The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[HeloDude]

So the Congresswoman wants to end policing...yet she’s more than happy to support policies that has the police take away your AR-15s, by force if necessary.    
 

"Daunte Wright was met with aggression & violence. I am done with those who condone government funded murder," she said in a tweet.

"No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can’t be reformed."
 

https://news.yahoo.com/rashida-tlaib-calls-no-more-221355507.html

[busdriver]

2 hours ago, jazzdude said:

And now, right or wrong, anytime I see SF on the flightline my initial gut reaction is "F those guys."
 

A SrA acted like a SrA, and you felt embarassed/disrespected and wanted an apology?  Grow up.

[jazzdude]

A SrA acted like a SrA, and you felt embarassed/disrespected and wanted an apology?  Grow up.

Didn't feel embarrassed or disrespected, just frustrated that my early morning alert sequence for my sortie got screwed because someone with authority didn't know their job and didn't own their mistake, regardless of either their rank or mine. Their parting words were to get a line badge (again, base policy didn't require it for TDY students). Also turns out SF's line badge printer hadn't worked in several months anyways, so I wouldn't have been able to get one even if I wanted one (hence the base's flightline policy).

I'm sure any flyer would be pissed if a support agency caused a delay to a mission or sortie because that support agency did their job wrong. Especially if that support agency asserts they did nothing wrong.

At a conscious level I know they (flight line SF) are doing their job, and most are probably decent people doing their best. But I still have that initial thought every time I see them on the flight line of "F the police" because of a bad run-in with them.

Then again, I've also been stopped when leaving base by SF and detained in my car for 15min or so because someone called in a suspicious person taking pictures on base. That time was much more cordial, though still equally stupid, as it was for an SF exercise, and the description of both the car and suspicious person weren't even close to my car or me. But they at least acknowledged their mistake before sending me on my way. They also treated me like a person throughout the interaction, and I don't have the same gut reaction to gate guards like I do for their flightline counterparts.

[Prozac]

4 hours ago, Kiloalpha said:

Two things are true here.

 

This. Everybody feels like they have to pick a side. There is no “right” side here. This is different from the Chauvin situation in that this was a split second fuckup, not nine minutes or whatever of kneeling on somebody’s neck. Should she have known the difference between a Glock and a taser? Absolutely. But she obviously intended to use non lethal force to subdue the subject. Not an excuse, but I do believe intent matters here. As far as the subject goes, in what world does running from the police ever work out? Best case is you get away, but the police know who you are and you wind up with additional warrants. Worse case? Well that’s exactly what happened here.  Even if the police interaction is obviously unfair and racist, running is not an option that will help you. Bottom line is both parties were in the wrong here. I’m a big proponent of police reform and consistently argue that racial bias does, in fact, exist in policing in the United States today. Let’s not dilute that cause by calling incidents like this one anything other than what they are: A tragic accident that was entirely preventable by both parties. 

[SocialD]

Damn Jazz, you did better than I would have.  I'd have called the OG/CC or WG/CC on their personal cell phone and had the SrA explain his fuckup to them.  I wouldn't have wanted an apology from him, as after that phone call it would have been a one way conversation about knowing your job before acting like and idiot (in the face of your partner giving you the correct info).  If I had missed my sortie, I'd have walked over to the SFS/CC and had a chat as well.

 

To the topic of the recent shooting, sure she fucked up, but dude would be alive if he hadn't resisted.  Let's see, warrant for attempted robbery and carrying a weapon without a permit.  Pulled over then begins a struggle with the cops for no apparent reason.  She may very well have saved another life had he gotten away and led them on a high speed chase, which it appears he'd have done...ya, not feeling bad for him. 

[17D_guy]

6 hours ago, brabus said:

Unfortunately this smells like lacking training combined with a stressful environment, with likely an increased perception of threat to herself or others (whether accurate or not). She fucked up and her resignation (firing if she hadn’t) followed by likely at least civil suit is understandable. But that said, no I’m not going to demonize her as a person because 

1. I wasn’t there and don’t know the situation first hand

2. I can’t count how many times highly trained individuals in the military employed the wrong weapon, employed on the wrong target, got confused where the bad guys and the friendlies were, etc. Shit happens in chaotic, stressful situations...training and reps is key to minimize risk of fuck ups. My perception is police at large do not get the amount of reps they should have given the situations they are likely to find themselves in.

3. Huge CF on the victim’s part. He’s not the RC, but he’d also be alive right now had he not done some things that I hope all of us would have been smart enough to avoid. 

Agree very strongly with a lot of this. Defund the police is stupid, they need more training more often and more people.  There are cultural issues within the profession that I think are continuing to cause problems with getting the police somewhere the citizens want them to be.  There is a very strong appearance of no accountability, and we all know what appearances mean. 

I have a particular hard time seeing the value that police unions are bringing to solve this problem.

I am extremely empathetic to the young man's family and their pain.  Resisting shouldn't be a death sentence.

I watched that video and my heart sank and aches for the female officer.  Yes, what she did was wrong, but it wasn't what she intended and you can hear it in her voice immediately that she knew bad days were coming.  I'm also empathetic to what she's going through for reacting poorly in a stressful situation.  I can't imagine how she feels.

 

Everyone watched the video with the Army Lt yet?  That shit was infuriating.

Edited April 14, 2021 by 17D_guy

[busdriver]

8 hours ago, jazzdude said:

Stuff

My point is a SrA base cop acted like a SrA base cop.  They didn't know the rules?  I'm shocked.  

SocialD's inclination to talk to the SFS/CC was the correct one, regardless of missing the sortie.  

[jazzdude]

My point is a SrA base cop acted like a SrA base cop.  They didn't know the rules?  I'm shocked.  
SocialD's inclination to talk to the SFS/CC was the correct one, regardless of missing the sortie.  

And my point is that screw ups by police (doesn't matter if they're a SrA or a MSgt SF, or a new cop or someone who has been in the police force for 20 years), whether accidental or intentional, damages the relationship with the public, and can create distrust of the police in individuals. That distrust takes time to repair, and takes positive action from the police (or authorities in general) to rebuild that trust.

The fact that you're not shocked that an SrA cop who didn't know one of the basic parts of their job, did not take input from their partner that they might be wrong, and was unwilling to call for advice to clarify the policy is disappointing. I don't expect a SrA to be an expert, but I do expect them to know their basic job and to ask for help if they don't know the answer. (I mean, I have the same expectation from the SrA ATC controller in tower/approach, so why should SF be held to a lower standard...)

Talking to the SFS/CC would've done zip. OG had a call with the MSG (that got my situation resolved), and I'm sure crap rolled downhill. Nothing really (good) would come from random TDY pilot trying to talk to the SFS/CC that hasn't already come down from the MSG, no matter how good it'd feel to say WTF or vent in the moment. Strongly considered it, but ultimately decided it wasn't worth doing so in this case.

[BashiChuni]

i think cops need to stop trying to use small infractions as excuses to escalate.

doesn't seem to be worth it for obvious strategic purposes. if the guy has a warrant out fine, go get him, but all these ticky tack stops seem to escalate into something major.

and if he gets in the car and drives off fine...let him...you know where he lives why not pick a better moment to grab him? shooting him "accidentally" is just not acceptable (obviously), and i think the charge was appropriate for the officer.

new era of policing is here and it seems that departments are slow to recognize this fundamental shift. gotta pick your bat......fuck....

 

but for real they need to start looking at the strategic consequences of these stops and might want to start de-escalating some of them more often.

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, jazzdude said:

 damages the relationship with the public, and can create distrust of the police in individuals. 

 I have the same expectation from the SrA ATC controller in tower/approach, so why should SF be held to a lower standard.

OG had a call with the MSG (that got my situation resolved), and I'm sure crap rolled downhill.

You aren't the public WRT a base cop.  It's different, and I think you know that.  Practically, the worst thing they're gonna do is waste your time and tell dad on you.

That SrA cop isn't any different than a defensive student that gets backed into a corner and refuses to budge.  Know the threat, and react accordingly.

If the OG got involved, then all you can do is assume it's taken care of until proven otherwise.  I took re-qual to mean you are coming off a staff gig and are an O4/O5.

[jazzdude]

You aren't the public WRT a base cop.  It's different, and I think you know that.  Practically, the worst thing they're gonna do is waste your time and tell dad on you.
That SrA cop isn't any different than a defensive student that gets backed into a corner and refuses to budge.  Know the threat, and react accordingly.
If the OG got involved, then all you can do is assume it's taken care of until proven otherwise.  I took re-qual to mean you are coming off a staff gig and are an O4/O5.

It's a close parallel. Better comparison here would be a security guard. But the situation is very close to a cop accusing a civilian of trespassing even though the civilian has a right to be at a particular location (like private property the civilian owns).

SF can do a lot more than waste your time, especially if they're jumpy and you get frustrated and show it. They also carry tasers and are armed. Though there are some military unique characteristics that help tamp escalation.

I'd bet SF get more training than the average civilian police officer, and punishments can be harsher than the civilian world (through the addition of UCMJ punishments, and if they screw up bad they could be dishonorably discharged, which will follow them for the rest of their life, unlike getting fired from a civilian job). This is something that helps reduce bad interactions between SF and the rest of the military/public as compared to civilian police.

I'd bet military members are more compliant with authority in general compared to the general public because of our training and culture. And as an officer, I know that if I'm in the right, all I have to do is wait and trust that the chain of command will fix the issue. So all I have to do is get back to my circle and wait it out. This helps reduce the chance of escalation, so long as I keep my cool.

A civilian generally doesn't have someone with authority/power (like a military commander) to put pressure on law enforcement to correct problems unless they have the time and money to litigate, their story makes the news and creates public outcry, or they are politically connected with government leaders. If you're poor, none of those options are likely. And bad cops know this as well, which can lead them to abuse their power, especially if they're department is stretched thin and supervisory controls are lacking.

Difference from a defensive student backed into a corner is that the defensive student has no authority; but the cop does (regardless of rank based on their positional authority). The power balance is different with a student: you as the instructor have authority over the student based on your position, so if the student gets mouthy you can just tell them to shut up and color (though probably not the best instructional technique, especially if your student outranks you or is a commander). Try doing that to an SF cop and it probably won't end well for you, even if the cop is wrong.

Contrast that with an over zealous chief, who has zero authority over officers, and basically just waste a bit of your time. They can't detain you, and aren't armed, so the worst that can come out of that interaction is them yelling at you. The most they can do is try to convince someone with authority to do something with you, which may or may not happen.

Was a newly pinned on major (just pinned on the month this happened) going from UPT IP back to the C-17. Altus SF sucks (seem to be over zealous because of how boring it is out there, and not just on the flightline but traffic enforcement as well), and I know I'm not the only person who thinks that.

[busdriver]

3 hours ago, jazzdude said:

.....Stuff that supports my argument that your interaction with SF is very different than anyone's interaction with an offbase cop............

Difference from a defensive student backed into a corner is that the defensive student has no authority ........ (though probably not the best instructional technique, especially if your student outranks you or is a commander). ...........

Was a newly pinned on major 

Copy, so a base cop is different than off base.  For what it's worth I have a substantial libertarian type bias against police, so I get your impulse.  

It's the same mindset, and it's human nature.  In one case you have an additional "STF" option, the other you don't.  In both cases, STF is rarely the first choice.  So know the threat and react accordingly.

Talking to the CC doesn't mean you have to be a dickhead (it almost never works anyway), and is easier if you're the same rank.  But, an FGO to FGO talk about something you noticed during an interaction with one of said commander's troops doesn't have to be a bad thing.  If you came to me to tell me one of my guys was being a little shit, I'd listen and file it away to see what may need to be done to mentor said troop (in this case that it's ok to be wrong if you fix it, but it's not ok to be an asshole).  If you came into my office ranting and demanding something, I'd tell you to fuck off and get out.

Something I learned dealing with the Army (granted, as a LtCol and group deputy): don't argue with the enlisted troops, don't plead your case to a CGO.  As a LtCol, I talk to CCs/O5s and above.  If it's worth my time, it's worth theirs. 

[busdriver]

3 hours ago, jazzdude said:

.....Stuff that supports my argument that your interaction with SF is very different than anyone's interaction with an offbase cop............

Difference from a defensive student backed into a corner is that the defensive student has no authority ........ (though probably not the best instructional technique, especially if your student outranks you or is a commander). ...........

Was a newly pinned on major 

Copy, so a base cop is different than off base.  For what it's worth I have a substantial libertarian type bias against police, so I get your impulse.  

It's the same mindset, and it's human nature.  In one case you have an additional "STF" option, the other you don't.  In both cases, STF is rarely the first choice.  So know the threat and react accordingly.

Talking to the CC doesn't mean you have to be a dickhead (it almost never works anyway), and is easier if you're the same rank.  But, an FGO to FGO talk about something you noticed during an interaction with one of said commander's troops doesn't have to be a bad thing.  If you came to me to tell me one of my guys was being a little shit, I'd listen and file it away to see what may need to be done to mentor said troop (in this case that it's ok to be wrong if you fix it, but it's not ok to be an asshole).  If you came into my office ranting and demanding something, I'd tell you to fuck off and get out.

Something I learned dealing with the Army (granted, as a LtCol and group deputy): don't argue with the enlisted troops, don't plead your case to a CGO.  As a LtCol, I talk to CCs/O5s and above.  If it's worth my time, it's worth theirs. 

[Pooter]

Unfortunately the common denominator here is the brutal truth that both civilian cops and SF troops average to slightly below average people with average to slightly below average training. This is not to take away from their selflessness and dedication but let's be honest here and acknowledge this isn't the cream of the crop we're dealing with. If you have the aptitude to be a surgeon or a pilot or a navy seal you probably aren't going to be a cop. 

These people are not smooth operators who make perfect split second decisions in times of stress. This is why you should do everything in your power to never give the cops a reason to interact with you and ruin your day.. or much worse.  I set my cruise control on base to 1mph below the speed limit and stop for excessively long a stop signs precisely for this reason.  Do not give these jabronis a reason to enter your life.

 

If you do get stopped, then you have to mind your p's and q's even more to keep the situation on the rails.  This understanding seems to be lost lately as everyone would rather start flipping out and filming with their phone instead of staying calm.  This fuels bad reactions on the part of the police, which then fuels a media narrative, when then fuels more bad behavior by suspects who are convinced they're going to be summarily shot for no reason.
 

This self licking ice cream cone is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

 

 

[FLEA]

17 minutes ago, Pooter said:

Unfortunately the common denominator here is the brutal truth that both civilian cops and SF troops average to slightly below average people with average to slightly below average training. This is not to take away from their selflessness and dedication but let's be honest here and acknowledge this isn't the cream of the crop we're dealing with. If you have the aptitude to be a surgeon or a pilot or a navy seal you probably aren't going to be a cop. 

These people are not smooth operators who make perfect split second decisions in times of stress. This is why you should do everything in your power to never give the cops a reason to interact with you and ruin your day.. or much worse.  I set my cruise control on base to 1mph below the speed limit and stop for excessively long a stop signs precisely for this reason.  Do not give these jabronis a reason to enter your life.

 

If you do get stopped, then you have to mind your p's and q's even more to keep the situation on the rails.  This understanding seems to be lost lately as everyone would rather start flipping out and filming with their phone instead of staying calm.  This fuels bad reactions on the part of the police, which then fuels a media narrative, when then fuels more bad behavior by suspects who are convinced they're going to be summarily shot for no reason.
 

This self licking ice cream cone is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

 

 

Jesus dude, biased much? How do you come to this assessment? Based off of a single anecdote of a single person having a run in on a flight line? 

I think they didn't become pilots, surgeons or Navy Seals because that's not really what they wanted to do. 

[jazzdude]

If you do get stopped, then you have to mind your p's and q's even more to keep the situation on the rails.  This understanding seems to be lost lately as everyone would rather start flipping out and filming with their phone instead of staying calm.  This fuels bad reactions on the part of the police, which then fuels a media narrative, when then fuels more bad behavior by suspects who are convinced they're going to be summarily shot for no reason.
 
This self licking ice cream cone is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Well put, though I would add that the police need to do the same and not come across as threatening. The challenge is that both sides (police and public) to some extent are afraid of the other. Fear can make you do stupid things, and can put you in fight or flight.

Individuals may have bad experiences with police and do things to protect themselves, such as stopping in well lit public areas when pulled over, or recording the interaction. Both are reasonably reactions if you're wary of the police (or criminals impersonating the police), and shouldn't be seen as escalating actions (well, maybe not sticking a cell phone in the cop's face). Or they are just plain afraid of the police, whether it's for a good or bad reason.

On the other side, police do have be prepared to deal with potentially violent and armed criminals, and will do things to control the situation and protect themselves. Unfortunately, sometimes those self protective actions are perceived as aggressive and escalate the situation when it's not needed, and make what should've been an simple interaction into something much worse. And most people in general don't like being filmed doing their job by people looking for mistakes that can have career impacts or cause embarrassment.

This problem gets worse when different cultures collide, and normal mannerisms for one group are misinterpreted as threatening or aggressive by the other. (And yes, this is more than just race, look at the differences between west coast and east coast mannerisms, or how the military talks, etc)

There's not going to be an easy fix, since it requires trust to be rebuilt, both by the police and by the public/their community. That takes time, and generally is a local issue. And since the police are in that position of authority, I believe they are the ones that have to make the first steps in repairing the relationship with their communities and the public at large.

Then there's the question of if you have to comply with a police officer's demands. There are many situations where you don't have to comply with their demands, and have no legal reason to be compelled to. For example, a cop asking to search your vehicle during a routine traffic stop. It's your legal right to decline unless they get a warrant, but they can make your life very difficult if you decline and they don't want to drop the issue for whatever reason. Another example is the police asking to see your phone, or come into your house to ask questions.

[Pooter]

3 hours ago, FLEA said:

Jesus dude, biased much? How do you come to this assessment? Based off of a single anecdote of a single person having a run in on a flight line? 

I think they didn't become pilots, surgeons or Navy Seals because that's not really what they wanted to do. 

This has nothing to do with that SF story.
 

We are talking about police forces writ large. And unfortunately, patrol level law enforcement on average is a low to middle income career field with relatively few entry requirements.  Of course there are exceptions and there are absolute rockstars in any community.  I'm sure the same holds true for police/SF. 
 

But if we're going to talk about the qualifications of the hypothetical "average cop" we have to look to  measurable metrics like pay and hiring requirements.  Much in the same way, you can look at the average pay and qualifications of your average Walmart cashier and safely assume they aren't about to be hired by Spacex.  
 

None of this is meant to be a dig against police.  They're good people doing honest work.  It's meant to be a dig against what society expects police to be and why the defund movement is so stupid.  If we want police to be infallible, unflappable law enforcement robocops who can deescalate any situation perfectly, then why don't we start recruiting, training, and paying them like it?

 

[Prozac]

13 hours ago, Pooter said:

This has nothing to do with that SF story.
 

We are talking about police forces writ large. And unfortunately, patrol level law enforcement on average is a low to middle income career field with relatively few entry requirements.  Of course there are exceptions and there are absolute rockstars in any community.  I'm sure the same holds true for police/SF. 
 

But if we're going to talk about the qualifications of the hypothetical "average cop" we have to look to  measurable metrics like pay and hiring requirements.  Much in the same way, you can look at the average pay and qualifications of your average Walmart cashier and safely assume they aren't about to be hired by Spacex.  
 

None of this is meant to be a dig against police.  They're good people doing honest work.  It's meant to be a dig against what society expects police to be and why the defund movement is so stupid.  If we want police to be infallible, unflappable law enforcement robocops who can deescalate any situation perfectly, then why don't we start recruiting, training, and paying them like it?

 

You make some great points. People rightfully expect perfection out of officers who hold the lives of civilians in their hands yet will not support taxes and levies that would improve training, pay and/or expand response options to help deal appropriately with situations where force may not be the most appropriate option. I wholeheartedly agree that “defund the police” has got to be one of the dumbest slogans in recent memory. “Reform the police” is far more appropriate if you’re a thinking human being. 

[Pooter]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

You make some great points. People rightfully expect perfection out of officers who hold the lives of civilians in their hands yet will not support taxes and levies that would improve training, pay and/or expand response options to help deal appropriately with situations where force may not be the most appropriate option. I wholeheartedly agree that “defund the police” has got to be one of the dumbest slogans in recent memory. “Reform the police” is far more appropriate if you’re a thinking human being. 

Exactly.  What do you do to improve a school system that's under performing? Cut funding even more? Yeah makes perfect sense. 
 

The dumbest part is that the defund movement isn't even logically consistent with the rest of the Democrat fiscal policy stances. They'll be the first to suggest increased funding for literally anything else that they deem a problem.  Climate change? Throw money at it. Racial reparations? Throw money at it. The Biden administration is literally pulling off a time heist against our future economy to the tune of several trillion dollars to "fix" all sorts of perceived national problems. 
 

But when it comes to police funding, they're  instantly fiscal conservatives because something something white supremacy. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Pooter

[17D_guy]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

...yet will not support taxes and levies that would improve training, pay and/or expand response options to help deal appropriately with situations where force may not be the most appropriate option.

I can't support any of that until there's an accountability process that works to remove and bar the " bad lemons" as @Kiloalpha said.  If they want to work it at the same time, fine.  But this shit is unacceptable.

I would also add that communities need to get more involved with their police, it's not a one-way street.  The culture of "civilians vs. thin-blue-line" is not healthy.

[Lord Ratner]

On 4/14/2021 at 7:07 AM, pawnman said:

They won't be 160 IQ individuals...police departments have actually fought lawsuits so that they don't have to hire people who are "too smart".

Source? That sounds like an interesting case to read.

[Lord Ratner]

On 4/14/2021 at 10:52 AM, jazzdude said:

 and most are probably decent people doing their best. 
 

Probably? What military are you in? Your interactions with flightline SF are regularly negative to the point that you think most are only *probably* decent people?

 

Perspective takes effort. It's very easy use negative anecdotes to characterize entire systems in direct conflict with reality. We're seeing that with Americans' perception of policing now.

 

But if an educated officer will let one stupid interaction that only impacted a training sortie drive his perception to the "probably" standard, what hope does the rest of America have when the news is now completely saturated with carefully filtered anecdotal cases of police malfeasance?

Edited April 17, 2021 by Lord Ratner

[Lord Ratner]

23 hours ago, Pooter said:

Exactly.  What do you do to improve a school system that's under performing? Cut funding even more? Yeah makes perfect sense. 
 

The dumbest part is that the defund movement isn't even logically consistent with the rest of the Democrat fiscal policy stances. They'll be the first to suggest increased funding for literally anything else that they deem a problem.  Climate change? Throw money at it. Racial reparations? Throw money at it. The Biden administration is literally pulling off a time heist against our future economy to the tune of several trillion dollars to "fix" all sorts of perceived national problems. 
 

But when it comes to police funding, they're  instantly fiscal conservatives because something something white supremacy. 

You are mistaking the liberals with the marxists. The marxists are being quite consistent in their actions and advocacy, as well as in their tendency to hijack other political groups when they align on one or two issues. 

[jazzdude]

Probably? What military are you in? Your interactions with flightline SF are regularly negative to the point that you think most are only *probably* decent people?
 
Perspective takes effort. It's very easy use negative anecdotes to characterize entire systems in direct conflict with reality. We're seeing that with Americans' perception of policing now.
 
But if an educated officer will let one stupid interaction that only impacted a training sortie drive his perception to the "probably" standard, what hope does the rest of America have when the news is now completely saturated with carefully filtered anecdotal cases of police malfeasance?

Probably as in I give most people I don't know the benefit of the doubt that they are doing their best at their job.

Look at this forum and see how much people complain about any other career field. Finance, MPF, comm, etc. Hell, even GOs. Most are probably good people doing their best. I'd say a good chance/probability they are good people. But there are

But bad experiences tend to stick out, and disproportionately affect perceptions. Plus, conscious and unconscious thinking/reactions are affected differently, and it takes much more time and positive events to make a change in unconscious behavior. This makes fixing the policing problem (and poor perceptions) much more difficult, and on a longer timeline than people want to see the change in.

[lloyd christmas]

https://www.rt.com/usa/521381-maxine-waters-brooklyn-center-curfew/
 

Maxine Waters shows up in MN encouraging people to be more confrontational.  

Of course the message to people can’t be to not commit aggravated robbery, not to break the terms of your release by being in possession of a weapon or to not flee while the police are lawfully arresting you.  Nope.  Can’t say any of that.