Russian Ukraine shenanigans

[Wendell]

9 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Did he want to serve fight—yes or not?  If not, then most definitely. 
 

I take it none of you commenting have read the Reason article I linked…

I’ve browsed it but I don’t give two shits about their argument…conscription is not slavery.  Both are involuntary but different.  Can we get back to dead Russians please..I’ll start

Edited February 28, 2022 by Wendell

[Lord Ratner]

19 minutes ago, uhhello said:

At this point, I'd be more worried for the Russian citizens when the birds cook in the silos.  

Yep. Hard to imagine this incredible level of incompetence on display hasn't found its way into Russia's nuclear Enterprise.

[Lord Ratner]

32 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Korematsu vs United States

I guess the imprisonment of Japanese Americans was cool too…you know, because of the Supreme Court.

You can be for freedom and liberty or you can be for conscription—but you can’t be for both.

Could you provide an example of societies that promote freedom and liberty, but did so without conscription?

 

Honestly, this is starting to sound like a libertarian children's story rather than a realistic assessment on human nature and societal construction.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Lord Ratner

[McJay Pilot]

I mean… not to COMPLETELY derail this thread, but conscripts get paid. Just sayin’.

Anyway, here’s Wonderwall…

🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦

[Guest nsplayr]

15 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Honestly, this is starting to sound like a libertarian children's story rather than a realistic assessment on human nature societal construction.

^^this

A big reason why the Libertarian Party will never succeed in the US is because too many libertarians who otherwise have some valid points are then also weirdo maximalists who will tell WWII veterans who were drafted that they were slaves 🤷‍♂️ 😶

To tie back into Ukraine (and this is shamelessly stolen from reddit)

Quote

 

"Putin, Biden and Zelensky are all in a hot air balloon and it’s starting to lose altitude. They need to lose some weight to stop from crashing.

Putin throws out a bottle of vodka and says, “Don’t worry I’ve got too much of that in my country anyway.”

Biden throws out an AR-15 and says, “Don’t worry I’ve got too much of that in my country anyway.”

Zelensky throws out Putin and says, “Don’t worry I’ve got too much of that in my country anyway,” and looks at Biden smugly as they crash anyways due to the massive weight of Zelensky's balls."

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by nsplayr

[Lord Ratner]

7 minutes ago, McJay Pilot said:

I mean… not to COMPLETELY derail this thread, but conscripts get paid. Just sayin’.

Anyway, here’s Wonderwall…

🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦

Yeah, almost like conscript and slave are not the same thing. 

[DirkDiggler]

37 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Did he want to serve or fight—yes or no?  If not, then most definitely.  As for “preserving a way of life and a set of ideals”…according to whom?  What if your way of life/ideals is to not be forced to fight in a war? 
 

I take it none of you commenting have read the Reason article I linked…

Fair.  I'll stop with the thread derail.

  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this then.  I read your posted article; I don't think that the author adequately addressed conscription in the time of a emergency/war that actually threatens the survival of the state/Constitution of the United States.  The article in question was mainly targeted at mandatory national service and/or the draft in a peacetime environment (he argues that the legal logic behind mandatory national service violates the 13th amendment, but doesn't provide further rationale with regards to an example like WWII or the destruction of the US).  Additionally, the logic of this article is a specific opinion on the US constitution, not another country and not a world war. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by DirkDiggler
Grammar

[Bigred]

4 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Those are fair points.  Some of the stuff you mentioned above are outside my ability to notice (MC pilot who thinks tanks are cool), but the lack of a herringbone formation on a stalled Russian armored column did catch my eye.  Also, several videos of Ukrainian infantry openly blasting Russian tanks operating without infantry support seemed real wrong, even to an AF guy.

  Either way, I’ve been very satisfied at the number of burning Russian tracks I’ve woken up to every morning.

I’ve got a pretty good grasp of ground combat (not nearly as good as Lawman). This isn’t tank on tank warfare so what has really surprised me are the videos of zero infantry support for the armor. Combined arms utilization during movement through and via a somewhat limited selection of LOCs is what would get the tanks to the front line. The Ukrainians are having a field day picking off the heavy equipment. 

[Bigred]

Reports of former US SOF on the ground in the Ukraine. No way of verifying if true but the pictures I saw, they ‘looked’ the part in terms of gear and weaponry and are reported to have inflicted serious damage to Russian formations. Of course, it could be the Ukrainians that were trained/equipped by US SOF.

It does beg the question, what happens if a US dude gets rolled up by the Russians?

[FLEA]

21 minutes ago, Bigred said:

Reports of former US SOF on the ground in the Ukraine. No way of verifying if true but the pictures I saw, they ‘looked’ the part in terms of gear and weaponry and are reported to have inflicted serious damage to Russian formations. Of course, it could be the Ukrainians that were trained/equipped by US SOF.

It does beg the question, what happens if a US dude gets rolled up by the Russians?

There are former US SOF dudes who were part of TF Pineapple who are in the Ukraine now doing the exact same thing (evacuating Americans, LPRs, and people who otherwise warrant evacuation). Not evacuating many Ukrainians I think though. 

[Bigred]

42 minutes ago, FLEA said:

There are former US SOF dudes who were part of TF Pineapple who are in the Ukraine now doing the exact same thing (evacuating Americans, LPRs, and people who otherwise warrant evacuation). Not evacuating many Ukrainians I think though. 

Good point and I guess it’s not surprising when I think about it. If any foreign forces are gonna fight in Ukraine those are probably the best ones to do it.

[ClearedHot]

Russia using Cluster Munitions (not sure if air dropped or artillery) in an urban area.

They splashed another Helo (Mi-35/24).

 

Ukrainians captured a SAM system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HeloDude]

8 hours ago, nsplayr said:

^^this

A big reason why the Libertarian Party will never succeed in the US is because too many libertarians who otherwise have some valid points are then also weirdo maximalists who will tell WWII veterans who were drafted that they were slaves 🤷‍♂️ 😶

To tie back into Ukraine (and this is shamelessly stolen from reddit)

Well…I mean I didn’t say that requiring an ID to vote is Jim Crow 2.0 like the Dems, or that our entire country is inherently racist, but sure, the libertarians are the weirdos.

I’ll never apologize for being for individual liberty, and conscription is anything but that.  Remove the emotion, and ask yourself why you think it’s ok when the state forces you do something when you’re just minding your own business and not hurting anyone vs when an individual forces you to do something?

Edited February 28, 2022 by HeloDude

[fire4effect]

Found some very old Soviet Order of Battle references. No idea how accurate it is in the current environment but doctrinally an MRD (Motorized Rifle Division) has ~271 Tanks (13K troops total) and a TD (Tank Division) has ~328 (11K troops total).

[Lord Ratner]

56 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Remove the emotion, and ask yourself why you think it’s ok when the state forces you do something when you’re just minding your own business and not hurting anyone vs when an individual forces you to do something?

Because society simply doesn't work without it. Not yet at least.

 

Libertarianism is a fantastic philosophy if you already live in a society that values individual liberty and freedom. There aren't a ton of those societies today, and historically the number of them is vanishingly small.

 

They have not, and do not create themselves using the very values they end up instilling. This is fairly obvious, as the United States has relied on conscription while being the undisputed champion of individualism and freedom.

 

Libertarians fall into the same trap that progressive elites fall into. There are a lot of people who are not, under any circumstances, going to face real risk in support of libertarian values. They aren't like you. You joined the military. But those very values that make their lives unfathomably better cannot survive defenseless, and they're simply aren't enough people like you willing to voluntarily defend them.

 

So would the world be better off without free societies at all? Or is this just another instance where black and white thinking fails upon first contact with reality?

 

And if your answer is still "it's not worth defending if people won't defend it voluntarily" then I see no point in considering your philosophy at all, as the alternative to not defending them is a barbarism that is obviously worse than the "slavery" of conscription.

[HeloDude]

25 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

And if your answer is still "it's not worth defending if people won't defend it voluntarily" then I see no point in considering your philosophy at all, as the alternative to not defending them is a barbarism that is obviously worse than the "slavery" of conscription.

That’s most definitely still my answer.  You can’t stand for the values of individual liberty when you’re literally using the opposite to keep those values.

Birth rates—if they were to be on a serious decline, they can eventually have a very negative impact to society, right?  That negative impact could very well in turn negatively impact the US’s ability to promote liberty and freedom across the world.  So should the government force women to have children in order to set the birth rate to what the government needs/desires?  You can laugh all you want, but if you’re willing to force an innocent adult male to stand in front of gun fire for what the state says is the security of the country (ummm Vietnam…ugh), then you have to ask yourself what else the state can force upon innocent citizens under the same concept of “security of the country”.

This is a tough conversation to have because the majority of the country doesn’t want to believe that the power of the state to enforce X program to protect the country (which they support)…that this same power could be used to go against something they disagree with under the same desire for security.

Just because this below was ordered by the state for the security of its nation, doesn’t change what it really was…

https://apnews.com/article/tokyo-ap-top-news-cabinets-world-war-ii-japan-3dc00af0e6c618791eb4683d6807de64

[Wendell]

Meanwhile the Russian government hasn’t acknowledged any deaths.

https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-russia-pows-prisoners-identification-dead/31726619.html

Edited February 28, 2022 by Wendell

[ClearedHot]

29 minutes ago, Wendell said:

Meanwhile the Russian government hasn’t acknowledged any deaths.

https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-russia-pows-prisoners-identification-dead/31726619.html

The Turkish drones Ukraine bought are inflicting a LOT of losses and casualties on the Russians.

 

 

[fire4effect]

11 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

The Turkish drones Ukraine bought are inflicting a LOT of losses and casualties on the Russians.

   Found the "Ghost of Ukraine?" Their version of a Hellfire?

[waveshaper]

20 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

The Turkish drones Ukraine bought are inflicting a LOT of losses and casualties on the Russians.

Some info on this Turkish drone + primary ordnance it carries:

- 'MAM-L missile: The MAM-L is offered with high explosive fragmentation, thermobaric, and tandem HEAT warheads, probably with the anticipation that it might be used against a wider variety of targets. This is in line with other micro drone munitions, which make up for the small size of the warhead by offering specialized variants that are optimized for specific target types, as opposed to larger warheads which can be decent at both fragmentation and HEAT effect if the warhead is designed with a fragmentation rings.' Etc,etc.

Is Turkey's Military a Drone Superpower? | The National Interest

- Baykar Bayraktar TB2 Drone: 

Baykar Bayraktar TB2 - Wikipedia

[ClearedHot]

 

 

[arg]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Ukrainians captured a SAM system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pulled by a tractor, awesome.

[uhhello]

8 minutes ago, arg said:

Pulled by a tractor, awesome.

Could just as easy be a Ukrainian system pulled by a tractor.  Vis ID has got to be a bitch.  I can't imagine the radar warning gear and how it works for either side.  

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

You can’t stand for the values of individual liberty when you’re literally using the opposite to keep those values.

Incorrect. Many, many people have and do. You simply disagree with the argument.

 

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

That negative impact could very well in turn negatively impact the US’s ability to promote liberty and freedom across the world.  So should the government force women to have children in order to set the birth rate to what the government needs/desires?

While absurdism is very useful in determining the realistic bounds of an argument, it's still absurdism.  So the line is between your absurd hypothetical and the reality of conscription. You are conveniently leaving out a core component of individual freedom, which is the ability to opt out. Leave, go somewhere that doesn't have conscription and respects individual freedom to the maximalist level you are suggesting. You may find it difficult to locate such a society, because such a society most likely exists only in hypothetical conversations. Just as my personal freedom to live on the moon is limited by the physiological realities of a lunar atmosphere, your desire to live in a society that both honors individuality and personal choice while shunning conscription in times of existential threat is limited by the sociological realities of human nature.

 

What you want is simply impossible with the tools you have. Therefore it is absurd. Perhaps one day it will not be.

 

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

Just because this below was ordered by the state for the security of its nation, doesn’t change what it really was…

Retroactive takes on history always seem to compare what was done many years ago with what would be done today, or even worse, and a hypothetical society of peak enlightenment.

 

This is the same nonsense mindset that is used against the founding Fathers for participating in slavery, Churchill for his views of colonialism, or comedians for their sexist jokes in the 80s. 

 

What was the alternative in the 1930s and 40s, and what would have happened in conflicts before then? How many multicultural societies existed or had existed to the extent the United States had already diversified by then? What was the playbook for having a large population of citizens from a ethnically homogeneous country that had just declared absolute war and attacked your homeland?

 

It's incredibly conceited to use modern norms to judge the past, just as it's incredibly small-minded to use hypothetical best-case outcomes to compare to actual outcomes of previous campaigns. 

 

Slavery and genocide are wrong, but it takes a long time to overcome the brutality of nature and reach very unnatural philosophical conclusions. We are gradually working our way towards a set of ideals that are even today are still hypothetical. Just as Olympic runners get closer and closer to the 2-hour marathon, there is no reason to believe 2 hours is just a step on the way to 90 minutes.

 

Your Rand-ian belief in absolute freedom is a yet-unproven theory. We've done quite well getting closer to that goal, but many libertarians miss the irony in castigating socialists for seeking Communist Utopia while promoting an impossible utopia of their own. In your case, a land of absolute individual freedom that somehow survives the predations of the surrounding illiberal societies.

[herkbier]

Apologies for the dumb question..

Is this Ukrainian insurgency the first time a more developed country has engaged in guerrilla warfare? At least since WWII? I looked for a list of insurgencies and couldn’t easily find a comprehensive list. 
 

I ask because this seems to be the most unified defensive action I can recall and it’s obviously progressing much differently than even most of us would have predicted.