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The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

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2 hours ago, kaputt said:

Statue of Ulysses S. Grant torn down in San Francisco. The man who won the Civil War for the Union, freed the only slave he ever owned, and was eulogized by Frederick Douglas. 

Our education system is a failure.

Also San Francisco is not America. 

Neither is Seattle nor it’s conclave “Chaz.”  Really sucks that the left has taken over some of the prettiest scenery in America. 

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Was asked the other day by a kook liberal friend (but I repeat myself), "What are you doing, Brick, to adopt the new social consciousness that America is developing?"

"I carry a reload now," I answered.

They were not amused.

I was...

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, dream big said:

Neither is Seattle nor it’s conclave “Chaz.”  Really sucks that the left has taken over some of the prettiest scenery in America. 

When does it turn into Lord of the Flies?  Is there a warlord?  Man, what a time to be alive!  /sarcasm

I'm not sure how much to trust my memory of the 90's when I was in HS, but subjectively it feels like America has changed a ton since there.  And not for the better.

1)  Limited media outlets limit opposing views (I'm no liberal but I did read Chomsky's Manufactering Consent, and it talks about this).

2)  The echo chamber of social media where people make decisions based on groupthink and their feelings as opposed to facts and logic*.

3)  Big tech companies (FB, Google, YouTube etc...) filtering their content politically, selectitvely.

4)  The hijacking of language, to the point where it is not possible to disucuss things as they are.  The actual truth becomes impossible to dig out, which makes already difficult problems impossible to solve.

5)  Academia (colleges) imparting their ideals on an entire generation of Americans.  I went to the Academy so I feel like this isn't something I have witnessed first hand, but I have absolutely seen the effects.  All my previously farily conservative relatives come out of college with all these wacky liberal ideas and views that don't seem to be grounded in reality at all*.

*These two points I think are related.  One of the root causes of our countries problems right now is falling back to our emotions and using emotions over logic to address our problems.  College is supposed to teach the opposite.  It's like we are evolving the wrong way (Behave by Sapolsky talks a lot about how are brains differ from lower animals, and basically our greatest tool is critical thinking, animals rely heavily on emotion - you shouldn't need to read a book though to realize this!)

I realize that I am preaching to the choir, but I am much more concerned about our country than I have ever been.  The division will be our downfall.  The 1st amendment (censorship, COVID assembly bans), 2nd (talk of more gun control), 4th (mass survellence and contact tracing "justified" by COVID)...  Ugly times.

Edited by billy pilgrim
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Posted (edited)

I was a Political Science major at a state college in Washington. Never once did I have professor try to impart some bias in class. I was also in my mid-30s when I graduated, so it would’ve been easier to see than compared to an 18-22 year old. I currently go to Georgetown for my masters and haven’t experienced a professor trying put a certain narrative towards a political ideology. In this day in age of the “woke” movement, professors are walking on egg shells trying not to offend anyone and possibly losing their jobs. I guess I could see a bias at an Ivy or Berkeley, but I haven’t observed that in my personal experience. 

Edited by Sua Sponte
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Posted (edited)

College towns are on the top of the list for mil-retirement destination for us precisely for that reason. In my experience, the closest I've got to a bona fide "live and let live" construct, has been in 2 of the three college towns I've lived in. We're very much looking forward to exploring college locations as we approach my mil retire.

Snowbirding is another alternative we've explored in order to ameliorate some of the political recalcitrance of both sides of the political divide. Sort of a poor man's "purple state" construct by proxy.

Now, can't we all just get along? Don't answer that, I'm being rhetorical 😄 

 

Edited by hindsight2020

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Posted (edited)

I went to University of Toledo and definitely saw some heavy liberal indoctrination in SOME of my classes. I think most professors are just too tired to give a shit though. But there were 2 classes I hated going to one quarter while in ROTC because the professor would always see me in my uniform and start railing on Bush and the wars in the Middle East knowing that I can't say anything. Was super annoying. 

Since Toledo was a cross town school and the upper classmen were pretty chill I ended up just not wearing my uniform until I went to lead lab. Worked out ok. 

Edited by FLEA
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11 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

I was a Political Science major at a state college in Washington. Never once did I have professor try to impart some bias in class. I was also in my mid-30s when I graduated, so it would’ve been easier to see than compared to an 18-22 year old. I currently go to Georgetown for my masters and haven’t experienced a professor trying put a certain narrative towards a political ideology. In this day in age of the “woke” movement, professors are walking on egg shells trying not to offend anyone and possibly losing their jobs. I guess I could see a bias at an Ivy or Berkeley, but I haven’t observed that in my personal experience. 

I can't remember which podcast/youtube video I saw this in, but I seem to remember Brett Weinstein making the argument that the college kids were indoctrinating themselves to a certain degree. 

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Was that video a bait? Did you actually watch it?

Crap - they deleted the show
Apologies and yes I watched it last night

Here’s the monologue from FN’s YouTube account:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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On 6/20/2020 at 10:18 PM, Sua Sponte said:

I was a Political Science major at a state college in Washington. Never once did I have professor try to impart some bias in class. I was also in my mid-30s when I graduated, so it would’ve been easier to see than compared to an 18-22 year old. I currently go to Georgetown for my masters and haven’t experienced a professor trying put a certain narrative towards a political ideology. In this day in age of the “woke” movement, professors are walking on egg shells trying not to offend anyone and possibly losing their jobs. I guess I could see a bias at an Ivy or Berkeley, but I haven’t observed that in my personal experience. 

Waving the BS flag at this one. I am a business professor at a state university and most of my students tell me tales from across campus. Thankfully most business schools are grounded in reality unlike most of the liberal arts departments. I've spoken to many of my colleagues across campus, and it is a rare bird that doesn't lean hard left (further than the few left leaning flyers on here) and most make sure their students know about it. I stay away from topics other than information systems and accounting unless a student comes to me and specifically wants to discuss political or social issues.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/20/2020 at 11:18 PM, Sua Sponte said:

I was a Political Science major at a state college in Washington. Never once did I have professor try to impart some bias in class. I was also in my mid-30s when I graduated, so it would’ve been easier to see than compared to an 18-22 year old. I currently go to Georgetown for my masters and haven’t experienced a professor trying put a certain narrative towards a political ideology. In this day in age of the “woke” movement, professors are walking on egg shells trying not to offend anyone and possibly losing their jobs. I guess I could see a bias at an Ivy or Berkeley, but I haven’t observed that in my personal experience. 

I was the same major and had a mixed experience. Our department had identified ultra-left/marxists, and anyone of a middle to right view knew to avoid those classes if possible. Otherwise our professors were left-leaning but not AOC-types, and some held a few conservative points if you spoke to them during office hours.

My stupid ass thought I was special so I took one class with a Marxist anyhow... thinking they couldn’t give me a bad grade if I did the research and work. She handed me a shit grade for good work, looked me dead in the eye and recommended I drop her class if I wanted to protect my GPA. I took her advice.

Edited by Kiloalpha

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On 6/23/2020 at 1:55 PM, Kiloalpha said:

My stupid ass thought I was special so I took one class with a Marxist anyhow... thinking they couldn’t give me a bad grade if I did the research and work. She handed me a shit grade for good work, looked me dead in the eye and recommended I drop her class if I wanted to protect my GPA. I took her advice.

Yay American education.  

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On 6/23/2020 at 10:08 AM, bfargin said:

Waving the BS flag at this one. I am a business professor at a state university and most of my students tell me tales from across campus. Thankfully most business schools are grounded in reality unlike most of the liberal arts departments. I've spoken to many of my colleagues across campus, and it is a rare bird that doesn't lean hard left (further than the few left leaning flyers on here) and most make sure their students know about it. I stay away from topics other than information systems and accounting unless a student comes to me and specifically wants to discuss political or social issues.

You’re waiving a bs flag at my college experience, one you don’t have any frame of reference to? Okay. At my school a few Poli Sci professors were attorneys, so unlike the peanut gallery of people who assume to the know the law, they actually did, unlike the Social Media Law School that most of the society apparently has recently gone to. According to this 2017 Pew Research Center Poll, Democrats are more educated than Republicans, with postgraduate experience being two-to-one ratio of Democrats to Republicans. Might explain why “it is a rare bird that doesn’t learn hard left.” Republicans apparently are not going to college.

https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/

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On 6/23/2020 at 1:55 PM, Kiloalpha said:

I was the same major and had a mixed experience. Our department had identified ultra-left/marxists, and anyone of a middle to right view knew to avoid those classes if possible. Otherwise our professors were left-leaning but not AOC-types, and some held a few conservative points if you spoke to them during office hours.

My stupid ass thought I was special so I took one class with a Marxist anyhow... thinking they couldn’t give me a bad grade if I did the research and work. She handed me a shit grade for good work, looked me dead in the eye and recommended I drop her class if I wanted to protect my GPA. I took her advice.

Marx also believed that people were either bourgeoisie or a proletariat, however a fatal flaw to his reasoning is the fact that in a democracy/republic people are either a bourgeoise to someone, or a proletariat to someone. This depends on their role, and the role of the other party. Therefore, his great “class consciousness” theory starting a revolt would be moot.

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6 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

You’re waiving a bs flag at my college experience, one you don’t have any frame of reference to? Okay. At my school a few Poli Sci professors were attorneys, so unlike the peanut gallery of people who assume to the know the law, they actually did, unlike the Social Media Law School that most of the society apparently has recently gone to. According to this 2017 Pew Research Center Poll, Democrats are more educated than Republicans, with postgraduate experience being two-to-one ratio of Democrats to Republicans. Might explain why “it is a rare bird that doesn’t learn hard left.” Republicans apparently are not going to college.

https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/

I have tons of "frame of reference" for college experience. And since you are a self proclaimed left leaning person, of course you didn't see any bias when you were in school because you were probably in total agreement with the sentiments expressed. I stand by my BS flag in it being possible to get through a US university program without being exposed to tons of left wing bias. I'm in a conservative part of the US, and it's still prevalent in all public universities here.

Maybe the pew study showed just how influential college professors, who lean far left, can be on young unsuspecting people. As to the end of your paragraph ... so you're saying there are lots of educated dumb asses running around?

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7 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

Marx also believed that people were either bourgeoisie or a proletariat, however a fatal flaw to his reasoning is the fact that in a democracy/republic people are either a bourgeoise to someone, or a proletariat to someone. This depends on their role, and the role of the other party. Therefore, his great “class consciousness” theory starting a revolt would be moot.

So Marx was an idiot? I agree.

How does that have anything to do with my example though?

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13 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

 with postgraduate experience being two-to-one ratio of Democrats to Republicans. 

It is far more socially acceptable in some circles to spend your late twenties making $6000 a year studying political science so that you can teach political science. Grad school numbers don't indicate intelligence, possibly quite the opposite. "If we were good at life, we wouldn't need more school."

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, bfargin said:

I have tons of "frame of reference" for college experience. And since you are a self proclaimed left leaning person, of course you didn't see any bias when you were in school because you were probably in total agreement with the sentiments expressed. I stand by my BS flag in it being possible to get through a US university program without being exposed to tons of left wing bias. I'm in a conservative part of the US, and it's still prevalent in all public universities here.

Maybe the pew study showed just how influential college professors, who lean far left, can be on young unsuspecting people. As to the end of your paragraph ... so you're saying there are lots of educated dumb asses running around?

I'd like to see where I claimed I was "left leaning person." I'm more of a moderate. I'm sure you have frame of reference, from what you've seen, but not what I observed in either my undergrad or grad school. There are plenty of educated dumb asses running around, I used to work for them in the Air Force, they're called Officers.

Edited by Sua Sponte
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2 hours ago, Stoker said:

It is far more socially acceptable in some circles to spend your late twenties making $6000 a year studying political science so that you can teach political science. Grad school numbers don't indicate intelligence, possibly quite the opposite. "If we were good at life, we wouldn't need more school."

Intelligence, like a lot of things in life, is subjective. You're right, as of 2020, the 116th Congress has 66% members of the House and 77% of the Senate have postgraduate degrees, it is quite the opposite.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R45583.pdf

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Kiloalpha said:

So Marx was an idiot? I agree.

How does that have anything to do with my example though?

I wouldn't call him an idiot because you, or I, don't agree with his political theory. It doesn't, but I did find it interesting that you just dropped the class. If a professor said something like that, with their confirmation bias, which shows they can't fairly grade my work due to it, my next discussion would be with the department chair. I took a Marxism class in college and there were plenty of people who were obviously Anti-Marx, however made compelling arguments against his ideology and did well. Obviously your mileage may vary. 

Edited by Sua Sponte

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Baseops, like most military social circles, is an echo chamber of people who have never had their views confronted.

You ever sit back and just let the irony that you all live and work in a socialist paradise wash over you? Once you're in, your job is secure (you face no chance of an immediate layoff, and the VAST majority of people can make it to 20-40 years if they want to), your healthcare is paid for, you get an affordable housing allowance based on your status in the system (oh and it changes based on where you are in America), you have a perception that budget doesn't matter (who cares how much that FHP or those TVs costs, just fly it and buy it so we get more money next year), you get basically guaranteed promotions that are based more on timing than on merit, you're handed a ridiculous retirement package that requires no self-involvement or contributions, the worst workers are paid the same as the best, you get paid when a pandemic causes you not to work at all for weeks, you get regular wage increases that keep up with or exceed inflation, you have 30 days of paid leave a year. The military organization keeps hundreds of thousands of people on payroll (in a money bleeding way) just in case they need them, paying them way more than the value we get out of them (the vast majority of the military is a self-licking ice cream cone when we aren't at real war). The military system is the antithesis to self-reliance, meritocracy, accountability, ROI, or profitability. But it sure is nice to be in it right now when the system out there isn't taking care of people.

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11 minutes ago, brawnie said:

Baseops, like most military social circles, is an echo chamber of people who have never had their views confronted.

You ever sit back and just let the irony that you all live and work in a socialist paradise wash over you? Once you're in, your job is secure (you face no chance of an immediate layoff, and the VAST majority of people can make it to 20-40 years if they want to), your healthcare is paid for, you get an affordable housing allowance based on your status in the system (oh and it changes based on where you are in America), you have a perception that budget doesn't matter (who cares how much that FHP or those TVs costs, just fly it and buy it so we get more money next year), you get basically guaranteed promotions that are based more on timing than on merit, you're handed a ridiculous retirement package that requires no self-involvement or contributions, the worst workers are paid the same as the best, you get paid when a pandemic causes you not to work at all for weeks, you get regular wage increases that keep up with or exceed inflation, you have 30 days of paid leave a year. The military organization keeps hundreds of thousands of people on payroll (in a money bleeding way) just in case they need them, paying them way more than the value we get out of them (the vast majority of the military is a self-licking ice cream cone when we aren't at real war). The military system is the antithesis to self-reliance, meritocracy, accountability, ROI, or profitability. But it sure is nice to be in it right now when the system out there isn't taking care of people.

I've also seen this lead to delusions of grandeur for some prior military of what their "value" is worth when competing for jobs. This is especially true for my enlisted friends.

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@brawnie I'm not an officer or a pilot (currently an enlisted grunt in the USAR in the midst of applying to ANG/AFRES units), but I'd like to address some of what you said, if I can. Admins, if you feel I ought to know my place, please let me know. 

10 hours ago, brawnie said:

You ever sit back and just let the irony that you all live and work in a socialist paradise wash over you? 

I think most of us work in the "socialist paradise," as you put it, as a sacrifice because at the end of the day, we have to sacrifice certain things (where we live, how long we have to work, whether we sleep in a cot or a hole in the ground, if we get shot at, etc) in order to protect the constitution and the citizens it protects.

10 hours ago, brawnie said:

Once you're in, your job is secure (you face no chance of an immediate layoff, and the VAST majority of people can make it to 20-40 years if they want to), your healthcare is paid for, you get an affordable housing allowance based on your status in the system (oh and it changes based on where you are in America), you have a perception that budget doesn't matter

For the most part, even in the civilian world, once you're in your job is also secure (barring any large screw-ups.) In the civilian world, your healthcare is also pretty much paid for and I've never worked a job that didn't have a pretty good PPO for a meager sum ever month (<$20). Depending on your organization, budgets can operate exactly like the military. 

The military doesn't really manufacture anything, it just uses things manufactured by contractors (for the most part,) so the whole socialist portion is a little misleading. Realistically, a government is only socialist when it owns the means of production, which is not the case here. Yes, we have certain safety nets, but given the fact that a 19 year old can have his ass shot off at a moment's notice in a far-off land with no creature comforts, I'd say that's a fair trade. 

10 hours ago, brawnie said:

the worst workers are paid the same as the best, you get paid when a pandemic causes you not to work at all for weeks, you get regular wage increases that keep up with or exceed inflation, you have 30 days of paid leave a year

With my civilian job, I have almost 8 weeks of paid vacation saved up. Some companies have no cap to their PTO. 

10 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

The military system is the antithesis to self-reliance, meritocracy, accountability, ROI, or profitability. But it sure is nice to be in it right now when the system out there isn't taking care of people.

The military's main purpose is not to generate a profit, because it's not a business and therefore doesn't produce anything. The military (as far as I understand with my limited experience) exists to protect the United States of America and her interests. You can't really put a price on that. As for it not being a meritocracy, I really can't speak for the Air Force. I have seen some really crappy soldiers advance in rank and some really great ones also advance in rank. And vice-versa.

It's very difficult to gauge ROI because because how do you effectively judge the necessity of a weapon until you absolutely need to use it? I think it's like owning a firearm: I have a fairly expensive rifle that I've spent many hours and dollars zeroing and turning into a hell of a tack-driver and killing machine at distance. I hope I never have to use it, but if I ever do, I would judge the ROI by the sole criterion that it eliminated the threat. If there's never a threat to eliminate, well, then I have to eat that cost, but what alternative do I really have?

Now, to your credit, the military is rife with admin bloat and tons of money wasted on contractors who do things service members are trained to do and should be doing. I don't know how the USAF works, but in my short tenure in the Army, my pay has been messed up, my Enlisted Record Brief is still jacked up no matter how many times I go to S-1 and give them copies of my "I love me book." So in a lot of senses, it is kind of like a communist government.  

Once again, sorry if I've stepped on any toes or spoken out of turn. Admins, please let me know if I'm in the wrong place by posting here and I'll happily edit/remove this post. 

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