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19 hours ago, ExBoneOSO said:

20180815_Dutch_F-35_--_CAS_Test_II.jpg

This is the F-35 Stealth fighter.... oh wait nevermind we hung externals on it.

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Posted (edited)

No no no.... I clearly remember the guy at the front desk said all weapons are carried internally.¬†ūüėā¬†ūüôĄ

 

 

 

 

Edited by RegularJoe
Reference material
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9 hours ago, Right Seat Driver said:

Color me fucking surprised. Buy your jackets from Pop's Leather while you can dudes.

Could be the beginning of the end of Turkey in NATO but I think that is a small possibility...  

The thing pushing this to even get close to happening is Russia's need for a partner to help cover development costs and lower per tail acquisition.  

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russias-stealth-su-57-fighter-might-be-media-rockstar-it-has-big-problem-52602

 

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To quote the clever t-shirt I saw online yesterday - Turkey may ‚Äúingest a satchel of Richards‚ÄĚ.

 

 

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On 5/5/2019 at 9:45 AM, Clark Griswold said:

Could be the beginning of the end of Turkey in NATO but I think that is a small possibility...  

The thing pushing this to even get close to happening is Russia's need for a partner to help cover development costs and lower per tail acquisition.  

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russias-stealth-su-57-fighter-might-be-media-rockstar-it-has-big-problem-52602

 

We won't let Turkey leave NATO as long as we have nuclear assets there.

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1 hour ago, pawnman said:

We won't let Turkey leave NATO as long as we have nuclear assets there.

Probably so then remove those assets and get tough with Erdogan 

 

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5 hours ago, pawnman said:

We won't let Turkey leave NATO as long as we have nuclear assets there.

3 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Probably so then remove those assets

 

Seemed like the logical condition that precedes Turkey leaving NATO. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Probably so then remove those assets and get tough with Erdogan 

 

Or replace/swap-out those "fictitious:<)" assets?

IMHO, when it comes to B-XX mod 3/4 (12?) assets, that are covered under the US (NATO) Nuke Sharing Arrangements - Turkey currently rates no higher then a stash of BDU-38's (A.K.A B-61 Reusable - Practice Bomb's).

Edited by waveshaper
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10 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Probably so then remove those assets and get tough with Erdogan 

 

Seems like removing nukes from the area is counter to our current goal of challenging Russia in the region.

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9 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Seems like removing nukes from the area is counter to our current goal of challenging Russia in the region.

Potentially but we have to push back against the slow moving Islamo-fascism of Erdogan and the "Freedom & Justice Party" in Turkey slowing erasing Ataturk's Turkey - secular, mostly tolerant and a reasonable actor in the region, situation with Kurds considered separately.

Demonstrating to Turkey by withdrawal of support and inclusion in the institutions of the international West (NATO, EU, etc...) is the only tactic IMHO that will change / dissuade non-democratic, rule of law, minority rights respecting, threatening behavior.  

I think we should press-to-test and see if Erdogan really wants to change the strategic alignment of Turkey to Russian & Iran, my two cents is that he would blink first.

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2 hours ago, pawnman said:

Seems like removing nukes from the area is counter to our current goal of challenging Russia in the region.

Seems like you‚Äôre having a lot of trouble thinking of other ways you could continue to challenge Russia without allowing Turkey to continue on this path. Surely ACSC has developed your critical/creative thinking skills beyond, ‚Äúbut this is how it is.‚ÄĚ

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48 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Seems like you‚Äôre having a lot of trouble thinking of other ways you could continue to challenge Russia without allowing Turkey to continue on this path. Surely ACSC has developed your critical/creative thinking skills beyond, ‚Äúbut this is how it is.‚ÄĚ

I'm sure there are, but I don't exactly see either countries in the region clamoring to have nuclear weapons they don't own trucked inside their borders.

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9 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Potentially but we have to push back against the slow moving Islamo-fascism of Erdogan and the "Freedom & Justice Party" in Turkey slowing erasing Ataturk's Turkey - secular, mostly tolerant and a reasonable actor in the region, situation with Kurds considered separately.

Demonstrating to Turkey by withdrawal of support and inclusion in the institutions of the international West (NATO, EU, etc...) is the only tactic IMHO that will change / dissuade non-democratic, rule of law, minority rights respecting, threatening behavior.  

I think we should press-to-test and see if Erdogan really wants to change the strategic alignment of Turkey to Russian & Iran, my two cents is that he would blink first.

Seems like Erdogan‚Äôs prudent play in a¬†withdrawal of support scenario would be¬†exactly the alignment with Russia (& Iran?) and/or a ‚ÄúTurkey First‚ÄĚ approach that includes genocide in the south¬†and a¬†domestic nuclear program.¬†

To quote Willy Wonka: ‚Äúwhat happened to the man who got everything he ever wanted?‚ÄĚ Dead Kurds and a war¬†on Cyprus with a side of nuclear proliferation.

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If we sell them the F-35, they’re going to give as many secrets away to Russia as they can. Then we just invalidated a $1 trillion defense program. Am I the only one that sees this happening? The 30 pound brains running our foreign policy and military sales have to see that coming. Turkey is not our friend.


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3 hours ago, jice said:

Seems like Erdogan‚Äôs prudent play in a¬†withdrawal of support scenario would be¬†exactly the alignment with Russia (& Iran?) and/or a ‚ÄúTurkey First‚ÄĚ approach that includes genocide in the south¬†and a¬†domestic nuclear program.¬†

To quote Willy Wonka: ‚Äúwhat happened to the man who got everything he ever wanted?‚ÄĚ Dead Kurds and a war¬†on Cyprus with a side of nuclear proliferation.

Maybe but if you don't stand up to Biff you'll do his homework for the rest of your life.  

An alliance with the Turkey he is making is not worth it, Turkey of today is not the Turkey of yesteryear.  As Turkey is expelled from the institutions and looses access to Western markets/finance, it will decline economically and hopefully that would greatly lessen or change the course of Turkey back to secular stable republican democracy.  

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9 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Maybe but if you don't stand up to Biff you'll do his homework for the rest of your life.  

An alliance with the Turkey he is making is not worth it, Turkey of today is not the Turkey of yesteryear.  As Turkey is expelled from the institutions and looses access to Western markets/finance, it will decline economically and hopefully that would greatly lessen or change the course of Turkey back to secular stable republican democracy.  

Managing a relationship with a difficult ally isn’t doing their homework; it’s doing the hard work of diplomacy. 

An approach that includes exclusion to punish would have to be gradual and the intent explicit. Applying pressure using the F-35 program is a great place to start, but a path to improved relations and should be spelled out and actively broadcast to the Turkish people (with or without the participation of their government). Don’t forget that Erdogan’s rise is the result of a not unpopular movement looking to course correct from the reforms of Ataturk.  IMO: Drastic action that results in a sudden loss of economic and physical security cedes to Erdogan control of the internal messaging and is likely to look more like a rise in anti-American sentiment, autocracy, and wheelbarrows of money than a trend towards stability.

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Managing a relationship with a difficult ally isn’t doing their homework; it’s doing the hard work of diplomacy. 
An approach that includes exclusion to punish would have to be gradual and the intent explicit. Applying pressure using the F-35 program is a great place to start, but a path to improved relations and should be spelled out and actively broadcast to the Turkish people (with or without the participation of their government). Don’t forget that Erdogan’s rise is the result of a not unpopular movement looking to course correct from the reforms of Ataturk.  IMO: Drastic action that results in a sudden loss of economic and physical security cedes to Erdogan control of the internal messaging and is likely to look more like a rise in anti-American sentiment, autocracy, and wheelbarrows of money than a trend towards stability.


Agreed.

Erdogen doesn‚Äôt get to explain ‚Äúwhy we broke up‚ÄĚ to anybody but his people, but those people will buy his reasoning with far more trust than they will the reasons as broadcast by outside western media. They will simply see the ‚Äúoppressive sanctions‚ÄĚ and other negative motivations as reinforcement that Erdogens message is correct. The US is trying to bully them into acting the way we see fit.

To the Nationalist/religiously conservative crowds that support him, that will be red meat to rally against us and push further power and influence toward the crazies.


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On 5/13/2019 at 8:45 AM, jice said:

Managing a relationship with a difficult ally isn’t doing their homework; it’s doing the hard work of diplomacy. 

An approach that includes exclusion to punish would have to be gradual and the intent explicit. Applying pressure using the F-35 program is a great place to start, but a path to improved relations and should be spelled out and actively broadcast to the Turkish people (with or without the participation of their government). Don’t forget that Erdogan’s rise is the result of a not unpopular movement looking to course correct from the reforms of Ataturk.  IMO: Drastic action that results in a sudden loss of economic and physical security cedes to Erdogan control of the internal messaging and is likely to look more like a rise in anti-American sentiment, autocracy, and wheelbarrows of money than a trend towards stability.

Agree that if exclusion is a possibility it would be a gradual tactic and not applied immediately & unexpectedly; I hear your point on managing a relationship with a difficult, changing ally and that is a good point on ceding the ground to him (Erdogan) with his domestic political efforts that we (the USA) object to.

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Posted (edited)

Could be a very interesting summer for the F-35 program:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28421/heres-the-pentagons-roadmap-for-booting-turkey-out-of-the-f-35-program

Also two other good F-35 related articles:

https://warontherocks.com/2019/05/f-15ex-and-f-35a-the-future-of-american-air-superiority/

https://warontherocks.com/2019/06/f-15ex-the-strategic-blind-spot-in-the-air-forces-fighter-debate/

Article by Orgeron (F15EX and F35A Future) was interesting in the COAs he provided, particularly exchanging F15Cs for F35As (Option 3).

He doesn't seem to really think it is a great option but offers as COA, got me thinking could you optimize an F35A for air to air? 

Not thinking something that would break the bank (further) but anything that could reasonably done without basically building a totally new variant of the F35?

Updated/modified weapons bays to get 2 more internally carried AAMs, conformal LO weapons pod that doen't interfere with existing bay doors, slightly modified airframe for more fuel or drag reduction, etc...

With enough money, almost anything is possible but as there has been reservation expressed on buying a new 4th gen build and re-starting the 22 is a no-go, can you modify the 5th in production now for an optimized air to air mission?

Edited by Clark Griswold

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