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Friend of a friend, who is in DC as AF Fellow attended the meeting between USAF and Airlines. His words "it was a horse abortion"; the USAF viewpoint was not looked upon with any type of sympathy. The overall gist was, we are commercial business who's goal is to make $ for our stockholders and company. I guess United was the most vocal in their displeasure. Statements like "you have mismanaged your pilots for over a decade". So I don't think it went like leadership was hoping...

Please. Pretty sure you've never had to take our PT test. #CheckYourGruntPrivilege Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Spending 8-10 years as an O-6 maneuvering for O-7 sounds like the shittiest deal going.

Separating at 10 years, and working a normal career at a legacy until 65 is worth approx 5.1 million dollars, and you'll spend around 3,580 days at work. Same parameters with retiring at 20 years, normal military progression, including a $35k bonus per year, normal military retirement, AND starting at the airlines in retirement nets you $4.9 million at age 65. Oh, and you'll spend 4,328 days at work. All told, you're giving up $200,000 to spend almost 800 additional days away from your family,not including deployments. *Calculations based on legacy pay rates for a 737 FO that becomes a capt at 5 years, with Airline Pilot Central #'s.

We talked about it at KCVS, given the state of affairs. I said 500K, after taxes, to stay at Cannon. Per year. 300K after taxes even if you got me to Hurby. I then outlined, based on nominal cost to train a new "pilot" (new CP) to replace me, that offering a bonus bringing pay to 300K a year for IP/EPs would actually save the Air Force money. To my knowledge, no one listened. I'm voting with my feet. Please allow me to illustrate with a slightly modified quote from Braveheart: "You've been so busy squabbling for the scraps from [the Air Force's] table that you've missed your God-given right to something better!"

I'm going to be the voice of dissent here and say I hope they don't raise the bonus. They will never compete. Congress just won't do it, so they will never realistically pay enough to make enough people stay to solve the crisis. The right answer is to fix the system. Treat people better. Define realistic capabilities based on number of aircraft and aircrew and stick to them. Want more sorties? Give us more people and planes. The AF general level leadership needs to start giving Congress, and whoever the mythical, no-one-can-say-no-to COCOM commanders, real capability levels, and stick to them. No more cbts just because some bureaucrat thinks it's a good idea. No more spending skilled labor on jobs that can be done by a two striper or civilian. No more making six-figure employees pick up leaves for a staff visit. Treat the talent like a resource. If that means we drop all those things and find ourselves with excess capacity, fine, do another RIF. But treat people the way they know they are worth, and then, only then, worry about the money. A bigger bonus or more flight pay isn't going to fix this, because they will never, ever, ever be able to raise it enough. The only hope is to recapitalize on camaraderie, patriotism, and self efficacy. I don't want them to offer more money because it's going to prolong the problem, and America can't afford it. Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic which I can appreciate.

And the AF was also furloughing, let's not forget Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

IF the eyeball portion of your exam is driving an MRI, then you may have something more significant than routine optic nerve cupping such as optic atrophy, optic neuropathy, or optic disk pallor. Any of those could be associated with excessive cupping as the nerve is essentially degenerating from a pathology which kills nerve fibers and increases the cup size. It's possible, but would be exceptionally rare for a young healthy person. For IFC I exams, 99.99% of the time excessive optic nerve cupping is simply an anatomic variation of normal and the Air Force's exceptionally conservative policy requires work-ups on a large percent of people who would not be routinely worked up as part of a routine exam. If you want to know why you're getting an MRI, PM and I'll tell you. If you'd rather not reveal your identity I totally understand and respect that. But it's not fair to take my response as "I don't know" when I don't have all the information.

I used that number to argue the guy above me that used that number. I know Capt's make upwards of 450 toward the end. So ya even still his "millions and millions" of dollars you'd be missing out on just isn't true. At most it's barely 2 million. Not even to mention the percentage that actually work till 65 is low. Don't have the number but I know it's below half.

This.

Title 10, Sec 619 (2)Subject to paragraph (4), an officer who is on the active-duty list of the Army, Air Force, or Marine Corps and holds a permanent appointment in a grade above first lieutenant or is on the active-duty list of the Navy and holds a permanent appointment in a grade above lieutenant (junior grade) may not be considered for selection for promotion to the next higher permanent grade until he has completed the following period of service in the grade in which he holds a permanent appointment: (A) Three years, in the case of an officer of the Army, Air Force, or Marine Corps holding a permanent appointment in the grade of captain, major, or lieutenant colonel or of an officer of the Navy holding a permanent appointment in the grade of lieutenant, lieutenant commander, or commander. ****************************** Since the AF wants to promote entire year groups together, the most junior guy/gal can't be "considered" until 3-years after pin on.

Regional life better than Guard/Res? Well damn.. I've been remiss. Thanks for that gouge brother, lemme go ahead an curtail my career AGR post haste! ...Motherf----er please.

Pilotguy's numbers were invalid as soon as he said that a 20 year captain makes $250,000 a year. There are third year FOs that make that at FedEx. There are third year captains that make that at Delta. There are other questionable assumptions, but they are dwarfed by the baseline numbers he uses.

That doesn't appear the case to me at all... Everyone knows the remuneration is better for the airlines, and everyone has always known it. Your acquaintance is the one making the extraordinary claim that it's a closer curve than most have assumed, and he has provided his version of the evidence. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." What pilotguy showed in his flippant reply is reality... Even if AD and the airlines were a dollar-for-dollar equivalent, the airlines have the killshot with the quality-of-life and (more importantly) CONTROL of life. He doesn't need to provide further verifiable evidence or numbers; he is simply declaring that, even in a best-case scenario for the AF, Big Blue still can't win. Anecdotal "facts" from a decade reading this forum and interacting with fellow aircrew: Reserve is better than AD; Guard may be slightly better than Reserve. Anecdotal "facts" from a shorter time of personal civilian flying experience and experience of most of my Mil peers: (The previous facts remain in place, unequivocally) Regional airline life (with the new pay scales) is better than Guard/Reserve; mainline airline life is better than Regional life. I've enjoyed my military career thus far and I know everyone on here has an innate sense of duty and service within them. However, when you're talking about continuing your life beyond your commitment and maximizing dollars, time, and freedom, Mainline airline wins... And, for those who haven't experienced both worlds yet, it is not a close race. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So true. A few years ago, I did my fitness test one month before I turned 50. My good friend who is 47 was in my group, plus 7 others. Of those 7, one was in his 30's and the rest were young Airmen in the 20's. I finished first in the 1.5 mile run, followed by my friend about 25" behind me. The two of us stood by the finish line and yelled "old guys rule!!" to the rest of the runners as they went by. It was pathetic to watch the ones in their early 20's struggling to make it 6 laps. They should be in great shape, and certainly good enough to beat a 50 year old Lt Col with an artificial hip.

How much effort does it require to pass a fitness test? Not much. No officer should ever fail a fitness test.

Guys on active duty (at the 10 year point mind you) are completely clueless about the opportunities to continue their service in the guard/reserves, mil leave and still flying for the airlines. When I became aware of all of that my decision matrix to leave active duty went out the window, it was a no brainer. Wait, I can do the same job, part time, still potentially work towards retirement with a quarter of the bullshit, oh and STILL fly for the airlines and make 3x what I do now, AND live where I want!? Why anyone would stay on active duty is beyond me. The fact that these opportunities stay under wraps speaks to the skill of various commanders in protecting the company (sarcasm.)

Aaah, invoking 9/11 to validate a decision to stay in the Active Duty thrash? That's a bit morose...ahem, I mean a conservative, safe view. Don't forget that more than two paths exist...the false dichotomy of a) stay on AD til 20 or 2. totally get out and never get any retirement money or Tricare is a ing lie perpetrated by the same POS commanders promoting the welfare mentality on AD. "Stay with us, and the money will keep rolling in...Boy, did you see the news? It sure looks big and scary out there. Thank God you took that 365...it will be a good career move for you. You're welcome." Join the ARC. Keep getting paid. Stay current. Choose where you live. Build your apps. Get hired at a major. Smile excessively while reading internet chat boards.

The uncertainty about the economy works both ways, though. Yes, it would be awful to separate before retirement and then get furloughed from the airline, but what that means is that you're better off separating ASAP to start building seniority, because every year you delay going to the airlines is another 1000 people who get hypothetically furloughed after you, instead of before.

I always valued the medical, but going on two weeks of specialized inpatient care with my 3yr old after a terrible accident has put it in a different perspective.. it is one aspect of mil retirement that is pushing me to stay in.

Ive seen the study. Apparently you haven't. I also can't recall the exact numbers but RAND showed getting out at ADSC was financially best (for pilot), getting out at 20 as an O-5 next, and 25 as an O-6 last. All examples included going to the airlines. There was another situation or two but I don't recall what. And yes, the difference was in millions. About $2.5M at the far end and $1M at the min. That's what the study showed. He's not making it up. What the study didn't account for was life after 65. The comparisons were all made AT 65 as I recall. So it didn't account for the value of the pension at that point (active retirement or guard/reserve retirement) or life expectancy. Nor did it account for health care costs at all. It's impossible to show accurate math because there are too many variables with companies and who the hell knows what the industry will be like in 10 years. I will say that in the late 90s, all my buds were believing the same "indefinite hiring" and "we're all gonna be rich and have tons of days off!" stories that people seem to believe wholeheartedly now. Do you guys think you'll be the only pilots in the history of the industry to go through without a major downturn (furloughs, massive pay cuts)? I hope it's true, but the airline industry has embarrassed a lot of predictions in the past. The only constant is that it's volatile. My sim partner at Delta years ago sold farm equipment 3 days a week for 2 years to get by while furloughed. That wasn't in the brochure when he was hired. Dudes keep saying you can't put a price on quality of life and that's true. Realize for many people, there is also a value to the security blanket of a pension and health care that probably exceeds its direct value. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Definitely a good read, but the massive unspoken assumption in all that is continued economic prosperity. Jump ship at 17 years service chasing the promise of those extra millions, get hired, then get furloughed in 2 years in the face of an international crisis and what are you left with? Not sure if anyone here watches world events, but there are currently more than enough boiling cauldrons of stupidity across the globe waiting for the right impetus. No one here can tell the future, it simply doesn't seem wise to pass up a secure retirement check like that. Sent from my iPad using Baseops Network Forums

Last 4th of July I tried to shoot some helium balloons out of the neighbor's yard with my pellet gun. That shit ain't easy! On the other hand, I brought down my father-in-law's drone just by spilling beer on him.

I'll let somebody else confirm, but I was told by several people that science doesn't really count towards any composite scores. If you look up what makes up each composite score, science isn't part of any of them. See if you can confirm that with others and then if true, focus your efforts elsewhere. https://access.afpc.af.mil/pcsmdmz/Form T/a_AFOQT Pamphlet 2014_20150825.docx

I'm not familiar w/ CFPS, JUMPS...and remember Falcon View as bad software circa 2005. I have a feeling I should know what these things are... While we're talking about Col's. I was setting up a brief for a GO w/ 2 other Jr Officers in a NAF Conference room. People walking in and out as we fiddled with the VTC since the TSgt was out volunteering. A Wing/CC Col walks in and looks around as we're messing with the remotes and the other officer is sitting preparing her notes. Cols says, "Um, I'm not that person, but lets remember our customs and courtesies and when a Col enters the room you need to stand up." We all get blinky eyed, and the sitting O apologizes but doesn't get up, and the Col leaves. Get done with brief, atta boys all around, and same Col comes over and says, "That was pretty good. But in the future the chomping gum is very distracting." Went to gather up things and talk with the exec who mentions it and the GO calls me into his office laughing asking if I have to chew gum as he shoves a piece in his mouth, and throws a piece at me. I then briefed him on a different subject chewing that gum. That Col is probably going to get a star.

Come fly with us...we'll even let your drive the car. Tilted Media

SAC Demo Team at Offutt 1985.

Dunno about all of those mentioned, but Barclaycard and AMEX Platinum are both waived for me. My Barclaycard is also set at 0% APR. I churn points by purchasing everything I can with it, and going big on the card when PCSing pretty much always earns me enough points to pay for a couple tickets to someplace nice. All at 0% APR, so it's no-hassle when USAF decides to be a few months late repaying my travel voucher. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

FIFY.

For all of you "doing the math" and coming up with these "what if" scenarios, realize that people were doing that back in the 1990s and I can guarantee you not one of their predictions came true. Like anything, an airline career is based in part on timing. Some of the guys at my airlines were hired during the good times, made captain and have been in the left seat through most of the "bad years". Other guys got in right at the tail end of the 1980s hiring wave and they've been sitting reserve as an FO for the better part of 25 years, and furloughed 1+ times. The airlines isn't a panacea. It will not cure cancer, make you rich or make you happy. If you love flying, you'll enjoy flying for the airlines, but it is a change in pace, especially in the beginning. The first few years, you won't have too much control over your schedule and you'll be going into work as everyone else around you hits the lake or heads out to see family for the holidays. But given the realities of airline staffing, your schedule likely will get better. Short of a massive economic hit (where we're all pretty screwed), you'll still go up the seniority list. The mandatory Age 65 rule will see to that. Even with us losing about 250 pilots a year to mandatory retirement, we're losing almost as many to medical retirements (it's a lot harder to keep your Class 1 when you're 62-63)...and to that issue, we're still understaffed somewhat, despite hiring constantly. For those of you that don't really care if you're flying an airplane or not, I'd suggest finding another way to make a living, because the first few years are going to burn you out. I'm writing this from my crash pad, having had to say goodbye to the wife and kids on Labor Day while all my other friends are out barbecuing. I'm betting on quick movement up the list to where in another 2-3 years I'll have weekends off and maybe even some holidays off. As for vacation, having a legitimate vacation week off when you want it will still be further down the road, but as they say in this industry, "that's what sick leave is for". My advice...forget the number crunching. Do what you think is best for you and your family. If you can find a AFRC/ANG gig nearby, then it's nice insurance, additional income during those first couple years, and a good way to get to 20 and get something for your troubles while Active Duty. If it would require commuting somewhere else to do it, I'd forget about it because it'll cost you way too much in QOL to make it worthwhile. If you love aviation, fly for the airlines. If you don't, then don't. I enjoy my job even though I'm pretty much at the bottom...so in my opinion, it'll be an awesome job once I have some seniority and relocate to live in-base. As for the bonus...you'll never be happy if you're chasing money. If you stay in, do it because it's the right thing for you and your family at the time, and if the military pays you a little extra for the decision, then great. Otherwise, pass on the money and find the opportunity you're looking for elsewhere.

Awesome. The lead class of millennials will hit squadron command with the least ops experience, the most entitlement in the ranks, and a decade of leadership crisis paving the way for them. I know several great '06 folks. God be with you gents, I'll be looking for other employment. Sent from my iPad using Baseops Network Forums

Dude get educated please https://aviationbull.com/2017/mar/28/what-will-year-cost-me