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The Bible doesn't "allow" any of the things you listed. You are referring to information in the Old Testament in which there were societies that practiced some (but not all) of the things you listed. Just because an event in the Bible has those types of behaviors in it, doesn't mean the Bible is condoning such behavior. Often the Old Testament is used as a contrast to what occurred after Christ was born, walked among us and died sacrificially for us. In the Old Testament, when someone sinned, they were required to atone for those sins by sacrificing an animal in the form of a burnt offering to God. The animal symbolically took on the sins of the person. The Bible contrasts such ancient practices with God's ultimate and final decision to deal with our sins by sending his Son to symbolically take on all our sins and die for us. I won't argue that many men and women have misused and misinterpreted the information in the Bible over the centuries and caused great suffering and pain. That's on them and not due to some defect in the Bible or it's real teachings. Try actually reading it.

Some of y'all need some perspective. Next time you are over in the Stan, please feel free to swing by the PEDRO pad and clean the blood out of the back of our helicopters. I don't care if the patients in the back of my bird (dying, missing limbs, dead) are gay, straight, tuck their junk back and cluck like a chicken...they deserve equal rights. Their partners deserve equal rights if they are are one of the unlucky who don't make it back home. IEDs do not discriminate...why should we?

This thread is gay.

Sorry for the delayed response. I derive my sense of absolute right and wrong from the idea that I want to leave this planet better than when I showed up. I want everyone to be happy doing their own thing as long as it doesn't harm others. I don't do this because I feel like if I don't I'm not gunna get into heaven, I do it because I learned in kindergarten not to hurt people, lie, steal, or be an asshole, I learned it in baseball, team work, competitiveness with rules, working towards a common goal. I didn't learn it from the bible. I learned it from my parents who didn't push religion on me. I'm a good person because I want this place to not suck. I believe in baseball.

Well, guess what happened to me this evening... I was buying a Savage 64 BTV target rifle from a buddy of mine, and we agreed to meet at a gas station that's about halfway between where we live and where we've done similar transactions before. He handed me the rifle and I briefly pointed it up at a billboard to check the scope out. Ten minutes later a police car rolled up and the officer got out and asked what was going on. We told him we were conducting a private gun sale, and he said there was a report of someone shooting at the billboard. I explained that I was just checking out the scope and that the rifle was unloaded. I also asked if he wanted to see ID. He replied no, he just had to check out what was really going on, and wished us a good evening and left. No drama, no confrontation, no being belligerent on our part or the officer's. It was a reasonable, respectful encounter that lasted less than 15 seconds. We understood he had to find out what was going on, and there was no reason for us to be hostile as we weren't doing anything wrong, and we were treated respectfully. Were our "rights" being violated by our being asked what was going on? No. Could we have been assholes towards the cop? Sure. Would that have helped resolve matters any? No. Do you think the next individuals with a rifle that the officer encounters will get treated the same way? Probably. Had we been jerks would they? Probably not. Sorry I didn't get video for YouTube, but I would not be surprised that similar occurrences happen 99.69% of the time and never get posted on the Internet. It all boils down to the Golden Rule, treat others like you would like to be treated, and most times that is what will happen. I don't buy into all this police conspiracies that PYB and others claim is a common occurrence. I know not all cops are good at their jobs, but I also know it is a tough profession and in some ways tougher than serving in the military. I am sure PYB will believe all of the above is made up, because people like him don't believe anything except what those voices in their heads are telling them; but I can assure you that it did and I am sure similar encounters occur every day. Unfortunately, it is jackasses like him that cause some cops to be less-than-respectful to others; but I can tell you that the vast majority of police officers I know are honest, hard-working professionals and have my utmost respect. But as the old saying goes, play stupid games, win stupid prizes; which is exactly the kind of games PYB is playing. One day he will win his "stupid" prize, and he'll deserve every inch of it!

Yup I'll go to the pentagon for a staff tour sign me up. Let me know how to route my ADP

If offending people for offering dissenting opinions and explanations with rational reasoning is cause for not posting anymore, 95% of us wouldn't be here anymore. If we lose that capability to give and receive honest feedback, we start debriefing like bottom tier air forces and lots of us will die when we get into a real war. The guys flying the line need the insight and the logic behind decisions that higher ups like you offer just as much as the higher ups need honest feedback from the line pilots. Even if we disagree with it, it is far better to have a clue as to why things are happening. Is my sarcasm detector broken? This is 180 out from everything I've heard.

Really, define human rights, I know of only two places; the bible and/or the constitution,,do you have another esoteric place we should reference or follow? I have heard alot of "rights" in the media these days, none of them rights.....labor/marriage/immigration/health care.....there may be laws, but I haven't seen any of them in the constitution. I have the right to believe you are wrong for sure.

Aaaannnddd we've come full circle.

Lets just get rid of active duty period.

Lol, have you not read anything General Chan has been saying? They should be thrilled that they get to wear a flight suit and serve... Okay back to work on spreadsheets for my ground deployment...

On second thought looks like we can BRAC the rest of our nuke bases.

AFSOC wants the money and thats it.

well it's obvious it came from a non-mil aircraft. But I'll still blame the FEs, Gunners and Copilots.

Add another one destined for the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico... A Savage 64 BTV with a nice BSA 3-9-40 scope with Leupold rings. The bipod didn't come with it, but those are easy to find... Bought it from the same buddy who sold me the stainless Marlin 60 that is resting peacefully with the fishes! Cheers! M2

No it isn't. One involves consenting adults the other does not, why is that so hard to understand? I'll try one last time, if my thing is to tie up my chick, I'll seek out a chick that likes to be tied up, that's consent. If another dudes thing is little boys, that's rape. I can accept the first, never would I accept the second. This is a bit of a tangent, but there should be no financial benefits to being married, the government should tax individuals end of story. As to adoption, if you seriously believe a child would be better off not being adopted and staying in the system than being adopted by a stable gay couple (ignoring the sperm bank option for the lesbians, which fucks up your argument) I don't know what to say to you. Let me ask you this: Say a Muslim (insert any group who's morals you disagree with) couple wants to adopt, should the government also restrict them from adopting? What if the only tenant of Christianity (in your view) that a gay couple breaks is sodomy, otherwise they are model Christians, this is such a big sin that they need to be lumped in with pedophiles? Seriously?

As I have grown to disect and question my faith, it dawned on me that outside my formal Catholic upbrining, the fundamental driver to my behavior is and continues to be based on the premise of reciprocity. This commonly gets refered to as the Golden Rule. Expanding that notion to humanity at large, it stands rather clearly then that the combination of: 1)fear-of-harm/pain/untimely-death at the hands of other humans, and 2) the self-initiated desire to self-actualize (unexplainable inherent sense of purpose) ..leads one to opt for and favor co-existing behavior in society. Religion is therefore a man-made social custom to formalize that inherent desire to thrive in an environment where absent those precepts of behavior, one would die in an untimely manner at the hands of a stronger neighbor. We're literally proposing coexistence in order to not die at each other's hands so that we get to achieve our sense of purspose, which drives us to think, question, breathe and feel. I do believe in an invisible entity in the sky from the perspective of the relative uniqueness of our condition in a world where no other peer species exist to interact with us at the self-actualizing level. Condition which I haven't witnessed in animals nor those pesky UFOs that never stick around long enough to make themselves indisputable, is what cements my belief in the metaphysical. Other than that, to each their own. I certainly will not use my Christianity to yoke or otherwise prosletize others. Which makes me a pretty bad Christian I suppose...but at the onset I admitted I was a cafeteria catholic so I'm good in my own skin. I do think the more orthodox/literal interpreters of our religious precepts make us Believers look a bit crazy and non-coexistent in the bigger scheme. I wish they weren't the formative voices of the Faith by imposition. In the end I fall back to (1) and (2) for my own morality. That seems to be agreeable to atheists, and all but the most intolerant Believers, alike. The fucked up thing is, this philosophical approach to religion is more likely to piss off the aforementioned Christians than the Atheists...

In order to make that statement you'd have to argue that homosexuality is a choice, not innate. I, most logical people, along with the majority of researchers agree that it is a innate trait. Bu.. wha.. you just said... Huh? So they're born with it, again, using your logic god created them this way and put them on an express lane to damnation, but it's choice they make? Why would he decide to throw such a monkey wrench into his "perfect plan," I thought he loved all of us and wanted to save us? Do you realize that you're asking someone to not be themselves, to not do what is natural to them in order to conform to your ideals? Sorry hoss, but your definition of what's right and wrong is for you and your family to follow, don't apply your standards to others then tell them they're wrong. But then again, that's the foundation of religion, "be like me or burn in hell." I see it all the time here in Taiwan, the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses and other evangelical Christians, all coming over in order to alter the beliefs of a 5,000 year old society, delivering a message that essentially informs the Taiwanese that they've been doing it wrong the whole damn time! It's so nice and generous of the them to come over and correct them so they too have the chance to conform and be "saved." Oh, wait....

Not to jump to far in and sling sh*t but Pentagon???! Did I miss something?? So you just raise your hand and *poof* the staff fairy comes down and bestows a "sweet" staff gig?! I'm positive that is not even close to aligning with AFPC's plans for my pilot ass. I was told the WG needs IP's and experience... no staff for you... (I'm not complaining... just sayin') I'm positive I'm not unique in the pilot world... My observation is staff is usually saved up for the "pretty people" and generally not for the professional USAF pilot. If I'm way off base please tell me to F off and I'll happily go back to eating popcorn and watch this Sh*t show continue...

Pentagon? Last time I checked that's staff, and we barely have staff billets for school selects much less anyone else... And on another note, 11M are filling up the AFGSC staff and STRATCOM which needs way more 11B rep, so it's killing our community when the wrong people are at the top inputing their 2 cents driving decisions that make no sense (watching it happen from the cubicle next-door). It's crazy that the 'bomber' staff is filled with tanker/herc/mobility dudes...i guess AMC staff must be filled with helos dudes and the ACC staff is filled with monkeys.

Actually humans are animals. The human's phylum is Chordata (vertebrate). The human's class in mammalia, its order is primate (the same as apes). The Human's sub-family is Homininae. It's tribe is Hominini. It's genus is Homo and it's specie is scientifically named Homo Sapiens. Incidently, we haven't evolved to the point were it is well understood or accepted by quite a few Homo Sapiens. This icon is not specific to any animal but applies to almost all animals regardless of sexual persuasion.

I think it's sad that you need the threat of "eternal damnation" to be a decent guy. Religion is inherently selfish..."I have to do good so I can get rewarded." I bet a lot less people would participate if there was no carrot on the end of a stick. I know a lot of guys who do shitty stuff Mon-Sat that justify it by confessing and throwing a few bucks in the pot on Sundays. Edit: I was wondering when we were gonna have a good ol' fashioned religion debate on here...new thread anyone?

One year ago today.....

Big Blue's already been through this drill, and has recategorized as many 11F billets (to 11G, 16G, etc.) as it thought it reasonably could, yet there still aren't enough 11Fs to go around--and BTW, they ain't enough 11S or 11H types either . . . leading to 11Ms filling all manner of billets in ACC, AFSOC, COCOM staffs, etc . . . not to mention MC-12 flying billets, that 11Fs should be filling. Problem is that the "Red Line"--the number of 11Ms Big Blue figures it needs by year group (need lots of Lts & Capts, fewer Majs, even fewer Lt Cols, etc.) doesn't take into account all the added requirements foisted on us. Combine the fact that Big Blue's Wing and below manning models suck (pilots fill Wing/Group/Sq staff jobs that could/should be filled by civilians if funding were provided to do so) with a system that fails to account for the "in lieu of" requirements that 11Ms are filling . . . and 11M units get their nuts crushed while all the charts in the Pentagon show that 11Ms are "overmanned." The refusal to recognize this reality and account for it in Air Force manning models results in all manner of misguided decisions, with this year's ARP just being the latest example. Make the best decisions you can, knowing that the crappy policies will continue until HAF/A1 gets a clue.

And? Open carrying to provoke an encounter with cops so you can make a video is one thing. Video taping an encounter with cops because of open carrying is an entirely different one. Go spend a couple hours on youtube watching how people who open carry are treated by cops and you'll quickly understand why videos are an absolute necessity. In other news today I present your government looking out for you (and animals) http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/29/hare-brained-usda-reportedly-orders-childrens-magician-to-produce-disaster-plan-for-his-rabbit/

First off... -852 lame points for "liking" your own post! Your Grand Forks suggestion has to be one of your stupidest suggestions to date and shows that you have zero clue as to how a pilot thinks. You take a guy who probably wanted to be a pilot since he was 5 yrs old, worked his ass off through high school to pay for flying lessons to get his PPL (that would be private pilots license for you A1 number crunchers), spent a year of his life working his ass off in UPT with the hopes of selecting the aircraft that he wants to fly (signing a 10 yr ADSC to fly it), spends anywhere from 200-300 days a year on the road because geniuses like you can tell him his Squadron is overmanned with pilots and even cuts those manning numbers... and when the guys tell you that the theory vs the reality of your numbers is wrong... "Well you could just move to Grand Forks and fly a remote control airplane instead!" Then you are actually clueless enough to say that 1) these guys think this is a good deal and 2) there are people in this or any community that are lining up to take your offer... and should be grateful with hat in hand for your fantastic opportunity. My complaint about the bonus is that the attitude of number crunching non-pilot ass hats in San Antonio and DC is that if we throw money at the problem it will go away and you base this thought on irrelevant "historical data" without for even a second looking more than one assignment cycle into the future or looking at external factors. This mindset in the corporate world would get all of you fired on a daily basis... including the GOs! As far as me being 100% about myself and being jaded? Tell me something... How is the view from the cheap seats??? You come on here and manage to dodge every question about stats that come your way from anywhere other than your soda straw A1 fabricated numbers about Squadrons and manning... you glorify the insane "advancement by box checking" process (one that you are clearly a product of) while ignoring the 99% of those on here saying that there is no actual leadership in leadership positions and tell anyone who disagrees with your ideas that they should do us all a favor and just quit... you look at the VSP disaster from a few years ago and the conclusion you draw is that the AF should have just come out and admitted they screwed up, but completely ignore the fact and reality that the overwhelming majority of all who applied for VSP were pilots! Yeah, I'll bet traffic in DC is a real bitch and the Metro in the summer gets pretty uncomfortable on your way home to the wife and kids. Let me suggest this to you... for the enlightenment of all of us jaded pilots who only care about themselves, why don't you tell all of us your background? Let us know how well you relate to us and that you share our experiences over the past 11+ years since 9/11. Unless those experiences involve spending 200+ days on the road every year in some shit hole that ends in Stan or in Iraq, endless stories from buds hoping their leave doesn't get cancelled so they can go visit their kids who just moved 1000 miles away with the ex-wife because we are "surging" again, or the feeling of nausea every time the phone rings and the caller ID says "######ing Sq Scheduler" because you know you'll need to explain to your kids why Daddy has to go away again... If you can't relate to that then before you tell someone who has lived that for the past 11+ years they should remember "service before self" maybe you should take a step back and take the opportunity to just STFU! Guess what Chang... we aren't all warriors no matter what they told you during what sounds like years that you spent sitting in Polifka or at some Commanders Call on a Staff tour! Every last one of us here in this forum is proud to put on a uniform each day to serve our country and is more than willing to strap into the seat and crank the engines at a moments notice... no matter what is waiting to greet us at our destination! We will miss the birthdays, anniversaries, Holidays, baseball games, dance recitals and first steps because that is what we signed up to do. What we don't need is some ass clown who sits in a cubical and runs selective numbers to tell us that, even though he doesn't do it himself, that we should be "grateful" to be doing it and if we don't like it we can just leave. So before you give anyone else the lecture on here about being selfish and jaded, please let us all know how many combat hours you have logged and how many years you sat at the scheduling desk at McChord, McConnell or Shaw during our great period of "overmanned pilots"! Otherwise... go troll somewhere else.

Stop this. You're criticizing people for not having positive selfless attitudes on one hand, and then speaking matter of factly about cold hard manning numbers using pure logic without a shred of empathy. If you're dedicated to the bottom line and have no problem crushing livelihoods as a result of reality and manning numbers, that's fine, but you are a hypocrite of the highest order when you bring this bullshit hyperbole about "having the right attitude" into the conversation. You're a personnel guy? Fine, talk about the nuts and bolts since that's your area of expertise. But you are an absolutely fucking horrible mentor. Just.....stop.

LOL

GC, Someone else mentioned here that serving in the USAF must now be treated simply as a JOB. It is so sad, because the vast majority of every single one of us joined for such patriotic reasons that had little to do with self-serving interests. To this day, aside from being a number and being treated as such, I take exceptional pride in wearing the uniform and serving my country. Unfortunately, like many, that obligation is towards my country and not my employer. At a time where so few a expected to do so much, you would think leadership would do more than treat everyone as a number, and try to fix their problems by throwing some peanuts and cash at them when morale or retention is poor. Leadership is so much more than that at every fundamental level. I have had an amazing time doing things I am so proud of in the USAF. I've been a fighter pilot, a special ops pilot and have had the honor of leading at a time of war. I've saved guys and been responsible for executing missions of great proportion. I'm proud of my accomplishments and what I have done for my country. More likely than not, I will continue to serve my country in some manner, but it will not be in the USAF. This is a 99% certainty even though my boxes are checked and the future is bright. Sadly, this is the opinion of most folks in my position. At a time when resources are tight, the USAF really needs to keep the best and brightest. Somehow the USAF is able to recruit some of the best this country has to offer. I've had the privilege of working beside them. Why do we treat them in this manner while they rush the exits? The glut that you will be left with is not the force that you need while operating at the lowest manning levels since force inception. I am cautiously optimistic that Gen Welsh will continue to work things in the right direction; my fear is that it is too late to right this ship. The saga of this ACP are not helping things either, and it likely will have zero impact on -11F take rates. We'll see soon.

GC This is one pilots point of view. Tracking that we should remove emotion from this discussion, but in that statement I feel we're missing something valuable. Real leaders understand that we are never dealing with individuals just evaluating this decision from a financial point of view or in black and white, even if the bean counters are just looking at money and end strength numbers. I value realism and appreciate the bean counting realism you're offering, but it's a little out of touch. If the bonus isn't the place to show appreciation for a pilot's service, then please use this pilot's forum to find the words it's missing. For example you touched on it with keep the faith, but then erased it with the thank you for your service pilot pansy, that sucked and I know you're better than that. Our inspiration still lies in the warrior ideal, and we need leaders than can inspire that image in our folks, so they can go out and confidently prosecute the mission, bonus or no. This talk about the mission and the people, and finding the right balance of numbers that the nation needs to meet emerging threats from a statistical point of view misses a lot of the quirks that can't be quantified. IMO, we've created entire staffs to work issues that would not exist if the Air Force could inspire it's people by giving them an image of a future that they could project themselves on without cringing, gah. The bonus, why does it exist? The answer to that question seems innumerable but ultimately it's because A1 won't start with the people, its most valuable resource. A1 is starting with numbers to fix the numbers. Start with the people, and you'll end with the mission complete and we'll be thankful all the while. If the retention numbers go up for 11Xs it might also be because Welsh is inspiring, and the bonus is a sideshow that will catch a few on the fencers, but for the most part it's just extra. Check out Steve Jobs here talking about the future of Apple and its people, start at 7:40. It's a message you began to touch on, stick around till at least 12:55. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM4tAXacpVE It's all about end strength numbers and money if I hear it correctly, we'll address the problems as they arise. My opinion is that the Air Force has failed to inspire it's people beyond the initial sacrifice without incentive, and that's a problem the Air Force cannot address with more money at ANY time, hell attempting to fix it with money is part of the problem! If leaders could inspire us all with their words and offer the quality of life that would make the word of the day gratitude there would be no bonus. However, offering a cynical remedy for the disease of cynicism isn't much of a cure. There is a more positive way, just get creative. A1 doesn't have the cajones to get rid of the bonus, that's how cynical A1 is. That 225K$ could be spent on a tremendous educational experience sending every 11X through a great school at the end of their commitment and make the covenant more valuable, while emphasizing the first 10-12 years as a chance to develop tactical expertise without that dreaded AAD distraction. It would be a transition. It would give Airmen a break at a breaking point and invest that same money in a less cynical way. It has the added benefit of getting our message and real leadership experience out in the university setting, attracting and inspiring even more future leaders. It would give folks the chance to add value to their cranium before they go back to ops or staff. That would be a positive message and a score for leadership and the development of critical thinkers. A hell of a sell to congress and a great message to young people wanting to have more options when they don't have the pleasure of serving any more. Thinkers and doers sir, that's what we need, the combo of art and science--develop it. We're worth something more thoughtful. The take it or leave it, there's the door mantra is so cynical, we want leaders that are worth our service and motivate us to follow. The decision to stay or go for a pilot whose commitment is up represents a turning point not only for the individual, but for the entire Air Force that will exist with each individuals continued service, or without it. We mercs will try and evaluate this decision with heartfelt gratitude and more grace than Big blue evaluates us. We'll try and ignore the 3 AM wakeups with tremendous anxiety and myriad images of an uncertain future, the snapshot of the kids and spouses faces that run through our minds with every deployment and just make it a financial decision. All I'm saying is that if you've come to preach to Nineveh, I hope you've spent time sounding the deep in the belly of the whale.

This I don't get. I had an IP who actually said he wanted to get out and "do the 9-5 job thing"... He said this because he went from ROTC/Academy straight to UPT, straight to AETC. I've worked the civilian "9-5", and it ######ing sucks... I think we as humans are innately prone to the Grass-is-Greener mentality, and, in the case of AF aviators, we may need to remind ourselves that, in the scope of all existing jobs available, we have a good thing going for us.