What's wrong with the Air Force?

[Fuzz]

12 hours ago, Napoleon_Tanerite said:

Words...

So nothing is going to change, hopefully they'll get serious soon...

[MechGov]

if i were him first thing i'd do is call the vance OG and ask him what the hell does he think his dry policy is going to achieve

Especially since he used to be the wing king there....

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/108596/lieutenant-general-mark-c-nowland/


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[Guest]

15 hours ago, Napoleon_Tanerite said:

Yup.  Most interesting meeting I've ever been in that didn't involve discussion about blowing shit up.  Refreshing to see a 3 button getting basically yelled at by a room full of crusty O-3s and O-4s.  Some big takeaways:

1.  He came into the meeting incredibly insulated from what is going on.  His disconnect from reality was no fault of his own, but very clear.  For example, he couldn't wrap his head around guys not wanting to be "developed" by way of ACSC and other PME.  Also was unaware of some of the buffoonery going on such as Vance being dry, the elimination of additional duties memo being largely ignored, and the perception that the AF is at best incompetent in the way it handles people, and at worst malicious.  It was obvious that the O-4s he is surrounded are the pickle shining types would would rather die than tell the boss bad news.  We didn't have that problem, and he wasn't sure how to react.

2.  "There is a plan in the work, trust us".  Supposedly there is a 28 point plan of some kind floating around to address the retention issue.  See point 1 for his reaction to our skepticism of it.

3.  He doesn't even know that he is fed a steady diet of bullshit.  He told a story of a great base visit he went on, and was dismissive when told to take everything he sees on a base visit with the biggest grain of salt he can fit on the jet he rode in on.  He didn't realize that whenever guys like him show up, guys like the ones in that room get stuffed in a closet.

4.  Stop loss is off the table.  CSAF realizes that even IF they could get a stop loss approved (unlikely) it will permanently break any chance they have at retention.  They'd get a temporary bump from locking guys down, but they know that as soon as that lockdown inevitably ends, EVERYONE leaves, not just the people who were on the fence before.

So maybe we opened his eyes, but even if we did, points 1 and 3 above kinda indicate that at best he will be one more voice yelling at the brick wall.  The AF is chronically averse to making the kind of changes necessary to retain pilots, and will continue to hemorrhage talent.

Thank for the feed back, I just don't believe these management types when they say things like #3. Are we really to believe that he is so insulated that he is clueless to the real AF.  

I have little hope left in the same guys who created the problem are going to fix the problem. 

 

But hey I sincerely look forward to their "28 point plan", everybody deserves a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, fuuck it give them all the chances! 

 

[Bergman]

19 hours ago, 1111 said:

Thank for the feed back, I just don't believe these management types when they say things like #3. Are we really to believe that he is so insulated that he is clueless to the real AF.  

I have little hope left in the same guys who created the problem are going to fix the problem. 

But hey I sincerely look forward to their "28 point plan", everybody deserves a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, fuuck it give them all the chances! 

 

It's so weird...I remember what the Air Force was like and how people operated in the squadron say 10-12 years ago.  Why is it that General officers can't seem to remember???  How do they lose touch that fast?  It's not like they've been out of the AF for 50 years and suddenly come back in.

Agreed that there is little hope for fixing this, absent a wholesale firing or an actual dramatic shift in policy/actions at the SecAF or CSAF levels.

Having said that, give them their 28 chances.  But I'd be damned sure not to let other chances/opportunities pass by while waiting for Big Blue to unfuck this.  It'll take half a career.  In that time a person could be half way up a seniority list somewhere...

Edited May 12, 2017 by Bergman
There vs their typo

[HuggyU2]

So, let's say none of this gets fixed, and the problems continue at their current pace.

Your opinions:  what will the AF look like in 5 years? 

[ClearedHot]

It will be ugly but not in the ways we assume, some people are staying and they will most certainly be overworked.  This will be yet another opportunity for non-pilots to rise to positions of influence (Space/Cyber/Intel), and we will see a further erosion of morale and our core competencies of employing airpower as they seek to further agendas and secure tribal position and power.  I fear this will ultimately result in a non-warrior leading the USAF or a GCC. 

Plans are in motion to dramatically increase the UPT pipeline so we will likely see an Air Force with a glut of younger far less experienced aviators and in IMHO that will manifest itself in a much higher accident rate.  Also, look for increased incidents of battlefield "mistakes" and fratricide.

If there is a major conflict in the middle of this...scholars will write books for a 100 years on the death of a once great power.

[matmacwc]

30 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

If there is a major conflict in the middle of this...scholars will write books for a 100 years on the death of a once great power.

Maybe thats the plan.

[DirtyFlightSuit]

I think the largest threat here is the general attitude of our up and coming service members.  The majority of my students now have already started planning on their exit from the Air Force, to include FAIPs looking to bail at the earliest opportunity.  I try (in vain) to explain to them while its great to keep their options open it won't help them much getting so Jaded with so much ADSC remaining to serve.   It was not a whole lot better at UPT with students already choosing assignments based on how attractive it would make them for Airline jobs later in life, while not a bad thing to think about it was a much higher focus than I've ever seen.

General cynicism will reign supreme and even good leaders/commanders are going to face a unenviable position.  HAF/A3 seems to think our goal in life should be to want to be a flying squadron commander, and while maybe at one time I thought that would be cool, the way it is now it sounds about as inviting as a dick punch.   

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

I think the largest threat here is the general attitude of our up and coming service members.  The majority of my students now have already started planning on their exit from the Air Force, to include FAIPs looking to bail at the earliest opportunity.  I try (in vain) to explain to them while its great to keep their options open it won't help them much getting so Jaded with so much ADSC remaining to serve.   It was not a whole lot better at UPT with students already choosing assignments based on how attractive it would make them for Airline jobs later in life, while not a bad thing to think about it was a much higher focus than I've ever seen.

General cynicism will reign supreme and even good leaders/commanders are going to face a unenviable position.  HAF/A3 seems to think our goal in life should be to want to be a flying squadron commander, and while maybe at one time I thought that would be cool, the way it is now it sounds about as inviting as a dick punch.   

That "higher focus" did not occur overnight.It occurred over several years of telling the mish hackers, the guy and gal who would sell pieces of their soul to get the job done in the air that they can be easily replaced, flying is not essential to being a leader in this organization, we want managers not leaders and that integrity applies to only the individual but not the organization (e.g. Let us put the idea of stop loss out there to see if anybody notices and if they do we ll just say jk)

But there is this thing called the economy and as Gearpig said above AF is finding out that pilots are a one helluva principled bunch!

[matmacwc]

2 hours ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

I think the largest threat here is the general attitude of our up and coming service members.  The majority of my students now have already started planning on their exit from the Air Force, to include FAIPs looking to bail at the earliest opportunity.  I try (in vain) to explain to them while its great to keep their options open it won't help them much getting so Jaded with so much ADSC remaining to serve.   It was not a whole lot better at UPT with students already choosing assignments based on how attractive it would make them for Airline jobs later in life, while not a bad thing to think about it was a much higher focus than I've ever seen.

I was in pilot training in 2000, it was exactly the same.  Then some goat fuckers flew airplanes into buildings.

[Clark Griswold]

7 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

So, let's say none of this gets fixed, and the problems continue at their current pace.

Your opinions:  what will the AF look like in 5 years? 

If they do nothing, a dwindling number of AD and faster dwindling number of ARC members on Involuntary Mobilization orders.  

The spiral will wrap up tighter and tighter.

[brickhistory]

3 hours ago, 1111 said:

 

But there is this thing called the economy and as Gearpig said above AF is finding out that pilots are a one helluva principled bunch!

Not sure if "principled" is the right word.  If it is, I am missing your point.

If you meant pilots have an expensive skillset that has a real market value today, I'm with you.

But remind me what adorns most of the GOs' upper left side of their uniforms in the Air Force, including, especially, the ultimate leadership in the USAF?  So no, I don't think "principled" is the correct word choice.

[YoungnDumb]

Can't wait for their plan to increase UPT output...

[bb17]

2 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

If they do nothing, a dwindling number of AD and faster dwindling number of ARC members on Involuntary Mobilization orders.  

The spiral will wrap up tighter and tighter.

What do you think the endgame is here? It seems like things are on a steep downward trajectory and I think a certain number of candidates who do their homework here and elsewhere will decide not to subject themselves to it which will only accelerate the issue. I'd like to remain optimistic (naive?) that things could work themselves out in a few years. 

On a related note, it would be nice if the AF would pay out my travel voucher from 14 months ago! 

Edited May 12, 2017 by bb17

[Clark Griswold]

27 minutes ago, bb17 said:

What do you think the endgame is here? It seems like things are on a steep downward trajectory and I think a certain number of candidates who do their homework here and elsewhere will decide not to subject themselves to it which will only accelerate the issue. I'd like to remain optimistic (naive?) that things could work themselves out in a few years. 

On a related note, it would be nice if the AF would pay out my travel voucher from 14 months ago! 

Don't think they have an endgame in mind, that is a plan to fundamentally change the AF.  My two cents, I think they believe this is just a normal rough patch for the AF to play thru. 

No, you're not naive to be optimistic but be realistic, this CSAF and the MAJCOM/CCs are not revolutionaries nor particularly reform minded from what I have observed.  At best they are tinkering at the edges, it will take a boss willing to fire his/her friends to get movement at the top to enable reform. 

You can want to fix an organization but unless you are willing to remove those in leadership that will filter, dilute and stymie you efforts, you probably won't change anything.

Do good work, argue for common sense, take advantage of opportunities, roll with the times and never drink the kool-aid - from the perspective of one individual.

[17D_guy]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

it will take a boss willing to fire his/her friends to get movement at the top to enable reform. 

AHAHAHAHA....We can't even get them to fire terrible Group Commanders and up.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, brickhistory said:

Not sure if "principled" is the right word.  If it is, I am missing your point.

If you meant pilots have an expensive skillset that has a real market value today, I'm with you.

But remind me what adorns most of the GOs' upper left side of their uniforms in the Air Force, including, especially, the ultimate leadership in the USAF?  So no, I don't think "principled" is the correct word choice.

Hey bro not trying to pick a word fight! I will remove the offending device.

 

the economy is great for pilots they have many choices and as they come up on the decision point to leave or stay they have more wiggle room. Thus, it is easier to walk with our feet and talk about the lack of integrity. Would it be the same if the economy sucked for us, I doubt it.

 

what do you think?

[dream big]

12 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

It will be ugly but not in the ways we assume, some people are staying and they will most certainly be overworked.  This will be yet another opportunity for non-pilots to rise to positions of influence (Space/Cyber/Intel), and we will see a further erosion of morale and our core competencies of employing airpower as they seek to further agendas and secure tribal position and power.  I fear this will ultimately result in a non-warrior leading the USAF or a GCC. 

Plans are in motion to dramatically increase the UPT pipeline so we will likely see an Air Force with a glut of younger far less experienced aviators and in IMHO that will manifest itself in a much higher accident rate.  Also, look for increased incidents of battlefield "mistakes" and fratricide.

If there is a major conflict in the middle of this...scholars will write books for a 100 years on the death of a once great power.

"If there is a major conflict...." --> this right here is my biggest fear with all of the problems surrounding the AF.  

[ViperStud]

9 minutes ago, dream big said:

"If there is a major conflict...." --> this right here is my biggest fear with all of the problems surrounding the AF.  

Fortunately, I think we actually have this part covered. If a meaningful shooting match broke out, so many of the experienced bros would drop Mil Leave and be chomping at the bit to kill sh!theads for the USA.  I know I would.

I'm not talking about another "Operation Deny Christmas" that our inept politicians seem to seek out, but if a real shooting match happened, commercial travel would take a crap and the bros would get shit done. For this reason, I think the steady-state "peacetime" ops of the AF are actually the more complicated challenge. 

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, ViperStud said:

Fortunately, I think we actually have this part covered. If a meaningful shooting match broke out, so many of the experienced bros would drop Mil Leave and be chomping at the bit to kill sh!theads for the USA.  I know I would.

I'd still go back and fly the U-2, in peacetime.  

Unfortunately, if things escalated (wartime) to the point where they needed me back even more, I have zero faith that the fucking AFPC bureaucracy could make it happen... even if the squadron was BEGGING for pilots.   Honestly, AFPC simply couldn't get through the mountains of paperwork and levels of coordination.  You'd be back in your Viper and I'd be back in the Deuce after it was all said and done.  

I think Maj Gen Poore is still the AFPC/CC.  If so, she and the Executive Director need to be thrown out personally by Gen Goldfein.  AFPC has failed, and how they do business needs to be re-thought.   

edit:  I looked and the E.D. is fairly new, so I'd give her another 9 months to prove her worth before I shitcanned her.  

Edited May 12, 2017 by HuggyU2

[Clark Griswold]

6 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

AHAHAHAHA....We can't even get them to fire terrible Group Commanders and up.

Yup - that's why I am realistic about the chance of meaningful reform...

[brickhistory]

8 hours ago, 1111 said:

Hey bro not trying to pick a word fight! I will remove the offending device.

 

the economy is great for pilots they have many choices and as they come up on the decision point to leave or stay they have more wiggle room. Thus, it is easier to walk with our feet and talk about the lack of integrity. Would it be the same if the economy sucked for us, I doubt it.

 

what do you think?

We're good.  I just wasn't getting "principled" nor was I offended.

I believe we are on the same page.  If Big Blue keeps the stupidity set to 11, those of options will bail.

[Guardian]

the economy is great for pilots they have many choices and as they come up on the decision point to leave or stay they have more wiggle room.
 
what do you think?

I think right this second you are right. Until the airlines fix the pilot shortage with drone and remotely operated options to their problem. Then we will have a pilot job crisis just like 9/11. It's coming. And if you don't think so just check out how much research is being done and funded by who. Necessity is the mother of invention. Both airlines and the Air Force need right now.


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[tac airlifter]

2 minutes ago, Guardian said:

I think right this second you are right. Until the airlines fix the pilot shortage with drone and remotely operated options to their problem. ...... It's coming. 

 

I totally disagree, I don't think RPA airline ops are anywhere feasible within the next 30 years.  We still have humans with flashlights backing airliners out of parking, driving baggage carts and pushing drink carts down the aisle. 

[jazzdude]

I totally disagree, I don't think RPA airline ops are anywhere feasible within the next 30 years.  We still have humans with flashlights backing airliners out of parking, driving baggage carts and pushing drink carts down the aisle. 

I think the bigger near term danger would single pilot ops in the airlines, although that would still involve a significant investment in modernizing airliners. However, as technology and safety systems continue to improve, first officers will eventually go the way of the navigator/flight engineer/radio operator. The question is how long will it take to get to that point.