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Changing/Switching airframes


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On 1/23/2021 at 4:21 PM, FLEA said:

I mean, I would NEVER encourage my children to voluntarily join the military anymore. When they are old enough, I will actively discourage them from that decision. The sacrifices simply aren't worth it in the end. 

I used to have a civilian job before I decided one day to apply for an OTS pilot slot. I don’t know your background, but to those here that have only known the Air Force as a job in their adult lives (or a kush airline pilot gig afterwards that was enabled by your AF job), I would caution that the civilian world isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

In fact, it can be unimaginable doldrums where entire years run together into the same memory, and then you die. Even a non-flying AF job has more excitement than 99% of the jobs out there. It’s like an Air Force staff job, except that the things you’re doing are not important whatsoever. Maybe at staff you’re just a cog in the military machine (“Why am I working on Afghanistan stuff, we shouldn’t even be there. Balancing this stupid $690m budget”) but as an average civilian you’re more like a cog on a worn out typewriter that has already been donated to Goodwill and no one’s told you. You’re certainly not doing stuff that kids would be interested in during career day.

Plus the constant financial stress of things like a recession, COVID, and company underperformance that has nothing to do with you. Some kind of Neutron Jack comes in and deletes entire divisions overnight, college grads first. Civilian workers are cast offs and liabilities that take money directly from their bosses wallets. Your Air Force boss might be an asshole, but not like that.

All I’m saying is the grass ain’t greener, and I wouldn’t stop any of my kids from joining the military. Well maybe except the Army.

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100% agree on that. I had a privileged upbringing but I was 1 generation away from abject poverty on both my parents sides. Without the Air Force, I wouldn’t have had anywhere close to the opportunities I had because my dad took advantage of the programs to earn a commission, become a pilot, retire as an O-5, and go fly for the airlines. His dad dropped out in middle school and worked the line in a meat packing plant until he died at 60. If he and his brothers don’t join the AF, they’re more lower class working stiffs (nothing at all wrong with that) with much less opportunities. 
 

I always encourage military service of someone doesn’t know what to do for the benefits, reliable pay, and skills you can transfer. Join as a personnelist, do a 4 year tour, then go to college with some money in your pocket. Don’t join the infantry if that’s not your style. 

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Yeah, blue collar workers - aka the world’s most common jobs - are even more brutal. A high school friend’s dad retired from the factory line after 40 years of literally the same job (wrapping a wire around a wire) and died of a heart attack 2 weeks later. An anecdote for sure, but...holy shit I’ve got a pretty good life. Will I die if we get into a no-shitter with China? Maybe, but everyone will be fucked in that case anyway.

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On 1/23/2021 at 3:21 PM, FLEA said:

I mean, I would NEVER encourage my children to voluntarily join the military anymore. When they are old enough, I will actively discourage them from that decision. The sacrifices simply aren't worth it in the end. 

Specifically AD or the guard as well?

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1 hour ago, LimaLowdown said:

Specifically AD or the guard as well?

I would consider part time guard. But AD, definitely not. I've seen enough now to recognize the military in NO WAY has you or your family's welfare, anywhere near their list of top priorities. They will absolutely not hesitate to fuck you or your family in 80 different directions to make the mission happen. Thankfully I've been able to shield mine from that. But I have seen some people who's lives were absolutely crushed over some priorities that were not even close to the threshold of what I could consider operational necessity. All legal and backed by a jag. 

BTW: Spent 2 years corporate as an intern prior to entering the military. It wasn't nearly that bad. 

Edited by FLEA
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With the DoD shit canning the High-3 retirement system, there's literally no reason to do more than your initial commitment for the G.I. Bill, security clearance, VA stuff, etc. I got better 401K matching with my part-time job at Apple than military personnel do.

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With the DoD shit canning the High-3 retirement system, there's literally no reason to do more than your initial commitment for the G.I. Bill, security clearance, VA stuff, etc. I got better 401K matching with my part-time job at Apple than military personnel do.


Does that 401k matching also include a defined benefit and retirement healthcare in the retirement benefits package? It's about the whole retirement package, not just one aspect. There are great retirement plans out there in the civilian world (UPS seems to have a great one with both 401k contributions and pension)

GI bill transfer to a kid is also valuable; essentially puts one kid fully through college with very little to no debt without the need for scholarships or grants. Though I suppose if you have a kid before you have 6 years in service, you'll have the transfer commitment complete when your UPT commitment expires. If you have your first kid later in life, well, you can't transfer the benefit without incurring some extra commitment of you want the transfer benefit.

Sure, BRS sucks compared to high-3 IF you make it to 20 and retire. BRS is fine if you're a going enlisted person only doing one enlistment compared to the old system. If you're somewhere between, then you at least get a small retirement benefit (I'd bet smaller than most big businesses will match) to keep the pension as a carrot for retention.
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BRS pays out at 2% per year for retirement vice 2.5% of the traditional system so like was mentioned above, it’s 40% vs 50% at the high 3 at 20 years.

Edited by Danger41
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2 hours ago, Danger41 said:

BRS pays out at 2% per year for retirement vice 2.5% of the traditional system so like was mentioned above, it’s 40% vs 50% at the high 3 at 20 years.

As mentioned above, you’re not taking into account TSP matching which the legacy program doesn’t provide. 

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As mentioned above, you’re not taking into account TSP matching which the legacy program doesn’t provide. 
My rough math when I was making the choice between the 2 showed BRS ahead for the first 7 years of retirement, then falling behind the legacy system for the rest of time, based on 5% annual return from the market (very conservative return).

The big takeaway was I also need outside investments, since just legacy high 3 or BRS (at the minimum matching) just provides a comfortable retirement, but isn't going to buy toys and travel.

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2 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

My rough math when I was making the choice between the 2 showed BRS ahead for the first 7 years of retirement, then falling behind the legacy system for the rest of time, based on 5% annual return from the market (very conservative return).

The big takeaway was I also need outside investments, since just legacy high 3 or BRS (at the minimum matching) just provides a comfortable retirement, but isn't going to buy toys and travel.
 

This^ for people making that choice at 10 or 11 years into their career at the time, the matching would have had to have been much higher than 4% to make a difference. 

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2 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

This^ for people making that choice at 10 or 11 years into their career at the time, the matching would have had to have been much higher than 4% to make a difference. 

Also the problem that you don't even get matching until you've been on the BRS for 2 years. Meaning at 10 years of service, you would have only got matching for 8 years before getting out. 

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1 hour ago, Homestar said:

As mentioned above, you’re not taking into account TSP matching which the legacy program doesn’t provide. 

And the career bonus of 2.5 x annual pay at year 12.

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4 hours ago, Negatory said:

Hopefully this isn't pedantic, but it's 2.5 x monthly base pay, not annual. Amounts to a ballpark 20k.

Shit, you're right.  That's way less of a factor than I thought. I was looking at the fact sheet and assumed the "2.5 x AC" was "annual compensation ".

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  • 6 months later...

i'm an 11R and i'd like to go to -46s at McGuire for family reasons (i'd take a -10 or -17 there too honestly) but the special hire for the jet is over as far as i know. so it'll have to be a mechanical transfer.

been trying to figure out what i need to try and make this happen but basically it seems like:

-loosing SQ/CC would have to concur/push me

-gaining SQ/CC would have to concur would help to pull me in

-46 functional would have to be willing to take me

-most critically, the 11R functional would have to let me go.

we're WILDLY overmanned at the moment and with most of our airplanes either being retired, needing to be, or being half ass recapped it's not a huge ask (i don't think) to leave

thoughts?

 

**also**

 

i'd really like to apply to the U-2 next assignment so i'd even be willing to keep the core 11R AFSC, think that would be an inducement?

Edited by 12xu2a3x3
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1 hour ago, 12xu2a3x3 said:

i'm an 11R and i'd like to go to -46s at McGuire for family reasons (i'd take a -10 or -17 there too honestly) but the special hire for the jet is over as far as i know. so it'll have to be a mechanical transfer.

been trying to figure out what i need to try and make this happen but basically it seems like:

-loosing SQ/CC would have to concur/push me

-gaining SQ/CC would have to concur would help to pull me in

-46 functional would have to be willing to take me

-most critically, the 11R functional would have to let me go.

we're WILDLY overmanned at the moment and with most of our airplanes either being retired, needing to be, or being half ass recapped it's not a huge ask (i don't think) to leave

thoughts?

 

**also**

 

i'd really like to apply to the U-2 next assignment so i'd even be willing to keep the core 11R AFSC, think that would be an inducement?

You're fucked. 

As much as it doesnt make any sense, I had a deep talk with the 11R functional about it last year. Despite the retraction of the bonus and being 130% manned, as he put it, "competing priorities at different levels of staff." In other words, at HAF they saw overmanned and killed the bonus. But at AFPC they see that the manning is all copilots and ACs and IPs are dangerously low to a point of the mission being jeapordized. So from the AFPC perspective they need to retain retain retain. They need to retain ACs to accomplish the mission, they need to retain instructors to continue to make ACs, and they need to retain copilots because they need to keep them long enough to become ACs. 

I don't have great advice to you. About the only non 11R assignment they'll allow you to take is UPT. 

 

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If you’re all about going to McGuire for family reasons then I wouldn’t be mentioning the U-2 at Beale.  Stick with what you really want (especially for family reasons?), and then if that doesn’t work out then apply for Beale.

Or just apply for the U-2 as soon as you can and if it doesn’t work then ask for McGuire.  But wanting both tells me that the family desire isn’t really a top priority.  

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1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

If you’re all about going to McGuire for family reasons then I wouldn’t be mentioning the U-2 at Beale.  Stick with what you really want (especially for family reasons?), and then if that doesn’t work out then apply for Beale.

Or just apply for the U-2 as soon as you can and if it doesn’t work then ask for McGuire.  But wanting both tells me that the family desire isn’t really a top priority.  

sorry i should be more clear, my assignment after this coming one is when i would like to apply for the U-2, not my current one. i'm not close enough to being ready for any number of reasons. i have sick parents and inlaws that i would like to be near now to help.

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1 hour ago, FLEA said:

 

As much as it doesnt make any sense, I had a deep talk with the 11R functional about it last year. Despite the retraction of the bonus and being 130% manned, as he put it, "competing priorities at different levels of staff." In other words, at HAF they saw overmanned and killed the bonus. But at AFPC they see that the manning is all copilots and ACs and IPs are dangerously low to a point of the mission being jeapordized. So from the AFPC perspective they need to retain retain retain. They need to retain ACs to accomplish the mission, they need to retain instructors to continue to make ACs, and they need to retain copilots because they need to keep them long enough to become ACs. 

 

brutal and insane, we're 193% manned on Cos with a jet that basically doesn't work; something has to give and they need a better plan then venting people to del rio.

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1 hour ago, 12xu2a3x3 said:

brutal and insane, we're 193% manned on Cos with a jet that basically doesn't work; something has to give and they need a better plan then venting people to del rio.

If you want to fly U-2s, go be a T-6 IP.  I know a couple 11Rs who got accepted to the U-2 after a T-6.

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46 driver here.

I have yet to see a single person get released from the KC-46 to go to anything else. Not even a white jet. If you come here, you're probably here for life. It's not a bad place to be (I like it a hell of a lot more than where I came from) but I doubt you'd be able to get a functional release to go to the U-2 down the line. Just about everyone I know at that's at their 10 year commitment is punching so manning is already going to be a tough sell. The 46 is an amazing jet to fly, but be advised a lot of your leadership is the AMC "shiny penny" type of dude, so YMMV depending on what you want to do with your career. 

If you're really interested in the 46, give the functional a call. He's easy to work with to get in, and they *are* taking regular mechanical crossflows AFAIK since manning isn't the best. 

I'm also interested in the U-2/B-2, but what you want and the Air Force wants are often two different things - and Big Blue always wins. 

There's also other jobs at McGuire that take flyers. I doubt you could go KC-10s since they're on their way out, but C-17s are possible, and you could make a case for the CRG.

Edited by LoveDumpster
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