Gun Talk

[Boomer6]

42 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

It is curious however that everyone seems to have such a difficult time recreating the problem when they're actually looking for it.

The ol' "could not duplicate". Nothing more comforting than taking a previous code 3 jet with CND in the forms..

[tac airlifter]

Sig is about the get their ass eaten (prison style) in the PR domain.  A holstered weapon needs to be 100% inert, too many credible reports of this not being the case.  Already some shooting courses are denying entry for participants using the 320 on a liability basis.  I’d expect that to cascade and spill over into agency rejection.  Not sure how Sig is holding onto their mil contracts at this point.  G19 remains undefeated.

[Lord Ratner]

53 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

The ol' "could not duplicate". Nothing more comforting than taking a previous code 3 jet with CND in the forms..

I know, which is why my inclination is to be suspicious of the P320. But there's a difference between a couple of maintainers spending 20 minutes on a maintenance issue and hundreds of gun enthusiasts, YouTubers, Federal officials, military officials, and gun industry engineers trying to unravel a mystery and coming up with nothing. 

 

I'd say it's 50/50 whether there's actually something wrong with it, which is to say, who knows 🤷🏻‍♂️?

[ClearedHot]

In other news from the Communist...I mean Democratic Party.

Democrats have put forth an amendment to the Appropriations Bill to raise the NFA tax to $4709.

 

 

[brabus]

Everyone call/email your reps. Unlikely to pass with GOP control, but still a huge threat to constitutional rights. The Dems yet again show their desires to completely unravel the constitution and turn us into a one party-rule, socialist shithole. 

[FourFans]

Sounds to me like the military took a high quality product, demanded it be changed to suit the idiocy of some of our members who should never touch a gun in the first place, then were surprised that the product doesn't function like the OTS product.

SiG makes excellent firearms.  So does Glock.  We should have just picked an OTS product and bought it outright instead demanding it have an extra safety, which is what I understood happened.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited July 24 by FourFans

[uhhello]

13 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

I know, which is why my inclination is to be suspicious of the P320. But there's a difference between a couple of maintainers spending 20 minutes on a maintenance issue and hundreds of gun enthusiasts, YouTubers, Federal officials, military officials, and gun industry engineers trying to unravel a mystery and coming up with nothing. 

 

I'd say it's 50/50 whether there's actually something wrong with it, which is to say, who knows 🤷🏻‍♂️?

From what I've been able to read, all the FBI testing was essentially inconclusive due to the testing requirment modifications that needed to be done to the guns.  Couldn't entirely rule out that the modifications didn't exacerbate the problem.  Where there is smoke, there is fire.  Zero reason to field/employ this system because of that.  The AF got 125,000 M18s for about $150 a pop.  

[Boomer6]

Quality control is a plausible explanation why others arent able to duplicate in significant numbers. Maybe a part in the safety mechanism is prone to excessive wear leading to failure. Either way, if this is a failure of Sig they need to be held accountable.

[uhhello]

3 minutes ago, FourFans said:

Sounds to me like the military took a high quality product, demanded it be changed to suit the idiocy of some of our members who should never touch a gun in the first place, then were surprised that the product doesn't function like the OTS product.

SiG makes excellent firearms.  So does Glock.  We should have just picked an OTS product and bought it outright instead demanding it have an extra safety, which is what I understood happened.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The added manual safety doesn't have any effect on the M18 over the 320.  The 320 was/is having issues without the manual safety.  You aren't wrong that the safety is a dumb govt requirement though.  

Edited July 24 by uhhello

[FourFans]

1 minute ago, uhhello said:

The added manual safety doesn't have any effect on the M18 over the 320.  The 320 was/is having issues without the manual safety.  You aren't wrong that the safety is a dumb govt requirement though.  

If that's the case, I am at a loss to understand why we didn't just buy the G17 and G19 and be done with it.  It's a 9mm pistol that 99% of the time will never be used.

[uhhello]

6 minutes ago, FourFans said:

If that's the case, I am at a loss to understand why we didn't just buy the G17 and G19 and be done with it.  It's a 9mm pistol that 99% of the time will never be used.

SIG came in WAY under what the other test submissions offered.  It also offered the modular functionality that the others didn't.  

[raimius]

On 7/24/2025 at 8:34 AM, Lord Ratner said:

I know, which is why my inclination is to be suspicious of the P320. But there's a difference between a couple of maintainers spending 20 minutes on a maintenance issue and hundreds of gun enthusiasts, YouTubers, Federal officials, military officials, and gun industry engineers trying to unravel a mystery and coming up with nothing. 

 

I'd say it's 50/50 whether there's actually something wrong with it, which is to say, who knows 🤷🏻‍♂️?

Multiple videos on YouTube of P320s firing without anything touching the trigger.  There is definitely a problem.  Search "It NDs today."

When I first heard of cops suing Sig, I figured it was a blame game to keep from being disciplined over their own stupidity.   Now, it looks like at least some of them are legit mechanical malfunctions that resulted in uncommanded discharges.

 

Recommend you unload any P320s and keep them in the safe until more data comes out.  That's what I'm doing.

Edited July 26 by raimius

[brabus]

[M2]

I just read in the DAF A3 Daily Ops Update there was another negligent discharge involving a M18, but allegedly this one was due to user error.  I will post a link on the BaseOps Intellipedia page on SIPRNET...

[slc]

Think I'll keep the M17 I purchased 6 mo. ago on the sidelines....after the watching the Wyoming Gun Project video on Youtube, Sig is in a lot of trouble.  This is definitely concerning....

[brabus]

I wonder what everyone with 320s (or variants) sitting at home will have available to them legally - recall with voucher for a Sig purchase, straight refund to method of purchase, etc. Seems like Sig is really setting themselves up for a ton of lawsuits if they don’t offer an avenue for 320 owners to trade/refund those pistols.

[uhhello]

3 hours ago, brabus said:

I wonder what everyone with 320s (or variants) sitting at home will have available to them legally - recall with voucher for a Sig purchase, straight refund to method of purchase, etc. Seems like Sig is really setting themselves up for a ton of lawsuits if they don’t offer an avenue for 320 owners to trade/refund those pistols.

They've tried the 'upgrade' process already.  Anything short of a full buyback won't pass muster with general public.  Anything they do will open them to further lawsuits.  Unless there is some new testing that completely removes responsibility from the gun itself, it's not going to be pretty. 

[JeremiahWeed]

Off current topic, but looking for holster recommendation for everyday appendix carry.  S&W MP shield, 10/13 rnd mag

[busdriver]

5 hours ago, JeremiahWeed said:

Off current topic, but looking for holster recommendation for everyday appendix carry.  S&W MP shield, 10/13 rnd mag

I have had good luck with JM Custom Kydex for all my appendix needs.

[Prosuper]

On 7/26/2025 at 1:03 AM, raimius said:

Multiple videos on YouTube of P320s firing without anything touching the trigger.  There is definitely a problem.  Search "It NDs today."

When I first heard of cops suing Sig, I figured it was a blame game to keep from being disciplined over their own stupidity.   Now, it looks like at least some of them are legit mechanical malfunctions that resulted in uncommanded discharges.

 

Recommend you unload any P320s and keep them in the safe until more data comes out.  That's what I'm doing.

I got trained on the old Berreta M9, and own one now, because I got trained on it. Never heard of one those going off unless someone playing stupid games winning stupid prizes. Our elders could probably say the same about the 1911 .45 or the SW .38.

[BFM this]

I've been running the Tenicor VELO5 for the past year.  Been an absolutely fantastic holster.  I've been carrying a Hellcat OSP with it.

[brabus]

Whichever holster you choose, just make sure you’re up to date on blow-your-dick-off insurance!

[JeremiahWeed]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Whichever holster you choose, just make sure you’re up to date on blow-your-dick-off insurance!

Soooooo....... Not an appendix carry fan I take it? 😄

[M2]

Army, Marine Corps, Navy have no plan to stop using M18, M17 pistols

The Army, Navy and Marine Corps are not planning to pause use of the M18 pistol as a primary, daily service sidearm for their troops, the services told Task & Purpose, even as units in the Air Force pull the weapon from service after an airman was killed when his M18 discharged last week. 

The Air Force owns close to 75% of the military’s inventory of roughly 165,000 M18 pistols, according to data provided by the Army, Marine Corps, Air Force and procurement documents from the Navy. Exact numbers of M17s currently in use were not immediately available. The Army and Marine Corps indicated in testing and evaluation documents that they intended to buy several hundred thousand of the handguns. A January 2017 contract announcement included a $580 million contract with Sig Sauer to replace the Army’s M9 by 2027.

Officials from the Army, Navy and Marine Corps told Task & Purpose that those services have no plans to pause use of the weapons...

Discharge issue discovered during Army testing

The Department of Defense discovered unexpected discharge issues with the Sig Sauer handgun when the Army began operational testing for the M18 almost a decade ago. The service found that during drop testing with an empty primed cartridge inserted, the gun’s striker struck the round’s primer and caused a discharge. Army officials directed the company to correct the problem by implementing lightweight components in the trigger mechanism, according to a fiscal year 2017 operational test and evaluation report.

Follow-on testing “validated” that the change “corrected the deficiency and the pistol no longer fired when dropped,” the report stated, adding that the new version with the changes was submitted for production.

Sig Sauer conceded the early issues with the Army pistol, noting that testing “above and beyond” national, state, global military and law enforcement standards found that “after multiple drops, at certain angles and conditions, a potential discharge of the firearm may result when dropped.”

 

[M2]

In their report, the Washington commission cited six incidents since 2021 with “uncommanded” discharges involving the M17 and M18. The M18 incidents were:

• In 2023, a Japanese security guard at Camp Foster, Okinawa, “rested their right hand lightly on the rotating cover of a weapon holster” when their M18 discharged.
• Also in 2023, at Camp Pendleton, California, an officer in the armory stopped at a clearing barrel to empty their M18. The officer pulled the pistol out of the holster while it was on safe and removed the magazine. A round discharged from the M18 into the clearing barrel. The officer was “sure that they never touched the trigger of the M18,” and had “ample weapons handling training,” according to the report.
• In 2022, a service member was preparing for his shift at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, when his M18 discharged at his home. He was taken to the hospital for a penetrating gunshot wound with the bullet still “lodged in his knee,” according to the incident report.

With the M17, previous incidents included:

• A military police soldier at Fort Eustis, Virginia, in 2023 injured his foot after his pistol “inadvertently discharged” after making contact with another officer’s gun holster.
• The gun of an Army civilian attending a law enforcement course in 2020 at Leesville Police Range in Louisiana discharged while he drew the pistol from his holster.
• A service member attempting to holster his pistol in 2021 fired a round through his foot at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.