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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)


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6 hours ago, MyCS said:

I get the numbers. But S. Korea doesn't have 50 states to contend with or a populace of 300M+. Wouldn't a fair comparison be India, China, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Brazil due to population size? For example, India and Brazil number of cases are close to each other. Not to mention the number of people who were traveling to the US before travel restrictions were implemented.

I don't think that quite fair because the US is far richer than those countries. We have the money to wrap our hands around this. A more equal comparison would be the EU: https://www.gzeromedia.com/the-graphic-truth-two-different-pandemics-eu-vs-us-12072020

Different countries with different rules, higher income and education, and a variety of political leaders. Though they are getting hit hard right now (I'm sure the UK variant isn't helping) the US has kept a higher case load and death count throughout the pandemic vs what Europe has had.  

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The Crozier situation has sparked many illuminating conversations up and down the chain.  No, we don’t know all details but the core issues ring true to anyone who has experienced mid-level authority

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The simple answer is because our country politicized this from the beginning.  Had this been taken seriously by leadership, people would be doing more to help each other.  Instead, it's a political issue to show your allegiance with your side...

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Alarming number of US health care workers are refusing COVID-19 vaccine. 
https://nypost.com/2021/01/01/alarming-number-of-us-health-care-workers-are-refusing-covid-19-vaccine/
Medical/first responders on my base are receiving a second chance to receive the vaccine for those who declined. I don't think they are going to change their minds. 


Well, this is what happens when you get media reports every day of only the bad things that happen.

“Doctor has major reaction to Covid Vaccine” then you read the article and the dude is allergic to everything under the sun and then uses his own epi-pen to snap himself out of anaphylactic shock.

Or the nurse that passed out when she got the vaccine. Oh my God! Apparently she has passed out after every vaccine she’s ever had.

My wife (an RN) got it last week. No issues. Someday I’ll get mine and it’ll take it’s place next to like 20 anthrax boosters, so much yellow fever, flu, whatever that one they inject into your ass cheek that feels like a lump of peanut butter, and the rest.

As the article states, the politicizing of this whole thing makes me laugh. Some of the same folks I know that are virtue signaling mask-shamers that want me to stop the spread and stay at home and not kill grandma are the same ones that won’t take the vaccine...that will stop the spread...so we don’t have to stay home...and we don’t kill grandma...

But whatever. People make choices. Some people like Burger King more than McDonalds.

It’ll be funny when you can’t board a plane or enter another country without one though...



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If anyone doesn't want their vaccine, at this point, fine. I'll take yours and if there's more to dole out I've got plenty of friends and family that want theirs ASAP too.

While we're still supply-constrained and bottlenecked at distribution here early on, I honestly don't care if people decline it or not; that's on them. With a vaccine that's 95% effective honestly the people who get it don't have to give a f*ck if other people don't. I'll happy take mine and once my family is all vaccinated we can put the pandemic behind us while the Darwin Award winners of the world continue to be vulnerable.

Unfortunately the people who get hurt most by that ultra-individualistic mindset are those who want the vaccine but are ineligible to get it at all (weird health conditions, etc.) or are so far down on the priority list that they won't have a chance for many months (young kids). I'd attempt to make the argument that, "Hey, everyone should get it to help your fellow man blah blah blah so we can reach some level of population immunity," but that ship has long sailed for far too many Americans. As a wise person once said, I don't know how to explain to you why you should care about other people.

IMHO we should continue to follow the mostly age-based & somewhat job-based distribution plans but speed things up as much as humanly possible. If there are leftover vials at the end of the day, just jam that shit into anyone who wants it. 24/7 vaccination centers, etc. Don't let a single drop go to waste & try your best to make available vaccines = vaccines administered. It ain't doing anyone any good sitting in the fridge.

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50 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

With a vaccine that's 95% effective honestly the people who get it don't have to give a f*ck if other people don't.

95% effective at reducing/eliminating symptoms, but we have no idea if the vaccine stops transmission (we’re assuming no until proven otherwise). So honest question, why are we so concerned with 80% of people getting the shots - as you put it, let Darwin take its course.  If people get their shots and are protected, then why do they care if their neighbor does? In theory you have the full vaccination and I sneeze in your face, you’re protected at a 95% rate...this point has even more efficacy if the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission (unknown currently).

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3 hours ago, MyCS said:

Alarming number of US health care workers are refusing COVID-19 vaccine. 

https://nypost.com/2021/01/01/alarming-number-of-us-health-care-workers-are-refusing-covid-19-vaccine/

Medical/first responders on my base are receiving a second chance to receive the vaccine for those who declined. I don't think they are going to change their minds. 

I've also been surprised at the number of medical staff at my hospital have refused the vaccine so far. I would peg it at 10-20% though the actual number could be higher. We gave people a chance to wait and not outright decline the vaccine though I know soon we will require an official declination. I have no idea how many people will change their mind once they see their coworkers get both rounds (our second round starts tomorrow) and see that they don't turn into a 5G tower. 

 

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

IMHO we should continue to follow the mostly age-based & somewhat job-based distribution plans but speed things up as much as humanly possible. If there are leftover vials at the end of the day, just jam that shit into anyone who wants it. 24/7 vaccination centers, etc. Don't let a single drop go to waste & try your best to make available vaccines = vaccines administered. It ain't doing anyone any good sitting in the fridge.

Some states have done a better job than others at this: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/ . It's interesting to see it isn't really a red vs blue thing on distribution (SD and ME are both doing really well). 

I now think that our desire to get the vaccine to "the right people" is slowing down the effort, especially if the "right" people are dragging their feet. Give them a chance and move on if they don't want it right then. To my knowledge in my 4 hospital system we haven't wasted a dose because we couldn't find an arm to put it in. But we have had to go to some lengths to find one last person to get vaccinated at each shot clinic. 

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3 hours ago, brabus said:

 

95% effective at reducing/eliminating symptoms, but we have no idea if the vaccine stops transmission (we’re assuming no until proven otherwise). So honest question, why are we so concerned with 80% of people getting the shots - as you put it, let Darwin take its course.  If people get their shots and are protected, then why do they care if their neighbor does? In theory you have the full vaccination and I sneeze in your face, you’re protected at a 95% rate...this point has even more efficacy if the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission (unknown currently).

I care about overall vaccination numbers because even once I’m vaccinated, my unvaccinated neighbors will continue to fill up hospitals and drain resources from the local all the way up to the national level. I care about those numbers because if a large percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, that will extend policies requiring social distancing, mask wearing, and continue to hobble the economy. It really seems pretty simple to me: If you want your life back, get your vaccine and encourage your family, friends, coworkers, and neighbors to get it too. 

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10 minutes ago, Prozac said:

my unvaccinated neighbors will continue to fill up hospitals and drain resources from the local all the way up to the national level.

Fair point. My follow up question/thought is once the high risk are vaccinated (assumption is that group is fairly open to/diligent about getting vaccinated), then will the lower risk group who remains unvaccinated really drain resources (because that’s also the same group who is hospitalized at a significantly lower rate)? 

 

13 minutes ago, Prozac said:

if a large percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, that will extend policies requiring social distancing, mask wearing, and continue to hobble the economy

Is the unvaccinated population the root cause, or is it the gov enacting policies that aren’t rational (especially in the near future as high risk populations are vaccinated), but don’t affect them personally/even benefit them in some ways? It behooves people to be skeptical when the gov says, “just do this because we said so, or else (fill in threats...)!”
 

The above is to generate thought/discussion, not an argument...since it can be difficult to tell by words alone.

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59 minutes ago, brabus said:

 

the gov enacting policies that aren’t rational

this x1000. the government is ridiculous.

close small businesses....keep PACKED costcos and walmarts open.

close poker rooms...keep the craps tables open WTF?!

close down beaches?! wear a mask while jogging on isolated running trails?!

government doesn't know all, doesn't have your best interests, doesn't know how to keep you safe, and doesn't care about taking away your liberty.

and the lockdowns haven't worked, but people preach at you like locking down HARDER will work BETTER. crazy man. it really is incredible how easily it is to influence a large swath of the population to blindly follow bullshit.

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18 minutes ago, MyCS said:

If you receive the vaccine, you still have to wear a mask and social distance. They have said this repeatedly at the briefings I've attended.

Someone asked in a briefing how long it will last in a person's system. Nobody knew. 

how long should we wear bullshit masks? 1 year? 5? 10?

 

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this x1000. the government is ridiculous.
close small businesses....keep PACKED costcos and walmarts open.
close poker rooms...keep the craps tables open WTF?!
close down beaches?! wear a mask while jogging on isolated running trails?!
government doesn't know all, doesn't have your best interests, doesn't know how to keep you safe, and doesn't care about taking away your liberty.
and the lockdowns haven't worked, but people preach at you like locking down HARDER will work BETTER. crazy man. it really is incredible how easily it is to influence a large swath of the population to blindly follow bullshit.


I 100% agree with you. The inconsistencies you stated drive me insane.

I still can’t wrap my head around people I saw this summer wearing masks while hiking and looking at me like I had three heads for not wearing a mask. Outside, in a 15-20 kt breeze, in the sunlight, further than 6 feet. YGBFSM.

As a longtime youth and high school coach, I HATE what we are doing to the kids up here in the northeast. Let them play. I’m thankful both my kids were able to go to school in person part time and skate/play fall ball. A lot of kids lost that opportunity.

But, the only way I can see to get out from under this utter stupidity is to make the numbers of people in the ICU and the numbers of people dying go down.

If we vaccinate the high risk, then (hopefully) if they get Covid they just get sick and get better since their body now knows how to fight it. If we get the healthcare providers, they will hopefully only get mild cases and be less contagious over time.

We get the vaccine to the rest of the folks and maybe people have to confidence fo fly, go to school, teach, etc.

The media has stoked this panic for months and has worked people up into a lather and incompetence in the government at a lot of levels have gotten us to where we are. Now people just watch the metrics. Where I live we are at like a 10% positivity. Over the summer it was like 0.8 and it took forever to open up. It’s going the wrong direction, and like you said, I do not want to see another lockdown.
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3 hours ago, brabus said:

Fair point. My follow up question/thought is once the high risk are vaccinated (assumption is that group is fairly open to/diligent about getting vaccinated), then will the lower risk group who remains unvaccinated really drain resources (because that’s also the same group who is hospitalized at a significantly lower rate)? 

 

Is the unvaccinated population the root cause, or is it the gov enacting policies that aren’t rational (especially in the near future as high risk populations are vaccinated), but don’t affect them personally/even benefit them in some ways? It behooves people to be skeptical when the gov says, “just do this because we said so, or else (fill in threats...)!”
 

The above is to generate thought/discussion, not an argument...since it can be difficult to tell by words alone.

To your first point: getting the high risk population vaccinated is a hurdle that we have yet to pass, as you alluded to. Assuming we get there, you may have a valid point. I’d say ask a epidemiologist. I’m not one, and so far they are saying we need 70-80% vaccination to eradicate this disease. As I am not an expert on the topic, I’m inclined to believe them. 
 

To your second point: We can all hem and haw over the effectiveness of various local policies regarding trying to stem the spread of COVID. I certainly don’t agree with everything going on in my neck of the country (especially schools remaining closed), but there are a lot of people attempting to make policy with the best information they have. I wouldn’t want their jobs & honestly don’t understand what they stand to gain by implementing restrictions other than pissing off a large portion of society. Regardless of how you or I feel about these policies, they will be here for the duration of the pandemic. It stands to reason that if you want those restrictions to go away, you should very much be pro vaccine. 

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2 hours ago, MyCS said:

If you receive the vaccine, you still have to wear a mask and social distance. They have said this repeatedly at the briefings I've attended.

Someone asked in a briefing how long it will last in a person's system. Nobody knew. 

Is it really too much to ask people to think things through to a logical conclusion? Of course we will have to continue to social distance and wear masks for as long as C19 continues to spread unabated. However, the sooner we reach heard immunity (vaccination will allow for this FAR faster than letting it happen naturally, and at FAR less cost), the sooner the virus stops spreading, and the sooner we can take the fucking masks off and get back to life. Simple. 

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I hope masks partially stay. Got a cold/flu and need/want to go out? Wear a mask and keep your crud to yourself.

But hopefully we'll get to not having/needing everyone wear a mask out in the next several months.

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I hope masks partially stay. Got a cold/flu and need/want to go out? Wear a mask and keep your crud to yourself.

But hopefully we'll get to not having/needing everyone wear a mask out in the next several months.


Yeah...I’m usually sick with some sort of crud 2-3 times a year. Haven’t been sick since all this started.

I hope this exercise also changes how people across the board treat calling in sick.
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3 hours ago, jazzdude said:

 Got a cold/flu and need/want to go out? Wear a mask and keep your crud to yourself.

When my dad was stationed at Misawa (early 60s) I remember some Japanese people wearing masks. I remember our housegirl telling me it was because they were sick and didn't want to spread their germs.

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3 hours ago, MyCS said:

You need 80% of the populace to receive the vaccine for herd immunity. Not going to happen if most people decline to take the vaccine. Around 240M people would need to receive the vaccine.

Hence the reason I’m pro vaccine. If vaccination rates don’t get to where they need to be, the pain is going to last much longer than necessary. 

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8 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

Asian countries have been doing it since SARS.

For healthy people?  

That’s the key distinction.  I think we’ve forever turned a page culturally, where we’ve realized it’s smart for SICK people to wear a mask.  

What most people want to know is when can HEALTHY people, with no symptoms, no cough, no sneezing, no runny nose, etc. stop wearing a mask?

It will be a long long time.  Which business will be the first?  I wonder what the research from large companies is showing, as far as potential customers gained vs customers lost if they drop mask requirements.  Moot point for now, I suppose, since we are no where even close.

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55 minutes ago, SpeedOfHeat said:

For healthy people?  

That’s the key distinction.  I think we’ve forever turned a page culturally, where we’ve realized it’s smart for SICK people to wear a mask.  

What most people want to know is when can HEALTHY people, with no symptoms, no cough, no sneezing, no runny nose, etc. stop wearing a mask?

It would be great if sick folks would wear a mask.  However, it is my opinion too many people believe masks infringe on their freedoms/too inconvenient combined with a lack of concern for others that many sick will NOT wear masks.  Therefore, you need to CYA and wear your masks to avoid picking up their crud.

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2 hours ago, flynutt said:

It would be great if sick folks would wear a mask.  However, it is my opinion too many people believe masks infringe on their freedoms/too inconvenient combined with a lack of concern for others that many sick will NOT wear masks.  Therefore, you need to CYA and wear your masks to avoid picking up their crud.

I think the opposite is occurring, at least right now.  Sick people are staying home.  Have you seen someone running a fever, or clearly congested, or with a persistent cough at the work place or casually shopping at Costco?  My experience has been that anyone who coughs, even once, even into their mask, gets a hairy eyeball.  I think very few legitimately sick people are out and about.

What we have is sick people at home without masks, getting their family members, or roommates (or nursing home cohabitants/caregivers) sick, and healthy people out of their homes wearing masks, essentially for no reason.  We have it all backwards.  

And to your last comment, about protecting yourself via mask, are you (correctly) wearing an N95 or better?  Because the surgical mask or the homemade cotton mask is doing nothing to protect you.

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Yes, sick people with noticeable symptoms are probably staying home.  But, how many asymptomatic sick people are not staying home and not wearing masks?  

Combine that with COVID guideline/policy inconsistencies, different personal interpretations of said guidelines and policies, and some people that just don't give a $h!t...that is why we find ourselves in this dumpster fire we're in.

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