came was back in the 07-08 timeframe, but got shut off at the 11th hour. Ops and MX haven't been together in at least 11 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azimuth Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Why did we separate OPS and MX in the first place? Seems like the operators want to hack the mish and the maintainers want to turn the jets. All the fighting and bullshit that exists is self induced. I've spent more than my fair share of time on the phone arguing with more than a couple MOOs as to why the 2407 is a MX 2407 and not OPS. All this time spent arguing over who is to blame instead of fixing a larger problem be it the process, personnel or other. Because the MX Officers got pissy and whined there were little command progression for them (the MX Officer in a flying Sq worked for the flying Sq/CC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Because the MX Officers got pissy and whined there were little command progression for them (the MX Officer in a flying Sq worked for the flying Sq/CC). How long is the training to become a MX officer? Why can't the rated just do it? Why can't I go to a course, get spun up on AMU manning, processes, MICAP, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dupe Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How long is the training to become a MX officer? Why can't the rated just do it? Why can't I go to a course, get spun up on AMU manning, processes, MICAP, etc? The problems I see are that there just aren't enough rated officers to go around and that officership in the MX world us more than a full-time job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How long is the training to become a MX officer? Why can't the rated just do it? Why can't I go to a course, get spun up on AMU manning, processes, MICAP, etc? You DON'T want that job, no way. Far more than an "additional duty" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How long is the training to become a MX officer? Why can't the rated just do it? Why can't I go to a course, get spun up on AMU manning, processes, MICAP, etc? That's what the Navy does. Your O-3 shop chiefs, in addition to "training", "stan/eval", "mobility", are placed in charge of a MX shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckey Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 How long is the training to become a MX officer? Why can't the rated just do it? Why can't I go to a course, get spun up on AMU manning, processes, MICAP, etc? With all of the complaining about additional duties, I think having a full time one would be even less appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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