COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

[Waingro]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

@Waingro Cutting off the nose to spite the face is all that is. This wasn’t a refusal to go to war and do their jobs. Leaders and problem solvers don’t blindly think in black and white, but that’s exactly what this line of thought is. “Leaders” who are incapable of critical thought  and just “read the teleprompter” are a bad thing.

I don't disagree, but expecting wing leadership to buck a SECDEF directive is some higher-level fantasy thinking. 

[Waingro]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

Let's take all of the assumptions in your first paragraph to be true, then that order wouldn't be a lawful order because it lacks military neccesity. All orders have to have military neccesity, regardless of the context. 

That's a pretty high bar to clear. What about off-limits locales in town? Double hearing protection required? Reflective belts? Flu vaccine? Buddy requirements downtown on a TDY? E-4s and below can't drive cars? We have to work on Sundays, my holy day of rest?

That's all really subjective. Ordering a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic doesn't break the noise threshold in terms of military necessity. This vaccine for this virus looks like a gross overreaction in hindsight. Sort of like the anthrax vaccine. Or smallpox for that matter. But here we are, and those who chose to disobey what's pretty plainly a lawful order, should get a handshake, a litho, and a DD-214.

[BashiChuni]

10 hours ago, Waingro said:

That's a pretty high bar to clear. What about off-limits locales in town? Double hearing protection required? Reflective belts? Flu vaccine? Buddy requirements downtown on a TDY? E-4s and below can't drive cars? We have to work on Sundays, my holy day of rest?

That's all really subjective. Ordering a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic doesn't break the noise threshold in terms of military necessity. This vaccine for this virus looks like a gross overreaction in hindsight. Sort of like the anthrax vaccine. Or smallpox for that matter. But here we are, and those who chose to disobey what's pretty plainly a lawful order, should get a handshake, a litho, and a DD-214.

what about CONTINUING to order a vax that is PROVEN to not be effective?

the military member is NOT protected by taking this vax. how about that?!

this is a pure MONEY GRAB by big pharma....a industry that only a few years ago was the target of the left, but MAGICALLY now is the medical jesus of all leftists and "critical thinkers"

[CaptainMorgan]

[mention=77334]Waingro[/mention] Cutting off the nose to spite the face is all that is. This wasn’t a refusal to go to war and do their jobs. Leaders and problem solvers don’t blindly think in black and white, but that’s exactly what this line of thought is. “Leaders” who are incapable of critical thought  and just “read the teleprompter” are a bad thing.

Being potentially not deployable to certain locations is an issue.


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[BashiChuni]

On 5/21/2022 at 12:44 PM, CaptainMorgan said:

Being potentially not deployable to certain locations is an issue.


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doesn't matter the vax has been proven to not work. the requirement should be dropped immediately. if other countries have a problem with that then maybe we shouldn't be "deployed" there in the first place

Edited July 6, 2022 by BashiChuni

[Waingro]

6 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

what about CONTINUING to order a vax that is PROVEN to not be effective?

the military member is NOT protected by taking this vax. how about that?!

this is a pure MONEY GRAB by big pharma....a industry that only a few years ago was the target of the left, but MAGICALLY now is the medical jesus of all leftists and "critical thinkers"

The strange punctuation and capitalization of random words gives your post somewhat of a National Enquirer feel. Good stuff. 

Anyway, the vaccine has not been proven to lack efficacy. I'm not going to bother asking you to cite a source, because I know you can't. But in the spirit of facts, here's my source.

 

3 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

doesn't matter the vax has been proven to not work. the requirement should be dropped immediately. if other countries have a problem with that then maybe we shouldn't be "deployed" to their in the first place

You might have a point, wanting the requirement to be dropped. But until they drop it, it's still an order, a lawful one at that. We don't get to cherry-pick which lawful orders we follow. Otherwise we could just call them suggestions. 

And in a strange turn of events, we also don't get to decide what countries we deploy to. I kept telling my last commander that we should deploy to Tahiti, but it fell on deaf ears and we ended up in Afghanistan. 

[Boomer6]

Anyone else at a base that is barring TDYs unless you’re fully vaccinated and boosted?

[Guardian]

Under Secretary of def put a memo out Oct 2021 that didn’t allow tdy’s or personal leave of any service member. Just had to stay in the local area between work and home

[BashiChuni]

4 hours ago, Waingro said:

The strange punctuation and capitalization of random words gives your post somewhat of a National Enquirer feel. Good stuff. 

Anyway, the vaccine has not been proven to lack efficacy. I'm not going to bother asking you to cite a source, because I know you can't. But in the spirit of facts, here's my source.

 

You might have a point, wanting the requirement to be dropped. But until they drop it, it's still an order, a lawful one at that. We don't get to cherry-pick which lawful orders we follow. Otherwise we could just call them suggestions. 

And in a strange turn of events, we also don't get to decide what countries we deploy to. I kept telling my last commander that we should deploy to Tahiti, but it fell on deaf ears and we ended up in Afghanistan. 

My source is every politician who has gotten COVID and then tweeted thanks for being vaxed I’m not sicker. 

[Lord Ratner]

4 hours ago, Waingro said:

The strange punctuation and capitalization of random words gives your post somewhat of a National Enquirer feel. Good stuff. 

Anyway, the vaccine has not been proven to lack efficacy. I'm not going to bother asking you to cite a source, because I know you can't. But in the spirit of facts, here's my source.

 

You might have a point, wanting the requirement to be dropped. But until they drop it, it's still an order, a lawful one at that. We don't get to cherry-pick which lawful orders we follow. Otherwise we could just call them suggestions. 

And in a strange turn of events, we also don't get to decide what countries we deploy to. I kept telling my last commander that we should deploy to Tahiti, but it fell on deaf ears and we ended up in Afghanistan. 

Hold up... Define efficacy. Because it was once postulated that the vaccine stopped hospitalizations, deaths, and transmission. In fact when everyone was high on the nearly release vaccine euphoria, 99% effective was often cited.

 

We now know the vaccine has very limited ability to reduce transmission. And the protection against Alpha and Delta have not carried over to omicron in the same way.

 

So yeah, it works, so long as you redefine "works" in a way that no longer has much to do with military necessity.

[Boomer6]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Under Secretary of def put a memo out Oct 2021 that didn’t allow tdy’s or personal leave of any service member. Just had to stay in the local area between work and home

Copy. Obviously, both of those continue to occur. I’m asking if anyone knows of bases that have put increased restrictions, other than the DoD mandates that everyone be fully vaccinated, on members based on their booster status.

[Waingro]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Hold up... Define efficacy. Because it was once postulated that the vaccine stopped hospitalizations, deaths, and transmission. In fact when everyone was high on the nearly release vaccine euphoria, 99% effective was often cited.

 

We now know the vaccine has very limited ability to reduce transmission. And the protection against Alpha and Delta have not carried over to omicron in the same way.

 

So yeah, it works, so long as you redefine "works" in a way that no longer has much to do with military necessity.

Here's the source I cited above showing vaccine efficacy. You can infer from that what you will. I never said I was in favor of vaccine mandates, only that they're pretty plainly lawful orders.

The only argument that I'm putting forth is that if you don't want to follow orders, you should be shown the door, and in this case, without prejudice.

 

[Lord Ratner]

5 hours ago, Waingro said:

Here's the source I cited above showing vaccine efficacy. You can infer from that what you will. I never said I was in favor of vaccine mandates, only that they're pretty plainly lawful orders.

The only argument that I'm putting forth is that if you don't want to follow orders, you should be shown the door, and in this case, without prejudice.

 

I agree with you entirely there. And I think it's an acceptable middle ground. I think the order is lawful, but exceptionally questionable.

 

Questionable based on the direct impact of COVID to the military demographic (minimal) and the failure of the vaccines to prevent transmission.

[pawnman]

11 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

Anyone else at a base that is barring TDYs unless you’re fully vaccinated and boosted?

AFROTC won't let cadets do base visits, activate scholarships, commission, or sign contracts after field training if they aren't vaccinated. 

[BashiChuni]

Don’t worry guys biden is cooking up a new monkeypox vax! Just give it some fear and a few weeks/months and you’ll be injecting another mandatory vax

[BashiChuni]

13 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Hold up... Define efficacy. 

 

So yeah, it works, so long as you redefine "works" in a way that no longer has much to do with military necessity.

Hilarious. It absolutely does not work. And it’s not your truth. 
 

“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is” - bill clinton. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by BashiChuni

[Boomer6]

6 hours ago, pawnman said:

AFROTC won't let cadets do base visits, activate scholarships, commission, or sign contracts after field training if they aren't vaccinated. 

Yep, am tracking restrictions based on being fully vaccinated. Booster requirements/being up-to-date is specifically what I’m talking about.

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Boomer6 said:

Yep, am tracking restrictions based on being fully vaccinated. Booster requirements/being up-to-date is specifically what I’m talking about.

There is a legal prohibition on military requiring boosters.  The booster remains under an EUA unlike the FDA approved shots.  There are some commanders trying to trick their people or pressure them into getting boosters because they have requirements to deploy into locations which require boosters (I think Kuwait is an example).  But that places those commanders in an precarious position, and would not survive first contact with legal.  

[Boomer6]

Yeah, I know of some Wg/CCs not allowing ppl to go TDY unless they’re up-to-date (vaccinated plus booster within 6mo). Just curious what other bases have the same policies.

[Standby]

1 hour ago, Boomer6 said:

Yeah, I know of some Wg/CCs not allowing ppl to go TDY unless they’re up-to-date (vaccinated plus booster within 6mo). Just curious what other bases have the same policies.

No BS, that needs to be reported. 

[Boomer6]

7 minutes ago, Standby said:

No BS, that needs to be reported. 

Lol reported to who? The IG works for the Wg/CC. An AF level IG isn’t going to go against this kind of order. A letter to a congressman/senator, even a conservative one, wouldn’t do much with a liberal administration as top cover. Regardless of what I think I’m pretty sure there’s nothing stoping a Wg/CC from preventing ppl from going TDY unless they’re boosted. 

[Tank]

[tac airlifter]

12 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

I’m pretty sure there’s nothing stoping a Wg/CC from preventing ppl from going TDY unless they’re boosted. 

It’s an interesting question.  Are TDYs tied to career progression?  Is career progression tied to promotion?  
 

What would happen to a WG/CC if he told a pregnant airmen that based on her choice to become pregnant she would be denied opportunities for career development and progression?  Or what if only pilots who received elective eye surgery to forego wearing glasses could TDY, and therefore advance professionally?

Where I’m going here is that a policy of pushing elective medical procedures by attaching career impacting consequences to the choice wouldn’t withstand first contact with legal in any other context.  I copy a portion of society has gone COVID psycho, but it’s logically indefensible and unlikely to be sustained if pushed against.  Just my guess, I’m not a WG/CC.

[Boomer6]

10 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Where I’m going here is that a policy of pushing elective medical procedures by attaching career impacting consequences to the choice wouldn’t withstand first contact with legal in any other context.  I copy a portion of society has gone COVID psycho, but it’s logically indefensible and unlikely to be sustained if pushed against.  Just my guess, I’m not a WG/CC.

I think most of us can agree logic has went out the window with regard to the AF’s view of the vaccine. As far as the legal side goes the bobs send these declarations through legal before publishing them. Additionally, unless someone plans on suing their leadership I see an IG complaint as the only legal recourse members would have. However,  I think the only way to get movement through that route would be to submit a complaint to congress

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, Boomer6 said:

I think most of us can agree logic has went out the window with regard to the AF’s view of the vaccine. As far as the legal side goes the bobs send these declarations through legal before publishing them. Additionally, unless someone plans on suing their leadership I see an IG complaint as the only legal recourse members would have. However,  I think the only way to get movement through that route would be to submit a complaint to congress

Also look into UCMJ Article 138. Once I learned about this, I now share it with everyone. Its one of the most powerful tools, you, as the member, have to hold a negligent commander accountable if they are doing something unlawful. May not be vaccine related, can be for anything.