Muscle2002 Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Read gravedigger. We do DME arcs on a daily basic at night around the boat. The only two approaches the Hornet can even shoot are TACAN and PAR. Our ILS is boat specific and worthless anywhere else. NDB hold? Really? Go hold in Marshall off a tacan fix, that's moving at 30 knots. And hit your timing +\- 10s, because the guys in front of you and behind will hit theirs and that timing is critical to everyone having a clear deck to get aboard first pass. GPS? Ha. Cool, so Navy pilots are good at Motherhood...congrats. But what about the tactical aspects of flying a fighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sky_king Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Oh boy, here we go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Stahp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkFE Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 (edited) (Hell, the Hornet doesn't have the capability to shoot a GPS approach, or even a civilian ILS- we are TACAN only) The only two approaches the Hornet can even shoot are TACAN and PAR. Our ILS is boat specific and worthless anywhere else. I heard it said somewhere (may have been on here) that the Navy buys Cadillacs with roll up windows. I understand what that means now. YGTBFSM that a Hornet isn't even capable of flying a standard ILS? The Navy is even more F'd up than I ever imagined (and I spent almost 6 years in the canoe club). I understand that a boat can't have an ILS but WTF? I would guess that at least half of a Navy fighter's landings are on a normal runway. AND...If you guys are relying on TACAN approaches at civilian airports you are about to be up Shit creek. I work for the FAA on the Tech Ops side and, as TACAN Azimuths fail, they are not getting restored (for the most part). We are restoring the DME and keeping it on the air but TAC AZ is all but history. I also understand that the Navy/Marine Mil bases will have to keep the TACANs that they own, up, but I can only imagine flying from Oceana to Miramar and having an IFE over Bumfuck and Bumfuck is socked in. Edited May 20, 2013 by HerkFE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contraildash Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 There are a ton of mil a/c that are pretty damn far behind the curve when it comes to keeping up with the changes in IFR terminal operations. With the big push to GPS/WAAS we are seeing many radio based navaids going the way of the buffalo. GPS/WAAS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetfreezer Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 There are a ton of mil a/c that are pretty damn far behind the curve when it comes to keeping up with the changes in IFR terminal operations. With the big push to GPS/WAAS we are seeing many radio based navaids going the way of the buffalo. Many tactical a/c have GPS/INS that are good enough to drop weapons... the problem is the lawyer/FAA driven certification $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Many tactical a/c have GPS/INS that are good enough to drop weapons... the problem is the lawyer/FAA driven certification $$$ Yup. Most advanced helicopter gunship on the planet.... Just got dual VOR with ILS this year. And still has an NDB. But no GPS certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 There are a ton of mil a/c that are pretty damn far behind the curve when it comes to keeping up with the changes in IFR terminal operations. With the big push to GPS/WAAS we are seeing many radio based navaids going the way of the buffalo. It is almost as if they were more concerned about spending their time/effort/money on the tactical and weapons systems (ergo "warfighting") capabilities of the aircraft instead of the latest and greatest capabilities to fly around the National Airspace System. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestik Møøse Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 ...If you guys are relying on TACAN approaches at civilian airports you are about to be up Shit creek...I can only imagine flying from Oceana to Miramar and having an IFE over Bum###### and Bum###### is socked in. I'll preemptively vouch for the Hornet pilots. They deal with this limitation virtually every time they move through the Pacific. As req'd, they'll just map the runway threshold and fly their own radar approach as low as they like; at least lower than Cat 1 ILS. Some fields like Iwakuni have radar reflectors at the threshold to help out. At a place like Wake, there's just no other option for them if the weather guessers are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy Spike Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I heard it said somewhere (may have been on here) that the Navy buys Cadillacs with roll up windows. I understand what that means now. YGTBFSM that a Hornet isn't even capable of flying a standard ILS? The Navy is even more F'd up than I ever imagined (and I spent almost 6 years in the canoe club). I understand that a boat can't have an ILS but WTF? I would guess that at least half of a Navy fighter's landings are on a normal runway. AND...If you guys are relying on TACAN approaches at civilian airports you are about to be up Shit creek. I work for the FAA on the Tech Ops side and, as TACAN Azimuths fail, they are not getting restored (for the most part). We are restoring the DME and keeping it on the air but TAC AZ is all but history. I also understand that the Navy/Marine Mil bases will have to keep the TACANs that they own, up, but I can only imagine flying from Oceana to Miramar and having an IFE over Bumfuck and Bumfuck is socked in. The boat can and does have an ILS. In fact, it's the only ILS a hornet can fly (except the Blues.. The Navy funded civilian ILS for those jets). Yes, it's almost criminal. It's constantly being asked for, and constantly being denied by leadership. Your best bet at Navy bases is a PAR/ASR. For a lot of civilian fields, the only option is to hope they have an ASR since a lot don't have TACANs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 It always sucks to watch the Navy bros miss out (and us miss out on their contribution) because they're the only ones who can't fly because the WX is below TACAN mins. Lame...I still can't believe this goes unfunded every year. How expensive could it possibly be to just put in a basic civilian ILS capability. Then again, the government probably found a way for it to cost $6.9 million/jet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkFE Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 The boat can and does have an ILS. In fact, it's the only ILS a hornet can fly (except the Blues.. The Navy funded civilian ILS for those jets). Yes, it's almost criminal. It's constantly being asked for, and constantly being denied by leadership. Your best bet at Navy bases is a PAR/ASR. For a lot of civilian fields, the only option is to hope they have an ASR since a lot don't have TACANs. Understand about the boat ILS but it is a different ILS. It just seems silly that I can rent a 152 that can fly an ILS but a US Military jet isn't equipped with this basic equipment. I'm sure the Hornet guys have it figured out with their procedures but again, if you lost an engine and the other was about to take a dump it just seems like a basic ILS would give you more options if you had to divert into BF Kansas at mins. And before anyone says it, Yes I know I can rent a 152 with a better dash than most all military jets but refer back to what Hacker said. I'm just talking a basic ILS that can get you into 99% of the fields out there that have enough pavement for a Hornet to roll out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champ Kind Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Understand about the boat ILS but it is a different ILS. It just seems silly that I can rent a 152 that can fly an ILS but a US Military jet isn't equipped with this basic equipment. I'm sure the Hornet guys have it figured out with their procedures but again, if you lost an engine and the other was about to take a dump it just seems like a basic ILS would give you more options if you had to divert into BF Kansas at mins. And before anyone says it, Yes I know I can rent a 152 with a better dash than most all military jets but refer back to what Hacker said. I'm just talking a basic ILS that can get you into 99% of the fields out there that have enough pavement for a Hornet to roll out. Isn't that what ejection seats are for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkFE Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Isn't that what ejection seats are for? You have a point there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterKing Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I'll preemptively vouch for the Hornet pilots. They deal with this limitation virtually every time they move through the Pacific. As req'd, they'll just map the runway threshold and fly their own radar approach as low as they like; at least lower than Cat 1 ILS. Some fields like Iwakuni have radar reflectors at the threshold to help out. At a place like Wake, there's just no other option for them if the weather guessers are wrong. This is an emergency procedure, when you're out of gas and have no other options. I've done it more times than I can count in VFR conditions, coming in for the over head, paint the field, designate the end of the runway (if you can break it out) and then see where it actually falls when you roll out in the groove on final. I'd say 9 times out of 10 it's not even close. Sure it may be on the field somewhere, but it's not a confidence builder that doing it in acutal IMC you're not going to hit something, or that breaking out at 200' you're going to be in a position to make a play for the runway. I can only imagine flying from Oceana to Miramar and having an IFE over Bum###### and Bum###### is socked in. It's a big planning factor for XC/ferry flying. It's more of a problem when operating from the boat. When your divert doesn't have a TACAN/PAR approach, or the weather is below mins the boat is basically blue water at that point. Like Buddy Spike said, we're constantly asking for it, and it's always at the top of the list but no one is even talking about us getting it. It's not a huge limitation to training, we can plan around it but when the weather goes down unexpectedly everyone goes into panic mode trying to recover jets in the air, with the limitations of approach having to administer a PAR to every jet vs just stringing them into an ILS chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farva Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Damn, I had no idea. What a tremendous pain in the a$$!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueypilot Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 It is almost as if they were more concerned about spending their time/effort/money on the tactical and weapons systems (ergo "warfighting") capabilities of the aircraft instead of the latest and greatest capabilities to fly around the National Airspace System. That is a valid point, but mission capabilities don't do a damn bit of good if the crews flying them can't recover because the wx is below TACAN mins and all the surrounding airfields have gone to GPS/WAAS approaches that can be flown by a Cessna 172 with a fairly inexpensive avionics mod... Come on Air Force/Navy, you can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeatherManC130 Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 That is a valid point, but mission capabilities don't do a damn bit of good if the crews flying them can't recover because the wx is below TACAN mins and all the surrounding airfields have gone to GPS/WAAS approaches that can be flown by a Cessna 172 with a fairly inexpensive avionics mod... Come on Air Force/Navy, you can do better. All we need is a better acquisitions program and we too can have the best the 80s had to offer. Money drives everything unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerkFE Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 This is an emergency procedure, when you're out of gas and have no other options. I've done it more times than I can count in VFR conditions, coming in for the over head, paint the field, designate the end of the runway (if you can break it out) and then see where it actually falls when you roll out in the groove on final. I'd say 9 times out of 10 it's not even close. Sure it may be on the field somewhere, but it's not a confidence builder that doing it in acutal IMC you're not going to hit something, or that breaking out at 200' you're going to be in a position to make a play for the runway. It's a big planning factor for XC/ferry flying. It's more of a problem when operating from the boat. When your divert doesn't have a TACAN/PAR approach, or the weather is below mins the boat is basically blue water at that point. Like Buddy Spike said, we're constantly asking for it, and it's always at the top of the list but no one is even talking about us getting it. It's not a huge limitation to training, we can plan around it but when the weather goes down unexpectedly everyone goes into panic mode trying to recover jets in the air, with the limitations of approach having to administer a PAR to every jet vs just stringing them into an ILS chain. Just seems like a stupid/silly/easily avoidable LimFac. Well, easily avoidable except for what was said about the military finding a way a make it costs 6.9 million per jet. Such a basic system that shouldn't really cost that much. It's almost embarrassing to say that a multi-million dollar aircraft doesn't have it. It is literally a Cadillac with roll up windows. Oh well, not much my retired, enlisted ass can do about it. Back to my drink...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busdriver Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 This is an emergency procedure, It seems like an easier(as in software mod only) and more accurate mod would be a self contained GPS/INS approach, while not certified it would at least give you a usable emergency approach mode that could mirror an ILS profile. The HH-60G has the capability to provide ILS like cues in the cockpit based on GPS that can take the aircraft all the way to decision altitude, or the ground if that is what's inputted. It isn't certified as we don't have an FAA certified database or RAIM, but it will work in a pinch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cane53 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Harriers are in the same boat that hornets are. I'm sure the KC-10 guys that fly CORONETs with us are familiar with the ridiculous routes we need to fly to get across the pond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe1234 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 It is almost as if they were more concerned about spending their time/effort/money on the tactical and weapons systems (ergo "warfighting") capabilities of the aircraft instead of the latest and greatest capabilities to fly around the National Airspace System. The ability to fly a GPS approach is latest and greatest cutting edge stuff now? It's like we broke the bank so much on outfitting radical new alien technology such as transponders and strobe lights that there's literally no room left in the budget without taking away from WARFIGHTING, OORAH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 The ability to fly a GPS approach is latest and greatest cutting edge stuff now? It's like we broke the bank so much on outfitting radical new alien technology such as transponders and strobe lights that there's literally no room left in the budget without taking away from WARFIGHTING, OORAH. I'm still not convinced that English is your first language. Hacker was commenting that the majority of fighter funding (what little there is for "legacy" platforms) is being spent on the WEAPON SYSTEM instead of ADMIN for the weapon system. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueypilot Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I'm still not convinced that English is your first language. Hacker was commenting that the majority of fighter funding (what little there is for "legacy" platforms) is being spent on the WEAPON SYSTEM instead of ADMIN for the weapon system. I think you're missing the point...a GPS approach capability shouldn't be considered an expensive add-on technology that takes away from mission capabilities. Rather, it should be an integrated part of the jet, since we all would like the ability to go home after a sortie and not pray that it's CAVU outside. The C-130J is no exception...great jet, great AD capability, but it cannot fly even the most basic GPS approach or RNAV departures. It still uses the same nav system that's in the H3 Herks, just in a slightly more user friendly format to avoid needing a nav. If Joe Bob can afford VNAV/WAAS capability for his bug smasher, surely DoD can figure out how to give a Viper, Mudhen or Herk the ability to recover using those same technologies, albeit a little more expensive so we can have a secure signal... Imagine deploying to a location and all you need is a basic TERPS look at an expeditionary airfield and draw up a new procedure that everyone can fly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learjetter Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Imagine deploying to a location and all you need is a basic TERPS look at an expeditionary airfield and draw up a new procedure that everyone can fly... ....and anyone can jam. Which would suck a la Die Hard 2 if you don't have both a brain, and good hands... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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