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@Kiloalpha I guess my point with posting part of The New Colossus poem (inscribed on the base of the Statue of Liberty) is that IMHO, it is the American tradition to accept immigrants in some ways without regard to their skills or background.

America was built by a lot of cast-offs and unwanted people from around the world and I think it would be a mistake for us to think that we've somehow "made it" now and we should only accept the best and brightest with the most perfect resumes. For those who decry elitism in other aspects of public policy and society, an elitist immigration policy to me is one that takes a cold, calculating look at paper resumes and only lets in those who are already top achievers.

I do support targeted programs that allow for additional highly-skilled immigrants and that work to actively attract them, but I also support an overarching immigration policy that views America as a safe-haven, a new beginning, and a shining city on a hill that's open to anyone in the world who wants to get a fair shot at a better deal.

"I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still." - President Reagan, from his Jan 1989 farewell speech.

My immigrant ancestors from Italy and elsewhere didn't have college degrees or a lot of money. Some were fairly shady folks back in the Old Country and I'm sure there were criminals among them. Some had fairly swarthy complexions and big noses, and none spoke much english. They would not pass some tough standard for immigration based on skills. But they came and they were accepted in time by American society and I'm glad they did.

Where I do agree with you is assimilation - to me we don't have immigrants and natural-born citizens, we have Americans. I want future immigrants to understand that when they come here, they become Americans, either as residents and some eventually as citizens, and that means something special. Yes, it means learning our language, our culture, our customs, and working hard to contribute to the country as a whole, but being an American transcends all that. It means you're a valued member of a country where anyone can make it, where no one is above the law, and where you're not bound by your race or your class or your religion or where you or your parents were born. The Land of Opportunity.

I say we welcome the downtrodden and the well-off and everyone in between and show them all what it truly means to be an American if they're up to the task.

Edited by nsplayr
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10 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Trump couldn't have chosen a worse target for his racist comments than Nigeria. 

Houston Chronicle:

"Data show Nigerians the most educated in the U.S.

BACHELOR'S AND BEYOND
In America, Nigerians' education pursuit is above rest
Whether driven by immigration or family, data show more earn degrees" 

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php

He's racist. Stop rationalizing. If you're OK with comments like this (it's not the first time he's made racist comments), you're racist too. 

Preach, it reminds me of his leading role in the birther movement! 

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@nsplayr If we're getting into immigration policy, I agree with most of what you wrote. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, there are limits on how many immigrants we can accept and handle as a nation.

My family hailed from Finland. My 3rd great grandfather had to wait almost a decade to get into the US, and another 5-6 years after immigrating before he could afford to put papers in for his wife and kids. Trust me, I'm no progeny of academia, royalty or celebrity. I'm here because he was given a chance, and I'll be forever grateful for that. However, those feelings shouldn't mean we throw our doors open for anyone and everyone. I'd want a balanced policy, (admittedly leaning more towards skilled workers) where x amount of skilled workers get admitted and x amount of non-skilled workers get admitted. No more lottery system for people who don't want to be citizens, no more uncontrolled chain migration and an end to illegal immigration (both visa overstays and border crossing). I know I have better odds at winning the Powerball than getting that, but it doesn't hurt to dream.

@Jaded that data is for Nigerians who pursue education after coming here, not before. Kind of apples and oranges, but an interesting point nonetheless. 

@1111 now Joe Arpaio is running in AZ. That primary race will become a race to the bottom. Mark my words.

Edited by Kiloalpha

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14 minutes ago, Kiloalpha said:

If we're getting into immigration policy, I agree with most of what you wrote. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, there are limits on how many immigrants we can accept and handle as a nation.

My family hailed from Finland. My 3rd great grandfather had to wait almost a decade to get into the US, and another 5-6 years after immigrating before he could afford to put papers in for his wife and kids. Trust me, I'm no progeny of academia, royalty or celebrity. I'm here because he was given a chance, and I'll be forever grateful for that. However, those feelings shouldn't mean we throw our doors open for anyone and everyone. I'd want a balanced policy, (admittedly leaning more towards skilled workers) where x amount of skilled workers get admitted and x amount of non-skilled workers get admitted. No more lottery system for people who don't want to be citizens, no more uncontrolled chain migration and an end to illegal immigration (both visa overstays and border crossing). I know I have better odds at winning the Powerball than getting that, but it doesn't hurt to dream.

@Jaded that data is for Nigerians who pursue education after coming here, not before. Kind of apples and oranges, but an interesting point nonetheless. 

@1111 now Joe Arpaio is running in AZ. That primary race will become a race to the bottom. Mark my words.

Even though we may not agree on the way forward, thanks for being civil about it. 

Yeah, but but the fact that they made it a point to prioritize education should be the spirit of the kind of folks we want here. How many of us who are second, third generation of migrant families who may not have gotten this opportunity if we had some of the skills barrier we are trying to employ?

Btw, I think we will just create a new “bottom” when we get there. Our lack of civility at the top levels (blues and reds) is astounding. And it starts and is worst at the top.

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6 minutes ago, 1111 said:

Even though we may not agree on the way forward, thanks for being civil about it. 

Yeah, but but the fact that they made it a point to prioritize education should be the spirit of the kind of folks we want here. How many of us who are second, third generation of migrant families who may not have gotten this opportunity if we had some of the skills barrier we are trying to employ?

Btw, I think we will just create a new “bottom” when we get there. Our lack of civility at the top levels (blues and reds) is astounding. And it starts and is worst at the top.

Ideas should be shared, challenged, understood and most importantly... respected. I'll chat about this stuff with anyone, because 9/10, I'll learn something and that makes the whole thing worth it.

I agree, that's a solid point. But, as with so many statistics and numbers, correlation doesn't equal causation (just because it looks related, doesn't mean it is). In fact, the article itself mentions this "The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 made it easier for Africans to enter the U.S., but mostly as students or highly skilled professionals — not through family sponsorships, Klineberg said.". Kind of makes sense that we'd have more educated Nigerians than Americans (by percentage), if the only reason they're allowed in is to get a degree... doesn't it? To answer your question directly, yes. We should bring in people who want to learn, grow and contribute. 

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Did he or didn't he... No one has any f-ing idea apparently.

GOP lawmakers ‘do not recall’ Trump’s ‘shithole’ slur

Republican Sens. David Perdue and Tom Cotton say they “don’t recall” President Trump “specifically” smearing Haiti and African nations as “shitholes” at an Oval Office meeting they attended Thursday.

“We do not recall the President saying these comments specifically but what he did call out was the imbalance in our current immigration system, which does not protect American workers and our national interest,” the two lawmakers said in a joint statement Friday.

https://nypost.com/2018/01/12/gop-lawmakers-dont-recall-trumps-shithole-slur/

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A Narcissist's Prayer

That didn't happen.

And if it did, it wasn't that bad.

And if it was, that's not a big deal.

And if it is, that's not my fault.

And if it was, I didn't mean it.

And if I did...

You deserved it.

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10 minutes ago, Jaded said:

A Narcissist's Prayer

That didn't happen.

And if it did, it wasn't that bad.

And if it was, that's not a big deal.

And if it is, that's not my fault.

And if it was, I didn't mean it.

And if I did...

You deserved it.

Ok? Care to explain? Or are we turning this into a repository for political prose?

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Remember this guy, physics major, Haitian immigrant, top honors at West Point, naturalized us citizen 

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/05/25/photo-cadet-haiti-alix-idrache-cries-he-becomes-west-point-grad

these are the people WE need in this country, period. 

What percentage of pure bred Americans are signing up for the military?  Less than 1%? I find it hard press to believe that number goes near 5%

you can find several reports, but immigrants and naturalized citizens compose approximately 1- 5% of active duty military (2012 about 25,000 of 1.2 million active duty members) across the last two decades. Do we think those immigrants and naturalized citizens, who joined the military had other skills, the military was their top choice and forego other opportunities in the US?

(add: these are folks who came here for an opportunity because what WE keep telling the world that the US is a basket of opportunity even if you have nothing to offer her when you arrive)

The day we think that WE have nothing to be gained from allowing anyone (yes, anyone) who is willing to work hard and contribute to our society but have no skills at entry then WE stop being that beacon of light we have purported to be to the world. So we should stop pretending and say, we have reached a tipping point where we would like to enact policy to exclude folks based on wealth, ethnicity, race and whatever we are using as a barrier these days for the uninvited.

 

 

Edited by Guest

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2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

@Kiloalpha I guess my point with posting part of The New Colossus poem (inscribed on the base of the Statue of Liberty) is that IMHO, it is the American tradition to accept immigrants in some ways without regard to their skills or background.

America was built by a lot of cast-offs and unwanted people from around the world and I think it would be a mistake for us to think that we've somehow "made it" now and we should only accept the best and brightest with the most perfect resumes. For those who decry elitism in other aspects of public policy and society, an elitist immigration policy to me is one that takes a cold, calculating look at paper resumes and only lets in those who are already top achievers.

I do support targeted programs that allow for additional highly-skilled immigrants and that work to actively attract them, but I also support an overarching immigration policy that views America as a safe-haven, a new beginning, and a shining city on a hill that's open to anyone in the world who wants to get a fair shot at a better deal.

"I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still." - President Reagan, from his Jan 1989 farewell speech.

My immigrant ancestors from Italy and elsewhere didn't have college degrees or a lot of money. Some were fairly shady folks back in the Old Country and I'm sure there were criminals among them. Some had fairly swarthy complexions and big noses, and none spoke much english. They would not pass some tough standard for immigration based on skills. But they came and they were accepted in time by American society and I'm glad they did.

Where I do agree with you is assimilation - to me we don't have immigrants and natural-born citizens, we have Americans. I want future immigrants to understand that when they come here, they become Americans, either as residents and some eventually as citizens, and that means something special. Yes, it means learning our language, our culture, our customs, and working hard to contribute to the country as a whole, but being an American transcends all that. It means you're a valued member of a country where anyone can make it, where no one is above the law, and where you're not bound by your race or your class or your religion or where you or your parents were born. The Land of Opportunity.

I say we welcome the downtrodden and the well-off and everyone in between and show them all what it truly means to be an American if they're up to the task.

I was going to tear into this but you summed up what I was going to say, assimilation is the key to all of this.  So many immigrants in the past changed their last names so they wouldn't be thought of as "from there" for one reason or another, but in a way, it was throwing a finger at their old country and starting new.  None of it was easy in the past, and it won't be easy going forward.  If it wasn't so obvious that one side wants votes off a new immigration policy it might be easier to stomach.  

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There is no shortage of skilled, qualified people wanting to get to the U.S.

I’ve been asked numerous times by European co workers to help them look into paths to immigration for them (pilots) or family whom they in 2018 want their kids to have a better shot at economic success.

The American dream is still alive. We get to be picky about who we let in...we SHOULD be picky.

I’m not a Trump fan but let’s face it, 69%+ of Americans think those countries are sh-tholes. I applaud his honesty.

Zero of my liberal friends are rushing to sponsor and lodge African immigrants, nor do they in reality want those migrants moving in next door.

They simply want to feel good #emotionalliberalactsofnothing and attacking trump gets some anger out.

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5 minutes ago, di1630 said:

Zero of my liberal friends are rushing to sponsor and lodge African immigrants, nor do they in reality want those migrants moving in next door.

They simply want to feel good #emotionalliberalactsofnothing and attacking trump gets some anger out.

This. 

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I'm sure the word shithole was uttered when the white house press corp who followed Dubya to Crawford Tx when they started to bitch about no Starbucks for miles. 

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10 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Y’all rationalizing POTUS saying certain (overwhelmingly black) countries are “shithole countries” and certain (overwhelmingly white) countries have more desirable potential immigrants is pretty sad. No one is arguing that Haiti is nicer than Norway, it’s pretty clear that it’s not; that’s not the point.

But have some damn decency Mr. President. You’re the POTUS and you speak for us and your words matter. You simply cannot talk like this.

The story of America is not that we built some modern-day Elysium by only letting in the “right” people with the “best” backgrounds. Far from it, and almost exactly the opposite in fact. Raise your hand if your ancestors immigrated here from a country that used to be considered not so great...my hand is raised.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/opinion/illegal-immigration-italian-americans.html

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
 

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
 

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
 

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
 

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
 

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

The inscription predates our modern welfare state and 20T national debt.  

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9 minutes ago, Steve C said:

The inscription predates our modern welfare state and 20T national debt.  

It's also from a time when immigrants WANTED to assimilate and become Americans.  They came to work, to succeed and to leave the old world behind  My how times have changed for so many...

Teddy had it right on 111 years ago:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American … There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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So we should bring highly educated, highly skilled people over to compete with established American citizens for high paying jobs, but god damn, no fucking way are we letting those Haitians come over and nab that taxi driving gig that soooo many Americans have been dreaming of for years????  Really? Give me a fucking break. 

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Watch a few of the videos by Numbers USA about our current immigration policies and what it will do to our population in the future. At the current rate of 1 million legal immigrants per year, our population will be almost unsustainable in 50 to 100 years. It’s like a lifeboat floating away from the Titanic, we can either let everyone swarm us and drag us to the bottom of the ocean, or we can teach them to build their own damn boat to float in.

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13 minutes ago, Prozac said:

So we should bring highly educated, highly skilled people over to compete with established American citizens for high paying jobs, but god damn, no fucking way are we letting those Haitians come over and nab that taxi driving gig that soooo many Americans have been dreaming of for years????  Really? Give me a fucking break. 

We have 10s of millions of unassimilated 3rd world immigrants here now.  Do you think there should be any limits?

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18 minutes ago, Steve C said:

We have 10s of millions of unassimilated 3rd world immigrants here now.  Do you think there should be any limits?

Yes. I do. And there are. And the restrictions are likely to get tighter soon with bipartisan support from what I understand. Doesn’t change the fact that that was some of the dummest shit yet uttered from a man who has said some stupefyingly dumb things. 

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9 hours ago, nsplayr said:

I say we welcome the downtrodden and the well-off and everyone in between and show them all what it truly means to be an American if they're up to the task.

But where do you draw the line and when does it stop?  It is not wrong for us to not want to be strangers in our own nation.

America is not a land of immigrants, but of citizens and those we allow to enter, remain and attain citizenship.  If choose to allow more or less or none, only those with certain qualities then it is our right, not our obligation.  We are NOT beholden to a poem, a naive romantic idea from another time or obligated for past historical mistakes made by other people to accept unending masses of people, no matter how desperate their plight.  We are not.

I have empathy for those wishing to live here who are in terrible places and if in their place maybe I would try to get here legally or illegally, but I am not in their place and I advocate for policies that are what I believe are best for us not them and those two things are not necessarily aligned.

Mass immigration to the US or other Western nations only perpetuates the problems these people flee from and when they move en mass very quickly inundate a nation shifting its cultural trajectory, they are likely destroying inadvertently what they are hopefully running to.  The destabilization, the political paralysis, the frustration leading to the election of demagogues is a reaction of a nation to the callous indifferent and stupid policies of elites who will never have to live under the consequences of the reckless decisions the make on a whimsy.  

Are their nations / regions ever supposed to modernize?  Are they ever supposed to produce a QoL that keeps their young people home?  Are we supposed to be an always available reservoir to ship surplus population and return remittances to keep dysfunctional nations together?

Also, not calling out you but where is the moral indignation for nations that are wealthy but very very restrictive with regards to immigration but not Western?  Japan, South Korea, etc... why are there not editorials excoriating them and shaming them but the ire of liberals, elitists, globalists, etc... only directed to the West?

Edited by Clark Griswold

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Senator Durbin is on a roll, he started the week by stirring the "Shithole Country" pot.  Now, suddenly him/others consider the official/very old Congressionally originated term "Chain Migration" offensive and it's in his crosshairs. 

 

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15 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Y’all rationalizing POTUS saying certain (overwhelmingly black) countries are “shithole countries” and certain (overwhelmingly white) countries have more desirable potential immigrants is pretty sad. No one is arguing that Haiti is nicer than Norway, it’s pretty clear that it’s not; that’s not the point.

But have some damn decency Mr. President. You’re the POTUS and you speak for us and your words matter. You simply cannot talk like this.

The story of America is not that we built some modern-day Elysium by only letting in the “right” people with the “best” backgrounds. Far from it, and almost exactly the opposite in fact. Raise your hand if your ancestors immigrated here from a country that used to be considered not so great...my hand is raised.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/opinion/illegal-immigration-italian-americans.html

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
 

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
 

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
 

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
 

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
 

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Buddy, there is zero evidence besides a few staunch Democratic senators claiming he specifically said “shit-hole countries.”  Several others’ in the room have claimed he did not make those statements.  This drama is akin to the Fredrica Wilson debaucle where the media ran off with a story taken out of context.  

Look, there is plenty of factual subject matter with the POTUS and any politician to logically criticize but people are tired of hearing the boy cry wolf.  

Oh and since you want to quote Jesus: he also said that he who is sinless may cast the first stone.  Tell me no other public figure critizing Trump hasn’t said more egregious things? 

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This is the same shit that brought us the Black lives matter nothing burger. Try to tell a liberal that blacks in America are committing a hugely disproportionate amount of violent crime, a completely irrefutable fact, and they call you a racist. But in the same breath they scream that we "have to" have a conversation about racist policing in America.

Now we "have to" have a conversation about immigration, but call a country a shithole, when that country is by any reasonable analysis exactly that, boom, out comes the racist card.

If you dingleberries keep using language restriction and faux outrage to shame people into your way of thinking, Donald is going to tap dance right into another term.

Maybe when someone tells you they aren't racist, turn off your inner Maddow and try to figure out what other reasons they have for disagreeing with you.

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