The new airline thread

[SocialD]

7 minutes ago, Duck said:

SWAPA just asked for release.

 

 

Go get'em!

[AirGuardianC141747]

7 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

 

I don't have much time to change into PJ's for my morning, DTW-GRR (25 min airborne) day turn lol.  But your last sentence is the overall point.  Especially since a vast majority of them are great to work/chat with...but ya, there are the occasional Chads/Karens.  

Good point on downplaying certain aspects of the jobs as we all have our justifications. Either night flying isn’t so bad, sorts are OK, pax aren’t a problem, FA’s are pretty good for the most part, terminals are easy and not too crowded, TSA and KCM is a easy benefit, etc.

Overall, constant nights suck, Sorts suck, Pax suck on or off the plane, some FA’s as well as bad Capts and FO’s suck, crowds suck, checkpoints suck, switching planes suck, etc. 

We all have our priorities and mitigate or sacrifice ourselves to BS to ensure our desires are met. 
Whether it’s the $$$, schedule, base, home time, travel opportunities, type of flying I’m sure we can all agree that no one wanted to fly Pax or fly the Sort as a dream come true. It was something else, we are just dealing with it. Some do better than others no doubt.

Although I do very well it’s obviously the lifestyle (Rt seat senior) and not the coin that keeps me away from Sorts, Pax, Domestic Groundhog Day, undesirable long trips away (better trips and a couple of weeks max or split up), etc.

*I sacrifice left seat pay as I could not pick any extended time off, great globe trotting trips and highest paying trips as needed. Flying around hardly in uniform (T-Shirt, etc) and never being confined away from your bathroom, sleep quarters, bags and consumables is priceless. It’s not the pax as much for me as that dang door. As you age you will understand. Everyone’s priorities are different so I planned ahead and got lucky for me specifically. 
 

Edited June 29, 2023 by AirGuardianC141747

[tac airlifter]

3 hours ago, Duck said:

SWAPA just asked for release.


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What does that mean?

[Smokin]

[HuggyU2]

It means they believe they are at an impasse and they want to continue to move toward a strike. 

It's difficult to actually get the govt to allow an airline to strike... almost impossible under this Administration. And even if they did, there are (I think) three 30-day cooling down periods in the process. 

it's mainly symbolic. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by HuggyU2

[SocialD]

3 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

What does that mean?

 

It means they want to strike.   If approved, they'll go into a 30 day cooling off period, at which point they can exercise self help (strike).  The president can order them to work for 30 days, after which they enter another 30 day cooling off period.  The president can do that one more time, with the subsequent cooling off period.  At that point the strike can happen or congress can impose a contract.  

 

Or, if released, the strike can happen and the pilots can shut down the operation.   

 

At least that's how it was explained to me by a ALPA national rep.

Edited June 30, 2023 by SocialD

[Prozac]

16 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

It means they want to strike.   If approved, they'll go into a 30 day cooling off period, at which point they can exercise self help (strike).  The president can order them to work for 30 days, after which they enter another 30 day cooling off period.  The president can do that one more time, with the subsequent cooling off period.  At that point the strike can happen or congress can impose a contract.  

 

Or, if released, the strike can happen and the pilots can shut down the operation.   

 

At least that's how it was explained to me by a ALPA national rep.

A good reason to gain at least a working knowledge of the RLA when entering the civilian side of the career. RLA strike rules are very different from “normal” (NLRA) unionized jobs & having some basic understanding of the process is helpful when trying to wrap one’s head around the union side of this profession. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Might as well strike right now as airports are hotels already. Although not their fault, can’t imagine many smiles to aircrews aside from your gate your serving/maybe. Summer Slog Scare Fare Fest every year - known holiday mess forever, but it pays the bills.

*Pool time, it’s too hot just to be grill’n. Can’t imagine this weekend goat rope.

[hindsight2020]

*snickers* RLA is caca. In practice, employment under it is organized labor in name only.

In fairness, the airline schedules ponzi scheme *cough* I mean "arbitrage-by-seniority proxy", is a cake life compared to what the poor souls at the railroads keep facing pre and post Brandon PEB. Getting a PEB stuffed up their six over a meager soft pay ask, talk about an iron grip.

Most know RLA makes their strike leverage moot. Between the NMB run the clock offense and the triple layer Russian Donbas-styled trenches that are the PEBs, nobody's striking in earnest. 1997 called, it wanted to remind you who's ultimately at the helm.

 

At any rate, good luck to you all on the continued negotiations. Grab as much as you can negotiate before the music stops again. 🍺

Edited July 1, 2023 by hindsight2020

[Sua Sponte]

I was flying DEN to MEL today on UAL. After seeing how depressed UAL pax are at DEN, glad I rebooked through Qantas.

[SocialD]

As mentioned above, it's extremely tough for airline pilots to actually be released to strike.  I think one of the regionals worked on an expired contract for like 10 years or something crazy.  The threat isn't so much about actually striking, but getting the passengers to worry about it.  If they're worried about a strike, they'll book away and hit the bottom line...something investors (and bosses) hate.  This is why you heard Ed Bastian (DAL CEO) say on national news that our pilots were ever going to be able to strike (paraphrased).  

[gearhog]

I'm sure there's a point at which the pilots will become sick and tired of being told they won't be able to strike.

[HuggyU2]

3 hours ago, gearhog said:

I'm sure there's a point at which the pilots will become sick and tired of being told they won't be able to strike.

And then what?  

Something like that happened at United years ago... and when it went to court, the union was found guilty of creating an illegal job action. 

It's a very, very delicate tightrope maneuver.  

[gearhog]

7 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

And then what?  

Something like that happened at United years ago... and when it went to court, the union was found guilty of creating an illegal job action. 

It's a very, very delicate tightrope maneuver.  

Right. Any organized union campaign to violate the status quo would clearly be detrimental to the cause. But as individuals, I can certainly see where a lack of progress would weigh heavily on the minds of the average pilot.

It appears the union is committed to the RLA process, but if the process fails to give recourse, I think the "burn it all down" mentality could take hold. If unionization doesn't yield results, many pilots may not care if the union gets sued.

I hope the Southwest contract sets the bar high for everyone else.

[HeloDude]

Which begs the question:  Why should airline pilots demand crazy pay when management knows they won’t/can’t strike?  It’s not like Delta pilots would have left in droves to go work for other airlines.  And it’s not like Frontier or Spirt pilots are crashing all the time either, yet they’re not making the same pay.

 

[HossHarris]

7 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Which begs the question:  Why should airline pilots demand crazy pay when management knows they won’t/can’t strike?  It’s not like Delta pilots would have left in droves to go work for other airlines.  And it’s not like Frontier or Spirt pilots are crashing all the time either, yet they’re not making the same pay.

 

But it is like that. 
 

at the moment, American, southwest, and FedEx pilots are coming to delta. 
 

is it droves…no. 
is it enough to have empty seats in Indoc classes and letters of resignation that definitely get management attention. … yes. 

[Clark Griswold]

8 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Which begs the question:  Why should airline pilots demand crazy pay when management knows they won’t/can’t strike?  It’s not like Delta pilots would have left in droves to go work for other airlines.  And it’s not like Frontier or Spirt pilots are crashing all the time either, yet they’re not making the same pay.

To keep your pilot intake healthy, look at the mandatory retirement numbers and the young and upcoming have options, the big 3 have to be all relatively similar to avoid being behind the eight ball in hiring.  

The money (good six figures) is required to attract capable people who will be willing to live 1/3 of their careers on the road, operating $100 million jets with 160+ SOBs and not routinely screw up big time.

[HeloDude]

19 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

To keep your pilot intake healthy, look at the mandatory retirement numbers and the young and upcoming have options, the big 3 have to be all relatively similar to avoid being behind the eight ball in hiring.  

The money (good six figures) is required to attract capable people who will be willing to live 1/3 of their careers on the road, operating $100 million jets with 160+ SOBs and not routinely screw up big time.

If that were the case, all the airlines, including regionals and low car carriers, would pay more/less the same…but they don’t.  

[HeloDude]

30 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

But it is like that. 
 

at the moment, American, southwest, and FedEx pilots are coming to delta. 
 

is it droves…no. 
is it enough to have empty seats in Indoc classes and letters of resignation that definitely get management attention. … yes. 

I guess in the last several years I have yet to hear of a pilot who had more than 1-2 years at a legacy leave to go to another.  What kind of numbers are we talking about who would fit that criteria?

[BFM this]

10 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

I guess in the last several years I have yet to hear of a pilot who had more than 1-2 years at a legacy leave to go to another.  What kind of numbers are we talking about who would fit that criteria?

2021, 6y FO who was active on union committees punched, AA for FDX

Rare, yes.

[HeloDude]

Just now, BFM this said:

2021, 6y FO who was active on union committees punched, AA for FDX

Rare, yes.

But if it’s rare, then it’s outside the norm and not very relevant to the overall argument.  You’ll always be able to find random one offs in just about anything in life.

So again, what incentives does management at the legacies have to increase pay since they know they’ll always have a stream of qualified applicants and virtually none of their pilots with any seniority will leave for another carrier?

[HeloDude]

21 minutes ago, gearhog said:

Of course, profitability would be the biggest factor in resistance to increase wages, but even yet, it still seems like a no brainer to attract the highest qualified and most competent pilots.

This is mostly nonsense when you look at the stats.  What’s the mishap rate of airlines on low cost carriers and regionals over the last 10 years?—my guess is it’s extremely close to the legacies.  Also, how many times do people fly on a regional when they buy a legacy ticket?—seems pretty often for a sizable portion of the population.  If regional pilots are that less safe than legacy pilots then why would legacy airline management want to tie their business to the regionals? 
 

[Clark Griswold]

If that were the case, all the airlines, including regionals and low car carriers, would pay more/less the same…but they don’t.  

Different market segments, different business models, different compensation


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[gearhog]

13 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

This is mostly nonsense when you look at the stats.  What’s the mishap rate of airlines on low cost carriers and regionals over the last 10 years?—my guess is it’s extremely close to the legacies.  Also, how many times do people fly on a regional when they buy a legacy ticket?—seems pretty often for a sizable portion of the population.  If regional pilots are that less safe than legacy pilots then why would legacy airline management want to tie their business to the regionals? 
 

If the rate of something happening is zero, then by your logic, would you say the risk is also zero?

[HeloDude]

Just now, gearhog said:

If the rate of something happening is zero, then by your logic, would you say the risk is also zero?

Sure, but I never said the risk about anything is zero.  I said the rate is extremely close to one another.  The risk of a mishap is not zero for regionals and is also not zero for the legacies.  However, I would argue the risk over the last 10 years isn’t that far different wrt pilot error causing a mishap (and when I say mishap, I’m referring to something resulting in mass casualties).  How many of us don’t fly on regionals because we know the experience of the crew is most likely less than that of a legacy?