What's wrong with the Air Force?

[FourFans]

4 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

I didn't make an argument, I made an observation.  Your entire post apparently was written on a presumption of what I said, versus the words I actually said.  
 
if you're going to defend USAFA based on the critical thinking it produces in graduates, I recommend using said critical thinking during dialogue; less irony that way.  Or continue providing an emotional reply to things I didn't say, it's certainly amusing.

Interesting. True you made an observation…one that clearly stated that you observed no benefit from the academies…which implies that you see no benefit to having the academies. Perhaps I was making a stretch in seeing that implication. Ok. We’ll use your yardstick for the sake of discussion.

When did I say anything at all about critical thinking as a product?

So you must be evaluated by precisely the words you say, but you get to imply where and when you like in evaluating others arguments?

There’s a word for that style of argument: Pedantic


Can we please leaving the childish discussion style behind?

I get it, you didn’t see a benefit for having the academies. I simply provided you demonstrated benefits for our service from having the academies.

As to critical thought and a warrior mentality that others have mentioned, that’s a trickier subject. I would argue that those traits cannot actually be inculcated by an institution, only fostered. I went to the zoo. I don’t think it explicitly taught me either of those. Rather the environment provided the opportunity for both to grow and become stronger. You can’t make a coward brave or an idiot savvy, but you provide the opportunity for them to grow in those direction if they so choose. It’s a fine, but important distinction.

I think the reason we largely don’t observe those traits as stronger in academy grads is because the shitty grads get all the press, and the good ones fly under the radar until rare extraordinary events thrust them into the limelight. That makes it very difficult to judge the quality of the process without very acute observation.

I won’t judge if I was a good leader or not. That’s for those I served with to decide. I did observe that most people were surprised when they found out I was a grad though. I attribute that largely to the reputation built by asshats who let everyone know where they came from. I think the same was true of most of the other grads that I observed and thought were good. They flew under the radar, did their job well, lead well, and people were surprised when they found out they were grads.

That level of nuance is why I find it sad to see sweeping observations like: “I don’t see a benefit for the academies.” It appears to expose a lack of earnest curiosity to find truth.

Perhaps if you fail to see a benefit, it wasn’t because there is no benefit, but because you weren’t actually looking for it.

Edited January 1, 2024 by FourFans

[BashiChuni]

FF what squad were you in at the Academy?

[Lord Ratner]

5 hours ago, Danger41 said:

What I see coming out of USAFA is a bunch of cynical weirdos that seem to have gotten an accelerated education on bitching about everything, knowing the levers to pull for career advancement, and (in a sad amount of grads) a lack of warrior spirit that I can only assume isn’t inculcated at the Zoo*.

And you think ROTC is spitting out anything different? Nonsense.

 

I taught pilots from every commissioning source. They were all fucking morons with the exception of one group, the prior-enlisted. 

 

Maturity, confidence, and wisdom come from experience, and experience requires independence. The prior-e's weren't smarter. Most were actually dumber, and well aware of it, but they knew how to make decisions on their own and act in a professional, non-college non-frat non-dorm environment. That's why they got picked over the other enlisted who didn't mature as well or as much. The academy kids knew how to study in a way that made pilot training easier, but that only gets you into the jet. Good hands were agnostic of the commissioning source.

 

Once the zoomies and ROTC dorks had a little unsupervised life under their belts, the groups were mostly indistinguishable. But I suspect the academy sets the example that ROTC lives up to. I mean the programs themselves, not the cadets in them. After all, we never sent Zoomies to the ROTC programs (that I know of), but they sure did send them to us. 

[Biff_T]

15 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

The prior-e's weren't smarter. Most were actually dumber, and well aware of it,

This.

Not only am I client, I'm also the prior-e club president.  

It would be sad f it wasn't so true.  

Edited January 1, 2024 by Biff_T
Words are hard

[FourFans]

A little humility goes a long way.  Almost every mustang I knew, if not outright humble (most of them), at a bare minimum knew when and where to turn that switch on.

A solid argument can be made that all officers should be enlisted first, a la Robert Heinlein.  If nothing else it’s a solid thought experiment.

Edited January 1, 2024 by FourFans

[Danger41]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

And you think ROTC is spitting out anything different? Nonsense.

 

I taught pilots from every commissioning source. They were all fucking morons with the exception of one group, the prior-enlisted. 

 

Maturity, confidence, and wisdom come from experience, and experience requires independence. The prior-e's weren't smarter. Most were actually dumber, and well aware of it, but they knew how to make decisions on their own and act in a professional, non-college non-frat non-dorm environment. That's why they got picked over the other enlisted who didn't mature as well or as much. The academy kids knew how to study in a way that made pilot training easier, but that only gets you into the jet. Good hands were agnostic of the commissioning source.

 

Once the zoomies and ROTC dorks had a little unsupervised life under their belts, the groups were mostly indistinguishable. But I suspect the academy sets the example that ROTC lives up to. I mean the programs themselves, not the cadets in them. After all, we never sent Zoomies to the ROTC programs (that I know of), but they sure did send them to us. 

I didn’t say anything about intelligence. I don’t doubt USAFA grads rank high on that. Having said that, I accomplished commissioning 16x faster than you at OTS so as a vastly superior intelligence, you should listen to me*. 

I agree with everything you said about independence and experience. In that case, why the hell isn’t an Academy grad getting that prior to showing up? They should absolutely smoke UPT in all aspects because (as a tax payer) I want Academy graduates to be BAMF at their jobs. Pilot candidates should show up with a bunch of time in T-6’s or something else to advance them through UPT quicker**. I could care less about their ability to do advanced engineering math (systems engineering anyone?) I say this as a DO in AFMC that’s full of Test Pilots who do all this math as part of the course and then never do it again because we evolved past the slide rule. 

And the Academy absolutely sets the standard for commissioning sources. If it didn’t, shutter the place yesterday.

Regarding @FourFanscomment about prior E’s, I agree in theory but reality is very different (and I’m the son of a prior E pilot). In my career, the drastic poles of Officer quality were with the prior E’s. Fantastic or giant turds and everything in between. Off the top of my nugget, I can think of 6 O’s doing UCMJ and criminal type offenses and 3 were prior E, 1 Academy, and 2 were from classic military ROTC schools (VMI and VT). I don’t think that means anything big picture, just interesting. Maybe it proves that my 16x accelerated course didn’t spend enough time on not being a criminal turd. I got pretty good at flicker ball though.

 

*I applied to and got appointments to all 3 service academies and was really wrestling between being a pilot, SEAL, or SF officer (I even took 4 years of French to prepare). I ended up going to my state college to play football and OTS but I’d be lying if I hadn’t thought “what if” about going to an academy. If that doesn’t prove that I was a dipshit 18 year old, I don’t know what does. 
 

**The obsession with fairness and whatever at UPT is super gay. I don’t care at all about fairness in UPT assignments. If USAFA grads get tons of extra training by getting into USAFA, good on them. I only got picked up for OTS because I was a CFII so UPT went well for me. That wasn’t fair for most of my classmates that didn’t have much experience. With how much money gets poured into a cadet at USAFA, for them to show up and find out they don’t have hands is a serious waste of money.

[Guest nsplayr]

14 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Well, to be accurate, he’s an 11S, but I get your point.  Slife the knife.

HeloDude coming in defending the upstanding honor of 11Hs everywhere like...😂

 

[Guest nsplayr]

12 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Slife has (at least IMO) a long list of flaws.  I personally know a couple guys that flew with him, and, to his credit, none of them said he was a shitty pilot.

His apprentice however...

[dream big]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:36 PM, Sua Sponte said:

Stop rewarding social activism in the military. If that isn't done, then the service academies will continue down this wokeness path. Oh yeah, the dipshit former Macdill Wg/CC who wrote that "Dear White Colonels" article is at USAFA, figures.

Soon to be Brig Gen…enough said 

[FourFans]

3 hours ago, Danger41 said:

*I applied to and got appointments to all 3 service academies and was really wrestling between being a pilot, SEAL, or SF officer (I even took 4 years of French to prepare). I ended up going to my state college to play football and OTS but I’d be lying if I hadn’t thought “what if” about going to an academy. If that doesn’t prove that I was a dipshit 18 year old, I don’t know what does.

Along with the rest of the post...in all sincerity, we throw a lot of shit around here when in reality we were all highly motivated, highly excitable teenagers who wanted to go do cool shit and serve our country.  Turning 40 only helps us lose sight of that perspective.

Thank you for doing what you're doing in AFMC.  I've heard that can be a dodgy place to be in leadership.  I've also heard things like "if you can dream it, we've figured out how to do it"   Yeah, AFMC does some really cool shit.  But I digress

I'm no academy apologist.   USAFA is currently ALL KINDS of fucked up.  But the idea it represents to America's young bright and shining warriors hasn't faded a bit.  The warrior mentality will always be attracted to hardship and challenge.  It's the job of we sage warriors to make sure the institutions don't drift.  Thankfully, that impulse is not provided in the realm of internet discussion forums.

We gain a lot of perspective as we get older with one bold exception: We often fail to remember what the world looked like when we were 18 and making life impacting decisions.  

That insight should inform our vision as we get older.  Elite institutions should always be upheld regardless of how imperfect we find out that they are (and always were) as we gain the perspective of age.  America's youth should always be challenged to do difficult things for the fact that difficulty cultivates character, and in real eye-gouging, life altering combat, character is critically important.  Designing those preparatory challenges and environments is what being old is all about.  Sadly the vast majority of our sages have decided that retirement and golf is more important.  Regardless, I stand by the fact that elite American institutions still do push that button quite well, and I'll continue to challenge the vision of those who see those institutions as worthless.

Edited January 1, 2024 by FourFans

[Biff_T]

22 hours ago, Danger41 said:

I want Officers with a warrior mentality produced there, not big brain nerds

This.  Fo sho 

Edit: Or a warrior with a big fucking brain.  I'll take a few of those please.  

Edited January 1, 2024 by Biff_T
Afterthought

[Biff_T]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:55 PM, HU&W said:

www.biffsunicornfartpowereddildos.com

Yeap.  Lol.  Piss, shit and fell down reading this. 

Most Excellent! 

[Biff_T]

12 hours ago, nsplayr said:

HeloDude coming in defending the upstanding honor of 11Hs everywhere like...😂

 

@HeloDude is 100% correct.  Thank you Sir!   Biff 11H

[LookieRookie]

Was CAT-5 the OG that scraped the CV-22 on tree canopies on approach and made it go away for himself?

[DirkDiggler]

28 minutes ago, LookieRookie said:

Was CAT-5 the OG that scraped the CV-22 on tree canopies on approach and made it go away for himself?

Yes

Technically he didn’t make it go away, he was Q3’d for it by the 1st SOW/CC, then Col Slife.  Obviously it didn’t impact his career any.

[Boomer6]

Idk if it’s funnier if he was named CAT-5 before or after he knocked down all of those trees 🤔

[HuggyU2]

How did he get the Cat5 callsign?

[Danger41]

5 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Yes

Technically he didn’t make it go away, he was Q3’d for it by the 1st SOW/CC, then Col Slife.  Obviously it didn’t impact his career any.

That’s how I remembered it as well. He then said something how everyone needs a Q3 for some reason since he’d given out dozens.

[DirkDiggler]

1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

How did he get the Cat5 callsign?

Isn’t a call sign, it’s a nickname coined by some guys in the 15th when he was the DO & CC.  Came from his habit of rolling into offices in the unit, completely upending/wrecking everything and leaving nothing but destruction in his wake.  See Danger’s above comment as an example, when he was a Sq/CC he gave out 34 commander directed Q3s.

[SocialD]

8 minutes ago, DirkDiggler said:

 See Danger’s above comment as an example, when he was a Sq/CC he gave out 34 commander directed Q3s.

 

WTF is with all the command directed Q3s?  I've gathered that the heavies seem to use them as punishment, but I know we didn't have a single one in my career at my squadron.  A keg/equivalent booze and stand up in front of the squadron to brief the fuck up.  Why put so many black marks on your people, when there are better ways to get your point across?  I feel for these dudes who have to explain a Q3 in an interview when they can't say that their boss was the lead rower in the douche canoe.  

[brabus]

Seen one Q3 in 17 years of flying, and it was deserved. The heavy world blows my mind on how they wield Q3s. 

[Biff_T]

13 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

WTF is with all the command directed Q3s?  I've gathered that the heavies seem to use them as penis.....  I feel for these dudes who have to explain a Q3 in an interview when they can't say that their boss was the lead rower in the douche canoe.  

Maybe they do this so they dont bounce to the Majors as easily?  Or it at least throws a small pebble in the road........ if you're at the interview, they want you. 

Not a lot of Q3s in my dirty little end of the 11H community. Usually given if you crashed (at fault) or blew up an engine, etc...

When I was a boom (man 😢 tear), Q3s were given quite often.. in all crew positions.  I think it was all those GD left over SAC Warriors!

 

Edited January 2, 2024 by Biff_T
Spelling bee failure

[HuggyU2]

28 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

I think it was all those GD left over SAC Warriors!

Make sure you say "SAC Warriors" with some respect. 

Edited January 2, 2024 by HuggyU2

[HuggyU2]

On 12/31/2023 at 9:22 AM, ClearedHot said:

Screaming at his wife.  
... he is a sociopath lunatic and proof the system is completely broken.

Other than that, would you say he's an ok guy?

[hindsight2020]

yeah, it's one of two biggest lessons in Leadership I've learned the hard way early in my USAF career, at the hands of one of these toxic communities and their approach to Q3s. It really shaped and informed my future evaluation philosophy when I left for greener pastures and into the SEFE role in later life.

I take great personal investment in being as objective as I can, and bring that holistic training opportunity into every evaluation debrief that doesn't warrant a chat with the commander. I can't fix the past, but I can influence the future of the young guys in a productive way. I'm willing to say we do a better job at that than my predecessors in said community. As such, my experience as a SEFE tracks closer to the experience of the 11Fs on here. It's a shame that punitive/quota-driven nonsense persists in the heavy world.

Edited January 2, 2024 by hindsight2020