Jump to content
Baseops Forums
Fud

AF Light Air Support Aircraft

Recommended Posts

Theoretically if AFSOC ends up with some of these, would they cross-train current AFSOC pilots and CSO’s to them? If ACC has their own separate fleet I can’t see them wanting to send their fighter trained dudes into AFSOC. Also, would phase 3 training in UPT even matter? I know that T-1 guys didn’t do tac form but every pilot in the Air Force has flown T-6 form. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, mando16 said:

Theoretically if AFSOC ends up with some of these, would they cross-train current AFSOC pilots and CSO’s to them? If ACC has their own separate fleet I can’t see them wanting to send their fighter trained dudes into AFSOC. Also, would phase 3 training in UPT even matter? I know that T-1 guys didn’t do tac form but every pilot in the Air Force has flown T-6 form. 

Yes, the current plan is to use past 11F pilots currently in AFSOC as the initial cadre and cross-train AFSOC 11S pilots and 12F CSO’s to them.  

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, mando16 said:

Also, would phase 3 training in UPT even matter? I know that T-1 guys didn’t do tac form but every pilot in the Air Force has flown T-6 form. 

Proposal I've seen is to add a T-6 Phase 3 for those headed to turbo props (U-28, C-130, AT-X, etc).  With the emphasis being on navigation, formation, and night flying.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 is armor. Something about strafing that tends to attract 7.62...


This might be a crazy idea.... but maybe stop committing to weapon systems that to properly employ puts you well within the WEZ of every ground based unguided weapon system you can expect to encounter.

Seriously... what is it with people thinking getting into an 50 cal vs Dshk/ZPU knife fight is fun. It’s suicidal the second the other guy has any actual training or the number of systems necessary to set up barrage/curtain fire. You’re basically hoping it’s just another dumbass in a man dress who tries to use short burst aimed fire at a 250 knot aircraft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 


This might be a crazy idea.... but maybe stop committing to weapon systems that to properly employ puts you well within the WEZ of every ground based unguided weapon system you can expect to encounter.

Seriously... what is it with people thinking getting into an 50 cal vs Dshk/ZPU knife fight is fun. It’s suicidal the second the other guy has any actual training or the number of systems necessary to set up barrage/curtain fire. You’re basically hoping it’s just another dumbass in a man dress who tries to use short burst aimed fire at a 250 knot aircraft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yup.  I'm with you.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 


This might be a crazy idea.... but maybe stop committing to weapon systems that to properly employ puts you well within the WEZ of every ground based unguided weapon system you can expect to encounter.

Seriously... what is it with people thinking getting into an 50 cal vs Dshk/ZPU knife fight is fun. It’s suicidal the second the other guy has any actual training or the number of systems necessary to set up barrage/curtain fire. You’re basically hoping it’s just another dumbass in a man dress who tries to use short burst aimed fire at a 250 knot aircraft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

There are ongoing efforts to acquire systems with greater standoff that our partners can employ cheaply.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Tank said:

Yes, the current plan is to use past 11F pilots currently in AFSOC as the initial cadre and cross-train AFSOC 11S pilots and 12F CSO’s to them.  

How many 11Fs are still in AFSOC?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lawman said:

 

 


This might be a crazy idea.... but maybe stop committing to weapon systems that to properly employ puts you well within the WEZ of every ground based unguided weapon system you can expect to encounter.

Seriously... what is it with people thinking getting into an 50 cal vs Dshk/ZPU knife fight is fun. It’s suicidal the second the other guy has any actual training or the number of systems necessary to set up barrage/curtain fire. You’re basically hoping it’s just another dumbass in a man dress who tries to use short burst aimed fire at a 250 knot aircraft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You should see the AAF helicopter guys do this.  Impressive to see the "after" photos...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You should see the AAF helicopter guys do this.  Impressive to see the "after" photos...


Oh I’ve seen the YouTube videos of the fixed forward 50 cal on Pavehawks. Beating zones the size of a damn football field.

Strafing is sexy.... but it’s also dumb in a world of small precision standoff. We are not a bunch of P-47s trying to shoot up the Nazi trains to prep for D-day with nothing but a bunch of 30/50 cal to rely on.

Yeah the AH-6’s do it, but there is a reason. They have to ride in on the hip of the assault force dumping rounds into a hot X LZ. Plus they’ve got the silhouette of a Volkswagen Beatle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Standby said:

How many 11Fs are still in AFSOC?

There ain’t many. That’s been one of my issues with this thing on AFSOC the whole time. The Bob’s at corporate are only interested in IFF graduates to fly it. Why? You aren’t going to be employing the thing in BFM. You aren’t going to be doing ACM. You are going to be sitting in the CAS wheel and doing strikes. If only there was some AFSOC aircraft with that skill set...

 

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Standby said:

How many 11Fs are still in AFSOC?

Between the AFRC and AD = 

10-15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Tank said:

Between the AFRC and AD = 

10-15

The next source would probably be AFSOC UPT T-38 guys no? Probably a lot more of those floating around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Tank said:

Between the AFRC and AD = 

10-15

And 6-9 of those will retired/separated in another 2 years.... Way before a Light Attack is on an Air Force ramp. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, IDALPHA said:

And 6-9 of those will retired/separated in another 2 years.... Way before a Light Attack is on an Air Force ramp. 

6-9 of those are in the AFRC 919th SOW, so they’ll be around a little longer than their AD counterparts.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Klepto said:

The next source would probably be AFSOC UPT T-38 guys no? Probably a lot more of those floating around.

There’s a plan in place to man the LA.  

Remember, the first 5 aircraft will be going to the CAAs for training purposes and not necessarily a SOF CAS squadron.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Klepto said:

The next source would probably be AFSOC UPT T-38 guys no? Probably a lot more of those floating around.

What skill from UPT T38s applies to SOF LA?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

What skill from UPT T38s applies to SOF LA?

UPT builds the foundation for all military flying...so I’m going to say all of them except sim single engine work. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Standby said:

UPT builds the foundation for all military flying...so I’m going to say all of them except sim single engine work. 

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

Single seat / pilot mentality might be another benefit.  IFF also has a basic surface attack phase.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

Can’t say I disagree, but that’s not how things usually work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

I’ve promoted the RPA expierenced dudes on this forum before, but they are getting more scarce. Most of them are 11m guys getting pulled back to their airframe, some have recat to 11U and haven’t been in a cockpit for a long time, and some were dudes that got kicked out of prior communities and probably shouldn’t be in a jet. 

There was a time period a bunch of 38 dudes went U-28s and CV-22s, I know a couple that are mid level Capt types, but to my knowledge those airframes aren’t exactly in a position to release bodies. 

Most plausible answer is probably to open up the assignment to anyone with wings, don’t place them at Cannon, and my guess would be enough people would volunteer to fly this beast with a variety of back grounds you could take a couple from all over without killing one community. 

That makes to much sense though, so they will all be at Cannon, they with drop orders on 11Fs to fly them, who will all 7 day opt. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Fair enough!  I should have asked what is unique to flying T38s that would make a T38 trained student more desireable for SOF LA?

From my POV, an experienced gunship or RPA driver would be a better fit than someone without a strike background who happened to fly 38s.  But not having flown the 38, I don’t know what I don’t know.  Ergo, I’m asking.

The single seat mentality coupled with tactical formation experience gives them a leg up on people who have lived in the crew world. We all know the gunship is fvcking beast and does great work, but the employment dynamic is polar opposite from the one or two person interaction in a small aircraft. Nothing will ever replace experience and the AFSOC flyers with CAS stink have an infinite advantage but there is also something to be said for young, moldable minds with a whole lot of commitment ahead as well. I think the best of both worlds would be a mid-level AFSOC AC/IP who knows CAS and has a T-38 background. All of the 11Fs I know in AFSOC have either separated completely or gone to reserve units in extremely small numbers. 

I’m not sure what it is like at other UPT bases, but the FAIPs here don’t seem jazzed about anything unless it has afterburners or a 30mm poking out the front.

I am being selfish, but I would prefer the SOF LA program to be in a shitty geographic location. I think it would separate the people who think it’s a fun gig with a great NW FL view from those who love the CAS mission and are willing to homebase anywhere for it. 

I know the turboprop track is going to be a thing in the future, but I think you need a few of the LA planes or high-fidelity sims at the UPT base for screening and selection. I don’t believe a year in the T-6 will be sufficient to ID appropriate traits. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Tank said:

6-9 of those are in the AFRC 919th SOW, so they’ll be around a little longer than their AD counterparts.  

But still not long enough to take part in the abortion the AF is bound to make in regards to getting LA full up....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×