What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Orbit]

[Herk Driver]

What's wrong with the AF is getting sidelined on automation discussions...

Back to your regularly scheduled topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[DirtyFlightSuit]

How about the HAF/A3 acting amazed that is was neigh impossible to wash out UPT students because wing/CC keep sending them back?  Or that he thinks allowing a washout T-38 student go into T-1's.  Without getting into a T-38/T-1 what is harder pissing match, I've seen some of the best (sarcasm) that Shepard has to offer in T-38 track to heavy students, and I'm sure they would have struggled there as well.  Overall when at UPT it was apparent that leadership was more concerned with pure pilot production numbers than maintaining any kind of "quality" product, while paying lip service to holding the bar high.  The same at PIT for that matter, more PIT students showing up with questionable FEF and even more questionable ability being pushed on the UPT bases.  But it is okay wing leadership still thinks that we can increase production and not reduce quality some how.   Though to be honest our quality issue right now is not due to work load, but quality of inbound students and inability to wash them out. 

 

Hopefully this gets us back on track... The point being that big blue doesn't trust its own instructors to call a shit product (UPT or PIT Student) what it is and wash it out.   Or more likely its not a trust issue but a don't give two shits issue since bean counters would throw a fit if their numbers are upset any further.

Edited May 15, 2017 by DirtyFlightSuit

[Sprkt69]

2 hours ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

How about the HAF/A3 acting amazed that is was neigh impossible to wash out UPT students because wing/CC keep sending them back?  Or that he thinks allowing a washout T-38 student go into T-1's.  Without getting into a T-38/T-1 what is harder pissing match, I've seen some of the best (sarcasm) that Shepard has to offer in T-38 track to heavy students, and I'm sure they would have struggled there as well.  Overall when at UPT it was apparent that leadership was more concerned with pure pilot production numbers than maintaining any kind of "quality" product, while paying lip service to holding the bar high.  The same at PIT for that matter, more PIT students showing up with questionable FEF and even more questionable ability being pushed on the UPT bases.  But it is okay wing leadership still thinks that we can increase production and not reduce quality some how.   Though to be honest our quality issue right now is not due to work load, but quality of inbound students and inability to wash them out. 

 

Hopefully this gets us back on track... The point being that big blue doesn't trust its own instructors to call a shit product (UPT or PIT Student) what it is and wash it out.   Or more likely its not a trust issue but a don't give two shits issue since bean counters would throw a fit if their numbers are upset any further.

I'll just add what the ACC A3 said 7 years ago, they "will accept the risks." However, the current slides going up about the risks for cutting short B-Course said there was no risk from the change. That's your upper management working for you

[Seriously]

4 hours ago, Sprkt69 said:

I'll just add what the ACC A3 said 7 years ago, they "will accept the risks." However, the current slides going up about the risks for cutting short B-Course said there was no risk from the change. That's your upper management working for you

Ha! We had a conversation the other day at the squadron level about how much risk HHQ is buying with the reduced experience. It isn't just less experienced b-coursers these days. We also have very inexperienced IPs (technically experienced by the AFI).

[norskman]

47 minutes ago, Seriously said:

We also have very inexperienced IPs (technically experienced by the AFI).

THIS. We (HH-60s) have dudes going through IPUG with only 600 hrs in the machine, time will only tell concerning the health of my community in ~5 years. 

[HU&W]

10 hours ago, Sprkt69 said:

I'll just add what the ACC A3 said 7 years ago, they "will accept the risks." However, the current slides going up about the risks for cutting short B-Course said there was no risk from the change. That's your upper management working for you

In those seven years, how many times has ACC/A3 accepted the blame for the outcomes of accepting the risk?  How many AIB/SIB listed their risk acceptance as Causal?  Once we start seeing risk acceptance -> outcome -> blame -> updated risk decision, it'll be more than just words.

[TreeA10]

After reading rancormacs' financial debacle, I think that should be added as an example of what is wrong with the AF.  Failing to properly pay your people or making that process incredibly complicated is absolute BS.  Step one to good leadership is taking care of your people.

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, TreeA10 said:

After reading rancormacs' financial debacle, I think that should be added as an example of what is wrong with the AF.  Failing to properly pay your people or making that process incredibly complicated is absolute BS.  Step one to good leadership is taking care of your people.

Yes. 100%. 

Finance is universally terrible 

[Weezer]

Saw this post on Reddit...interesting pre-command prep strategy.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Weezer
Added picture...derp

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

On 5/12/2017 at 8:35 AM, Guardian said:

 

I think right this second you are right. Until the airlines fix the pilot shortage with drone and remotely operated options to their problem. Then we will have a pilot job crisis just like 9/11. It's coming. And if you don't think so just check out how much research is being done and funded by who. Necessity is the mother of invention. Both airlines and the Air Force need right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

 

I would be shocked if the airlines automated people carrying operations.  They could save some coins on pilot salary, but the first time one of those automated airplanes crashes and kills a couple hundred people, that company will be sued into the stone age, regardless if the droid was the reason the plane went down.  Now, FedEx, UPS, Atlas, etc may very well go automated, but not likely within most of our remaining flying years.

[war007afa]

On 5/14/2017 at 0:00 PM, Inertia17 said:

That is what I was saying earlier, most you would save is $15-20 per ticket. Just not worth the effort at this stage.

Once again, too general by me. Referring to airline operations, not taking 6-9 people on a charter flight.

You do realize an extra $15-20 per ticket TRIPLES TO QUADRUPLES the airline profit margin, right?

https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2016-12-08-01.aspx

[Inertia17]

Just now, war007afa said:

You do realize an extra $15-20 per ticket TRIPLES TO QUADRUPLES the airline profit margin, right?

https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2016-12-08-01.aspx

Yes. If they keep the market share, which they would likely need to reduce ticket prices to do with less/no crew. It is not as simple as throwing that on top of their profit margin.

[Sprkt69]

7 minutes ago, war007afa said:

You do realize an extra $15-20 per ticket TRIPLES TO QUADRUPLES the airline profit margin, right?

https://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2016-12-08-01.aspx

How much of that profit would be soaked up in new infrastructure and lawsuits?

[raimius]

10 hours ago, Weezer said:

Saw this post on Reddit...interesting pre-command prep strategy.

The first step is admitting you have a problem, right?

Crowd sourcing leadership training is surely a sign of a problem, but at least "New SQ/CC X" is trying to mitigate...

[FlyinGrunt]

On 5/15/2017 at 1:40 AM, Seriously said:

 We also have very inexperienced IPs (technically experienced by the AFI).

Confirmed for AFSOC as well.  It's getting terrifying.  They're not even experienced by the AFI.  We used to tell AC students that their AC potential was already proven, hence being there in the first place; now, we were evaluating their ability to be IPs.  It is no longer an exaggeration.  I can already point to 1 or 2 AC students that I 100% expect to see back at the schoolhouse for IPUG within a year, given the outlook.

[Seriously]

4 hours ago, raimius said:

The first step is admitting you have a problem, right?

Crowd sourcing leadership training is surely a sign of a problem, but at least "New SQ/CC X" is trying to mitigate...

I'd say it's a very good idea, actually. As long as he can separate the wheat from the chaff, I'm sure some of the responses will be valuable.  

[raimius]

1 hour ago, Seriously said:

I'd say it's a very good idea, actually. As long as he can separate the wheat from the chaff, I'm sure some of the responses will be valuable.  

Looking for feedback is wise...the AF "training" consisting of some speechifying and a blind intro, not so much.  It sounds like the new cc feels extremely unprepared.

[Toro]

15 hours ago, Weezer said:

Saw this post on Reddit...interesting pre-command prep strategy.

It's a decent idea, but a Reddit blast won't answer what's needed at your unit.  One of my jobs at my last assignment was Wg/DS, where I had around 20 folks (mostly enlisted) assigned to me.  A couple days after I took over, I pulled every single one of those people into my office individually for a few minutes to chat about them and to ask questions similar to that Reddit post.  I got some pretty damn good ideas from one and two-stripers who had been in the office longer than I had been on the base, but they had never thought to offer them up.  After our talk, an A1C told me that not only had she never been in the DS office, but the two previous DSs hadn't so much more to her than "Hello" and "Good Bye" on a daily basis.  

That is the problem with leadership.  At least the author of the Reddit post is making an effort to look down in the trenches rather than up the chain of command.

[Weezer]

1 hour ago, raimius said:

Looking for feedback is wise...the AF "training" consisting of some speechifying and a blind intro, not so much.  It sounds like the new cc feels extremely unprepared.

What stuck out to me wasn't her strategy...getting 360-degree feedback is great (although I'm not sure about the sample that reddit provides).  What stuck out to me was that she did feel unprepared both personally, and, by her statement regarding "a week of training and some speechifying...", by the Air Force.  Whereas other services (and some communities within the AF) spend 10-15 years preparing and grooming someone for command, that does not seem to be the case with this particular individual.  I find the whole thing interesting and revealing.

[pawnman]

19 hours ago, raimius said:

The first step is admitting you have a problem, right?

Crowd sourcing leadership training is surely a sign of a problem, but at least "New SQ/CC X" is trying to mitigate...

I concur.  If you ever want to get the unfiltered feedback of your front line folks, an anonymous and retribution-free site like Reddit is the place to do it.  Sure, there will be some bad answers and a lot of jokes...but how many of us lament that our senior leadership doesn't understand our problems?  At least this SQ/CC is attempting to understand what the junior guys int he squadron actually want, rather than what the SNCOs and other officers have told them to say when the new SQ/CC comes in.

[17D_guy]

On 5/16/2017 at 7:59 AM, Weezer said:

 Whereas other services (and some communities within the AF) spend 10-15 years preparing and grooming someone for command, that does not seem to be the case with this particular individual. 

Having run around the higher levels of a Sq a few times now, this is the feeling I get from most 1st time CC's in Comm/Cyber.  I don't know how you fliers do it, but unless our O's dig into the many areas of a Sq (finance, civ relations, first shirt issues, etc.) we get no experience from it.  My last boss was great, and brought me into a lot of the CC's issues...but I'd say that was the exception.

The MAJCOM Sq/CC courses are a joke.  Last boss said it was basically "Call the Command Post if there's a suicide/rape/assault/etc." with little else about dealing with being a commander, working with other commanders, etc.

Can you give an example of this grooming/preparing?

[RTB]

1 hour ago, 17D_guy said:

Can you give an example of this grooming/preparing?

In the Army, a 22 year old 1 or 2Lt is a platoon leader in command of 30-50 people.  As a 26 year old Capt he/she is a Company Commander leading 100-200 people.  Then later, after lots of experience already leading, they get Battalion Command as an O-5.  So when an Air Force officer gets their first true command experience as an O-4/5, an Army or Marine counterpart has had multiple command tours by that time.  They get experience as commanders at a very early age dealing with all the associated issues but in gradually increasing levels of responsibility.  

 

[panchbarnes]

In the AF, you are fit for command when you have demonstrated the ability to excel at Exec duties. 

I wished this was sarcasm...

[17D_guy]

37 minutes ago, RTB said:

In the Army..

 

Reading fail on my part, I thought someone was saying the AF did this and I was generally wondering which community.