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Why do you think they were disrupting the flow of traffic? Seems to be an assumption on your part. You're also willful ignoring the role the police played in impeding the flow of traffic. Also 100% incorrect if you think the demonstrators were given ample time to go elsewhere; they specifically asked to relocate to a non-disruptive area and were told to go home. That's my issue here: they were basically told there was no option to protest. I don't even want to discus the whole idea of free people asking for a permit to exercise rights. This is one of those agree to disagree things since different folks view the same events but reach different conclusions. I posted this because for some of us, "SOP" behavior from police is a total WTF regardless of political affiliation.

What do you fly? Pretty simple question.

Not really. You consistently prove that you have very limited knowledge (beyond perhaps a few ROTC or ASBC courses) of how the Air Force works from an operator level. You avoid the question every time it's asked, but yet you call out MWS's (like the Eagle and Raptor) while having no credibility. So either post up what you fly or sit down and shut the fuck up while the adults talk.

I did. You wrote that anyone who diobeys a lawful order from a cop deserves a choke-slam. At least, that's what I took from it. You also maintain that telling people to disperse from public property is a lawful order. So again, where can people gather that the local police department does not have the legal right to choke-slam whoever they want for not moving? Is there anywhere protesters have a legal right to be, or must all crowds disperse as soon as the local cops show up?

I got a phone call from the MPF last week. "Sir, we're trying to create your PCS orders, but we have no idea where you are going." Me, "Shall I bring you a map?" Dead silence...

I think the ACLU is more interested in publicity than true defense of rights--I think they cherry-pick the cases/causes that they think will gain them the most publicity....and occasionally handle a controversial one (i.e. KKK in Sheboygan) so they can tout that their agenda is only about equal protection, etc etc. Would love to see 100,000 conservatives join ACLU and elect a new governing board, then start championing amendment #2.

The AF are OSD are looking for ways to save money. AFSOC offered to take CSAR and replace CRH with CV-22s. Since AFSOC flies CV-22s, and MC-130Js are virtually identical to HC-130Js, there are efficiencies. Replacing CRH with CV-22s and HH-60 SLEP would save billions. $3-8B depending how you do the math. Real money in today's tough fiscal environment. The money to buy new CV-22s and SLEP 60s would come from Air Force TOA (MFP-4) not SOCOM (MFP-11). SOCOM would not pay for CSAR, since it is not a special ops mission. SOCOM CDR agreed to AFSOC taking the CSAR mission and allowing efficiencies in organizing, training and equipping. SOCOM also agreed to efficiencies with CSAR mission tasking, like they do now. CV-22 may not be as capable as the CRH that doesn't exist yet (based on requirements) but it is very capable of specialized mobility. But combined with SLEP HH-60s and H/MC-130Js, CV-22s would provide a robust CSAR capability. AFSOC doesn't want to steal money. They would keep AF funding separate from SOCOM funding because the law requires it. They do it every day. 58 SOW at Kirtland trains AFSOC crews and CSAR crews in AETC with mixed funding, not hard. AFSOC didn't screw up CSAR or give it back. SOCOM commander GEN Brown made comments about MH-47Gs being selected for CSAR-X and moving them all into USASOC and CSAF moved CSAR back to ACC the next day. AFSOC didn't agree with the comments and SOCOM didn't have the authority to do either, but it made CSAF nervous. And ACC has slipped CSAR-X/CRH out of the FYDP for years. Frees up money for higher priorities. We have been unwilling to recap our aging HH-60s, period. AFSOC, or AMC or any other MAJCOM, would not deliberately refuse a mission they were tasked to do. It is ridiculous to say only ACC values fighter pilots and anyone else would choose another "higher priority" mission over rescuing a downed airmen. The "contract" to never leave a downed airman behind is not something only ACC can do. The chow hall you eat in and the compound you work from depends on who your boss is. It doesn't matter which MAJCOM you come from. Your OPCON commander will determine where you eat and sleep. If you weren't OPCON to JSOAC at Balad, why would they be responsible for your care and feeding? You were in AFSOC, but assigned via DEPORD to AFCENT. Same goes for AFSOC enablers supporting AEF taskings. AFSOC CSAR crews deployed to conduct CSAR may or may not be assigned to SOCOM commanders (TSOCs, JSOACs, or Task Forces). It would depend on the RFF, DEPORD and OPORD defined by the GCC. Combining the equipment and expertise in CSAR and AFSOC makes sense, especially in certain areas of the world now. Right now, it seems ACC and HAF don't support the move. AFSOC offered to help pay a big bill by offering an alternative to CRH but doesn't really have dog in the fight. OSD may have a different view. We'll see in a few months.

This may be the only time I've read Vertigo's post and agreed.

Clear? Hardly. I'd say the 6 cop cars in the middle of the road with lights on were more of a distraction. The portestors offered to move to another area and were denied... so yes it would still have been a problem. The Government man demanded an action by the peon. Comply or get squashed. Calls for criminal investigation is not the same as actually arresting a person. One persons rights are being violated, the other is idiots calling for his rights to be violated. If he is arrested, feel free to bring it up... you'll only be hurting your case that this is not a police state.

"It Depends..."

Oh good, we are now consenting to have every protest broken up at the discretion of the local police department at any time, but a judge will sort it out later. Yay freedom!

Spoken like someone whose never been down range, under the leadership of someone whose never been down range. As for the F-15C/F-22 question, what is their back ground? If they did one tour, and the next 20 years of their career on a staff, going to grad school, planning retirement and Christmas parties, then no. If we're talking a guy that spent his entire career in the cockpit, is a patch wearer, and has gone from flying tour to flying tour, whose number was just never called to go down range then ya I'd say they still get the big picture.

I'm sure the cameras filming them helped to remind them to maintain that professionalism. I wonder if that take down would have been different if there weren't two cameras filming it. They were on a walkway, not in traffic. Pure speculation. They weren't stopping the cars and there appeared to be ample room for pedestrians to pass by. What's at debate is whether or not this SHOULD be a lawful order. And if it's not a "choke slam" is WAY out of line!

They probably heard the engine making sputtering sounds as well... like it was out of gas!

By the absolute book, the only authorized holster is the holster you qualify with. That being said, its literally the wild west when it comes to "in theatre". Have seen it all when it comes to holsters. Don't worry about it.

Does this account for the difference in O&M costs wrt a Osprey vs a Hawk? Does the AF plan to buy CV's for rescue or MV's? As I understand it (I've certainly been wrong before) the AF currently buys MV's for AFSOC then SOCOM pays to make them CV's. Am I off base? I disagree that AFSOC doesn't have a dog in the fight, they want more CV-22s and this might get that but maybe I'm just cynical. This isn't about money, it's about iron. It could certainly work out well for the mission, but would require a change in joint doctrine. Keeping things "separate" doesn't benefit anyone. Joint PR doctrine is certainly fucked up, if we're going this route let's shake up the boat and fix things. As for CSAR, if you can't shoot back and you're going to rely on an F-35 to do your shooting for you.... don't bother with a contested objective. As far as your points about who has OPCON/TACON and where you live and eat, I've been on just about every end of that and it always seems to work itself out, no argument.

I got a call from the movers on the day my stuff was supposed to be delivered, asking "Where are you moving to and when are you arriving there?" I had only been sleeping on a cot waiting for my shit to arrive for about three weeks!

Whatever your reasons are for getting out or staying in, nobody cares. Not me. Not your neighbor. Not the AF. The only thing to say is that when you are in, bust your ass, help your bro's, do the mission. Complain in the bar as nothing is gonna change. Once you realize that the AF will go on without you, you'll be a better man....

...and that kids, is why we don't take steroids.

Need to add a square about having to learn everyone else's job because they obviously don't know it themselves.

"civilians cubicle full of wolf periphenalia", I'm pretty sure I know exactly who that is.

Nope, just you as you have made a grave tactical error in attemping to play the "MWS Race" card in order to stir the pot. Your strategy needs work. Go find some doctrine to read, the last refuge for the unimaginative. Out

Nothing but instructors, most dangerous flight crew there is. As for the number of Class A's I'm sure there will be a committee stood up to review the reasoning and then an FCIF or the like will be released telling us that we need to "go back to basics" etc. etc. then ops normal...

Those who were responsible for the sacking have been sacked.

From the gunship side (and yeah, I get that they are only 1 piece) yes, Melrose is worse than the Eglin Range complex. The fancy new targets are nice, but provide nothing in increased training value. Only moving targets would do that, but AFSOC wouldn't spend the money. Otherwise it's just something shiny to look at while you squeeze off a round. The airspace is more restrictive than Eglin because of the impact areas' proximity to the eastern edge of the Restricted Area which makes manuevers while live firing or integration with fast movers difficult. For 90% of the time AFSOC has existed at Cannon, there has only been one impact area open and available for gunhsip use making live fire scheduling harder than anything I ever saw with Eglin. And, it's been rectified, but for a long time AFSOC did NOT own the range, and DID NOT set priority on Melrose range. As far as the terrain being simliar to where we fight: put down the kool-ad. I think most would agree that OEF is one of the most straightforward battlefields we will ever see (and we've got 12yrs experience with it), we shouldn't be training to the lowest common denominator. We should be training towards the most difficult theater, and then when the Afghanistan's of the world come around, it'll be a cakewalk. Plow out a dirt LZ anywhere in the world to let the rotary wing guys deal with brownout landings, and call it good. I'll give you the low-level routes over Hurlburt, but just barely. And from the gunship side, simulating full mission profiles over Clovis/Portales day after day after day because we don't have the legs to make the next nearest civilization center has drained so much expertise from the community, it's sad. Cannon meant to reduce deployment time to the Pacific? Joke. Hope you don't have to deploy a combat configured AC-130 in July without immediate tanker support, cause guess what...they'd have to depart EAST to Dyess in order to onload enough fuel to make the next available airfield to the West. A departure from HRT without tanker support would literally make better time. With tanker support? Do the work to make a comparison of the routes. The result will suprise you. The users come to Cannon by force only. We used to have units show to HRT all the time, yes to get their yearly training in, but because their guys saw it as a desireable TDY location. Now they avoid it like the plague and only show when they have to. Camping, hunting, hiking? Yes, a 3hr drive away. Name a location in the U.S. where that isn't available within a 3hr drive. 1000 homes coming on the market you say? Awesome, I'm sure the guys that bought houses at extortion prices, because rentals and base housing were absolutely non-existant, will enjoy having a small market like that flooded with new/free/high-quality homes. That'll do wonders for their property values. And then compare snapshots of the units now vs. 6yrs ago. Sad. AFSOC is at Cannon to stay. I get it, deal with it. But quit reading Gen Wooley's talking paper to justify the location. The only justification is that AFSOC wanted a bigger footprint, more command billets, and more money under their control. End of story. Oh, except for the chance to cash in on shady real estate deals. You can include that, too.

Yep, I did. I turned down continuation and left "involuntarily" without a dime from the .mil. I'm slightly scared shitless, but one of the first things I am going to do is ditch my horribly negative attitude. Not being in the AF will help drastically. Good luck to y'all.

In fairness, John McCain seems more eager to get into a war in Syria than Obama. I'm still waiting for a good argument from the war-hawks in Congress as to why Arabs killing Arabs in Arab countries is my problem.