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The Next President is...

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1 hour ago, Homestar said:

I liked this Frontline doc. It attempts to explain why Trump and Biden are the way they are. 
 

BL: I can respect Biden as a man even though I may disagree with his politics. I can’t respect Trump, and his politics are whatever serves Trump best in the moment. 

Do you respect him constantly sniffing women and making racist remarks? 

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35 minutes ago, Kiloalpha said:

I don’t honestly know. David Duke and the KKK historically are Democratic. But there’s a good shot that guy is a Republican as well. 

But it seems like both parties have came out against it, so it’s not a great parallel. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.courier-journal.com/amp/5254313002

By historically democratic, you mean the Democrats of the 1960s, which are really today's GOP? He's apparently the leader of the local "Three Percenters" group, so there lies your answer. David Duke also ran as a Republican during the 1992 Presidential Election. 

Both parties came out about some dude tying a noose around an effigy of the governor, on the state capitol grounds? Shocking 😂 

https://www.lex18.com/news/covering-kentucky/rep-maddox-responds-to-beshear-ky-democratic-party

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41 minutes ago, dream big said:

Do you respect him constantly sniffing women and making racist remarks? 

More than the guy who just straight up grabs them by the pussy? Yes. 

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5 hours ago, slackline said:

Kiloalpha said:

Response: I find it very interesting the way you chose to word this. Sincere response: neither party represents looters or rioters. I would put money on the fact that the overwhelming majority of looters and rioters aren't voters and don't care, beyond superficially, about the issues they are abusing and using as excuses to loot and or riot. Looters more so than rioters.

That’s fair, and I’d agree with the sentiment. However, I don’t think people burning stuff while carrying signs with the hammer and sickle and communist party fist are right-wing... so it’s not a stretch to say there are more Democratic-affiliated voters and groups involved.

5 hours ago, slackline said:

What candidate for President do you think they will vote for?

Response: See above. If they vote, probably for Biden. If you think this question is legit, then I have one for you that shows how silly this question is. What candidate/party do you think white supremacists, or the people driving their cars into peaceful protestors will be voting for? Looters or white supremacists aren't representative of the majority...

I felt like it was a fair question, but I can see what you’re saying in response. The Republican Party has southern racists in its ranks, no doubt. But the Democrat party has racist Yanks in their ranks as well. They’re just harder to spot (more teeth, clean shaven, drive a Prius, etc.).

I think the return question is misleading in that you’re referring to Charlottesville, an event in which Republicans in general (and the President, but let’s not make that the sticking point) condemned almost immediately. Since then, when’s the Klan burnt down businesses and attacked cops?

I’ll also offer a parallel. If Republican politicians and pundits were actively soliciting non-profit funds to get the violent racists in Charlottesville out of jail by paying for their bonds... Do you think that’s a step too far? Would the media cover that? Because that’s happening right now with the rioting and they haven’t so far. Harris has supported them, and the Biden Campaign staff has donated to them. Not a peep in the regular media.

5 hours ago, slackline said:

Which media outlets/personalities have excused their actions?

Response: caveat to my answer, I don't watch any news channels really, but this is a question you already know the answer to, and is ridiculous on the surface. What does media have to do with it? Idiots that can't think for themselves watching either side's media believe everything they see/hear on that crap. Can't work with those people. The ones we should care about are those willing to have an actual conversation and critically think about the other side's perspective. There are members on here who say they listen, but they don't. I respect a lot of what guys like FLEA have said on leadership topics, but think he's too firmly in the camp of systemic racism is fake" to actually listen to other's ideas. There has been great evidence posted right here, not just from WaPo , that he and others immediately dismiss because (speculation on my part) he isn't affected by it, or it doesn't fit his/their narrative. What media outlets/personalities have consistently excused abhorrent statements or ethically questionable things made/done by the President?

Agree completely on the idea that people relying on media is a problem. But the reality is that most people won’t take the time to dig into things and make up their own mind. I have family members (and a significant other) who want to talk about issues with authority after reading one article or listening to a podcast. You simply can’t.

Just as an example, I have spent a considerable amount of time clearing up false info on the Breonna Taylor case. On the right I’ve heard everything from her boyfriend that shot was a felon, to she had an arrest warrant out for her when the shooting happened. On the left, she was in her bed and they killed her, they didn’t knock and announce, and one of the cops was under investigation for being dirty. 

Im sure Fox News puts Trump’s words in a better light than MSNBC, but that doesn’t change that there’s a pretty clear denial going on by networks to say these riots and violence aren’t happening, and if they are... it’s rare. Or they’re just upset, and who can blame them? That’s a dangerous form of gaslighting.

5 hours ago, slackline said:

and... Do you think any of the looting and rioting is justified?

Response: looting absolutely not! Rioting, we're on the balance of condemning history, and I think only history will accurately judge riots for social justice. I think Boston Tea Party is similar. POC feel underrepresented and oppressed, so when they are continually ignored (as has been done similarly by people on this board who ignore the mountains of evidence that has been presented here, yet in an out of hand fashion, dismiss it without real thought) what options do they feel are left to them? They want/crave attention and change. People won't listen because they don't believe it is real. Largely because they don't feel the effects. I'm sure at the time, people ignoring the issue of taxation largely condemned the Boston Tea Party. I recognize that is a loose comparison, but you get the idea.

--Please excuse typos, straggling sentences. Typing this crap on an iPhone gets tedious and easy to get lost since you can't see it all.
 

Yeah, I’ve heard that comparison before and it kind of feels right, but on examination doesn’t work. The Boston Tea Party was done in a targeted manner. They were fighting the Tea Act, so they went and threw a shipment of tea in the water when no one was looking as a form of protest. They didn’t burn the ships. They didn’t attack the captains.

I don’t see the relatability in looting a Foot Locker, or a Target, or burning down a random bar on a street. The looters today are saying “who cares, they have insurance.” It’s not targeted. It’s just advantageous folks looting to take things, and burning down places of no direct consequence. Vastly different to 1773.

There’s a bit of virtue in some colonists who have warned the Governor in Boston to remove the last ship of British tea... but refuses... so you go and toss it into the sea instead.

I don’t see the virtue in torching a random car park. I don’t see it in forcing customers at a restaurant to leave by flipping tables or making them chant your slogan. I sure as hell don’t see it when they’re looting a store and carrying out 65” TVs because “this ensures people eat tonight.” Sure, that’s why the grocery store isn’t touched.

POC have a right to be upset, but they’re hurting the wrong people. Democrats have ruled the urban areas which contain the vast majority of them, and what’s that given them? No school choice, a lack of entrepreneurial opportunities and a decaying familial structure. Start there before you break out the Molotov cocktails.

- All good, I’m struggling with the damn phone as well. Thanks for engaging in honest dialogue.

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25 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

By historically democratic, you mean the Democrats of the 1960s, which are really today's GOP? He's apparently the leader of the local "Three Percenters" group, so there lies your answer. David Duke also ran as a Republican during the 1992 Presidential Election. 

Both parties came out about some dude tying a noose around an effigy of the governor, on the state capitol grounds? Shocking 😂 

https://www.lex18.com/news/covering-kentucky/rep-maddox-responds-to-beshear-ky-democratic-party

No, I mean they’re actually Democrats. Sadly I have extended family that fall in this category (racist Dems, not the Klan). Vote D every election (except Obama... of course) but would lose their shit if their daughter dated a black guy. Next time you’re in SC, let me know and I’ll point you in their direction.

This guy in KY sounds like a real winner. Probably jerks off to portraits of Betsy Ross or something weird.

I felt that link gave context to the reply. Anyhow, you asked me an honest question, I gave you an honest answer.

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Yeah, I’ve heard that comparison before and it kind of feels right, but on examination doesn’t work. The Boston Tea Party was done in a targeted manner. They were fighting the Tea Act, so they went and threw a shipment of tea in the water when no one was looking as a form of protest. They didn’t burn the ships. They didn’t attack the captains.
I don’t see the relatability in looting a Foot Locker, or a Target, or burning down a random bar on a street. The looters today are saying “who cares, they have insurance.” It’s not targeted. It’s just advantageous folks looting to take things, and burning down places of no direct consequence. Vastly different to 1773.
There’s a bit of virtue in some colonists who have warned the Governor in Boston to remove the last ship of British tea... but refuses... so you go and toss it into the sea instead.
I don’t see the virtue in torching a random car park. I don’t see it in forcing customers at a restaurant to leave by flipping tables or making them chant your slogan. I sure as hell don’t see it when they’re looting a store and carrying out 65” TVs because “this ensures people eat tonight.” Sure, that’s why the grocery store isn’t touched.
POC have a right to be upset, but they’re hurting the wrong people. Democrats have ruled the urban areas which contain the vast majority of them, and what’s that given them? No school choice, a lack of entrepreneurial opportunities and a decaying familial structure. Start there before you break out the Molotov cocktails.
- All good, I’m struggling with the damn phone as well. Thanks for engaging in honest dialogue.

Good response. This discussion is what we need.

Here's a problem I see with your response, maybe I read it wrong, but you can clear it up. You completely ignored what I said about the looting. That is what I'm talking about on here. Things are cherry picked in the responses to facilitate one side of the argument. By replying in the way you did, it implies the other side agrees with the point you're arguing against.

Riots, not looting are an ugly, unfortunate part of a democracy. A last resort to a people that feels left with no other options. Tea Party was not looting. I don't approve of or condone attacks on federal buildings, but that is a better option than attacking the local community.

If you pay attention to the leadership of the social justice movement, they don't condone looting or violence at all. They are pleading with people to keep things peaceful.

You say there's a bit of virtue with the colonists. I agree. There's also some virtue when POC have pointed to problems in the system, countless datasets that back up their claims, and gotten responses like, "pull yourself up by the bootstraps whiner, and point to some example of a POC who did. That's so ignorant. That's ignoring the insurmountable odds most face. That's like saying, work hard in practice, and you'll make the NFL (very loose comparison). Yes, it's possible, but it's ignoring just how difficult it is in reality.

And you're kidding yourself if you think the numbers of racists on the right and left are equal. Of course there are some in both sides, but go look at the data that exists in hate groups. Not really any on the left.

Now I can see it already. Someone will cherry pick what I just said to point to and say "slackline said attacking fed bldgs is okay" completely ignoring everything else that has been said. If that makes you (not Kiloalpha specifically) feel better, well, like I said, people so firmly in their camp can't be reasoned with...


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1 hour ago, Homestar said:

More than the guy who just straight up grabs them by the pussy? Yes. 

Hey man, I’m not going to sit here and say that Trump is a saint.  But you can’t sit there and criticize the morality of Trump while claiming Biden is a “decent man.”  Most intelligent Trump supporters would never try to convince you that Trump is some kind of saint, but in a government where most politicians are scumbags, we will take his policies which even his most ardent opponents would agree have been beneficial for the country.  

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5 minutes ago, dream big said:

Hey man, I’m not going to sit here and say that Trump is a saint.  But you can’t sit there and criticize the morality of Trump while claiming Biden is a “decent man.”  Most intelligent Trump supporters would never try to convince you that Trump is some kind of saint, but in a government where most politicians are scumbags, we will take his policies which even his most ardent opponents would agree have been beneficial for the country.  

Damn right he’s no saint. He’s a piece of shit. I’ll give him credit for appointing strong conservative judges and not expanding war in the Middle East. But I wouldn’t follow him out the front door if my house were on fire. 

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1 hour ago, Kiloalpha said:

I think the return question is misleading in that you’re referring to Charlottesville, an event in which Republicans in general (and the President, but let’s not make that the sticking point) condemned almost immediately. Since then, when’s the Klan burnt down businesses and attacked cops?

Another standard tactic is to write small “mistruths” into your statements that you hope are close enough to reality that you can just slightly shift the narrative.

https://apnews.com/article/eb4b472fe89b4128990502b2b9e9e581

“Immediate” and clear are the opposite of what happened.

Here, this is from a piece of liberal hippy literature:

And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed — if all records told the same tale — then the lie passed into history and became truth.”

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Replace racist with communist and you have the conservative playbook.
Don't bother interacting with him. All he does is post shitty memes that add nothing to the conversation.

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That's too bad your side is shooting cops and is OK with it. Perception is the riots are getting mostly violent more often than not and the country is getting sick of it. Have fun losing again in 2020, repeating the same bullshit you have for the past 4 years.

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That's too bad your side is shooting cops and is OK with it. Perception is the riots are getting mostly violent more often than not and the country is getting sick of it. Have fun losing again in 2020, repeating the same bullshit you have for the past 4 years.

Possibly one of the dumbest things said here.


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Oh yeah, also when your side repeatedly and constantly calls black men uncle tom's when they aren't inline with the the leftist group think, women who vote for Trump aren't real women, and gays/LGBT who vote Trump are deplorable, you defeat your own cause. Constantly going against the Constitution, using arms of the government as clubs against the other side, I can go on and on. We were already sick of you in 2016, it's going to be much worst for you in 2020. The silent majority is real and we are all sick of your bullshit. 

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Oh yeah, also when your side repeatedly and constantly calls black men uncle tom's when they aren't inline with the the leftist group think, women who vote for Trump aren't real women, and gays/LGBT who vote Trump are deplorable, you defeat your own cause. Constantly going against the Constitution, using arms of the government as clubs against the other side, I can go on and on. We were already sick of you in 2016, it's going to be much worst for you in 2020. The silent majority is real and we are all sick of your bullshit. 
Bro, chill out.

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2 hours ago, slackline said:

1. Riots, not looting are an ugly, unfortunate part of a democracy. A last resort to a people that feels left with no other options. Tea Party was not looting. I don't approve of or condone attacks on federal buildings, but that is a better option than attacking the local community.

2. If you pay attention to the leadership of the social justice movement, they don't condone looting or violence at all. They are pleading with people to keep things peaceful.

3. And you're kidding yourself if you think the numbers of racists on the right and left are equal. Of course there are some in both sides, but go look at the data that exists in hate groups. Not really any on the left.

1. The numbers of single, childless, and in many cases white young adults participating in the riots indicates more that just hopelessness. Given a green light to destroy, many will.

2. Which leaders? Many of the thought leaders on the left, cited and lauded by media and political figures, are doing no such pleading. And I'm not sure a single (D) politician has condemned Antifa. How many Republicans have condemned the white supremacists? (All of them, including Trump, who is awful).

3. When you define racism as "far right" it becomes hard to find racist leftists. If you include "the soft bigotry of low expectations," as Sowell describes, the left is overwhelmingly racist. It doesn't help that we are redefining racism to fit a progressive narrative.

 

Couple all this with the fact that the data completely disproves the narrative of systemic police racism targeting and killing black people, and the whole thing becomes impossible to resolve.

 

You can not, under any circumstances, have a productive discourse if the facts are treated like lies, or worse, if presenting the facts makes you racist. Unfortunately, the public figures of "your side" are not engaging honestly in the debate, as you are. 

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20 minutes ago, N730 said:

Bro, chill out.

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Nah. Conservatives and the right have been way too quiet for way too long. All of your news media outlets spout constant lies and divides the country. Tell your side to chill out shooting cops and burning cities, bro. 

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Nah. Conservatives and the right have been way too quiet for way too long. All of your news media outlets spout constant lies and divides the country. Tell your side to chill out shooting cops and burning cities, bro. 

I'm sure this is ok. You sound well adjusted. Tell cops to stop shooting people.

You see how dumb it sounds when baseless allegations are thrown around without proof. Especially with the vitriol you seem to be spewing...


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4 hours ago, Kiloalpha said:

I think the return question is misleading in that you’re referring to Charlottesville, an event in which Republicans in general (and the President, but let’s not make that the sticking point) condemned almost immediately. Since then, when’s the Klan burnt down businesses and attacked cops?

 

Apparently, during the Floyd riots/looting. 

“Man who helped ignite George Floyd riots identified as white supremacist: Police” 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536
 

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1 hour ago, N730 said:

Don't bother interacting with him. All he does is post shitty memes that add nothing to the conversation.

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Who? There’s a few of them here that do that 😂 

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47 minutes ago, slackline said:


I'm sure this is ok. You sound well adjusted. Tell cops to stop shooting people.

You see how dumb it sounds when baseless allegations are thrown around without proof. Especially with the vitriol you seem to be spewing...


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Do you know BLM and Antifa are left wing organizations that have Democrat support? 

 

And they aren't baseless allegations, they are facts. 2 Louisville cops were shot during riots for Breonna Taylor. Minneapolis, Kenosha, Portland, and I'm sure many other leftist cities are burning because of these riots, which are conducted by BLM and Antifa. 

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https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/23/trump-biden-first-debate-420189

Ok, so I get that you will say it's Politico, so it's "fake news" but you guys keep letting "seadog" or whatever open his trap, so I think it should be allowed. Also, I want to restate something I've said many times, I think Biden is also despicable, just not as gross as Trump. Goes without saying that Pelosi and her ilk are also just abhorrent people.

That being said, these are quotes from the Trump team. Not spun, just their words. The guy they've been trying to say has dementia is somehow an amazing debater according to them now. Just funny stuff. Not really looking to prove points here. Gotta inform yourself reading Fox and Politico right? Otherwise you can't make informed decisions...


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6 hours ago, slackline said:


Good response. This discussion is what we need.

Here's a problem I see with your response, maybe I read it wrong, but you can clear it up. You completely ignored what I said about the looting. That is what I'm talking about on here. Things are cherry picked in the responses to facilitate one side of the argument. By replying in the way you did, it implies the other side agrees with the point you're arguing against.

Riots, not looting are an ugly, unfortunate part of a democracy. A last resort to a people that feels left with no other options. Tea Party was not looting. I don't approve of or condone attacks on federal buildings, but that is a better option than attacking the local community.

If you pay attention to the leadership of the social justice movement, they don't condone looting or violence at all. They are pleading with people to keep things peaceful.

You say there's a bit of virtue with the colonists. I agree. There's also some virtue when POC have pointed to problems in the system, countless datasets that back up their claims, and gotten responses like, "pull yourself up by the bootstraps whiner, and point to some example of a POC who did. That's so ignorant. That's ignoring the insurmountable odds most face. That's like saying, work hard in practice, and you'll make the NFL (very loose comparison). Yes, it's possible, but it's ignoring just how difficult it is in reality.

And you're kidding yourself if you think the numbers of racists on the right and left are equal. Of course there are some in both sides, but go look at the data that exists in hate groups. Not really any on the left.

Now I can see it already. Someone will cherry pick what I just said to point to and say "slackline said attacking fed bldgs is okay" completely ignoring everything else that has been said. If that makes you (not Kiloalpha specifically) feel better, well, like I said, people so firmly in their camp can't be reasoned with...


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I guess I did conflate the two of them. 

Maybe it would help to define a “riot?”

I’m lazy, so Google says it’s “a violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd.” Which basically means a protest turned violent.

I’d argue that’s happened in all systems throughout history, but hasn’t been particularly effective in the US to push change. 

Other than the Boston Tea Party, what “riot” has caused positive change? Definitely wasn’t Shay’s Rebellion, the Pennsylvania mutiny, or more recently the Detroit riots or the LA riots. In the latter two examples, I’d definitely say it made things worse.

Here’s where I think we’re seeing different things. Former NYC BLM leader Hank Newsome is ok with violence: 

"For a country that drops bombs on people, for a country that incarcerates people, for a country that enslaves people -- to criticize us for vandalism is preposterous," said Newsome.

"I think that it is a tool of white supremacy to say if you want freedom, then you get it by protesting peacefully," said Newsome.

"Why is it a tool of white supremacy?" he concluded. "Because the white supremacists who built this country never earned anything peacefully. They did it through bullets and blood. And that's the American way."

Maybe we can look at this leader saying he’s going to “put cops in their graves.” https://mobile.twitter.com/BrendonLeslie/status/1299896694088388609

I’ve shared a few counter-examples, I’d like to see these social justice folks you mention who are calling for an end to violence. Not being an ass, I literally haven’t seen any and it very well could be my own omission.

The argument that the system is racist is based on one thing. Statistical unequal outcomes for people of color, and some of those data points do exist. However, they don’t tell a full picture. Asian-Americans are kicking everyone’s ass in pretty much everything. Do we burn down their businesses? I guess while folks don’t mind them? How about first and second generation immigrants who are black, who graduate from college more often than white people, and have a higher average income than whites?

At a certain point, you start questioning the variables put in the equation, not the equation itself. Otherwise, white people are doing a shit job of maintaining a system that only works for them.

School choice, reduction in minimum wage, increase in trade school funding, preventative policing... all are things that can sway the end output wildly. Yet are never given a chance... often from black politicians who have a D beside their name. It’s a lot of self-harm, and some perpetuation of victimhood. Poor white people have it as well, but it’s institutionalized to a degree in the black community, which pains me to no end. So much talent and potential wasted... because if they study hard, or do well in school, or get that good job they’re “acting white.” I don’t give a shit what skin color you are, let’s chase dreams together. The ability to do that is why this country is unlike any in history. But instead, they cut people’s hopes at birth by telling them they’ll never be anything because of something they can’t control.

Racism exists. Go to a bar in Boston and listen to some of the working-class union guys. They’ll drop the n-word and racial jokes like it’s nothing. NYC? Just as bad. It’s a different kind of racism. They aren’t burning crosses, flying the rebel flag or wearing white robes, but they harbor some of the same ideas. It’s a softer racism on the left. I’ll give you that.

I don’t think you’re advocating for violence. You’re just trying to figure this shit out like everyone else.

Edit: I see copying/posting from the Notes app makes the font larger and darker. I’m not passively-aggressively yelling, just technology illiterate.

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