General Chang Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Just glad I don't have to deal with it anymore. Especially being the shitbag that I was. I watched good bros suck dick for a #1 strat. That's where their transformation to the spineless type of leaders we have today begins. It's sad really... Young guys reading these posts: this is the exact type of officer you do not want to be like. For every Vetter, there's 10 officers putting others ahead of themselves. Seek out those guys/gals for mentorship and avoid the "Vetters" of the Air Force like the plague. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaddebate Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Edited February 3, 2015 by deaddebate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Seek out those guys/gals for mentorship to learn to be good little yes-men and avoid the "Vetters" of the Air Force like the plague because rocking the boat, innovative thinking, and actual leadership is a huge headache for us careerists. FIFY 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) For every Vetter, there's 10 officers putting others ahead of themselves So the AF pulled a bunch of bullshit on Vetter (and on a lot of other dudes), he decided it was best for him to get out vs. eat the "Capt until 20" shit sandwich and somehow he's putting himself ahead of others? I don't know Vetter personally, but I do know several good dudes in the same situation he was in - none of them were shitbags or bad officers, they simply got thrown to the side by an AF who doesn't give a shit about anyone. Let me guess, you're one of those people who thinks those who get out pre-20+ are selfish, screwing others, don't understand the meaning of service, etc. We certainly need good dudes to stay and be good leadership in the future, but those who do not want to take that path are not bad officers or putting themselves above others. They did their time and gave a shitload more than 99% of this country - good on them, they deserve a "thanks" at minimum, not this bullshit. Edited February 3, 2015 by brabus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurelySerious Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Young guys reading these posts: this is the exact type of officer you do not want to be like. Bullshit. What they don't want to be is you. People who have served have served and should be thanked. Everyone has to make their own decision when they are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Young guys reading these posts: this is the exact type of officer you do not want to be like. For every Vetter, there's 10 officers putting others ahead of themselves. Seek out those guys/gals for mentorship and avoid the "Vetters" of the Air Force like the plague. Still a clown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USAF Pilot Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Young guys reading these posts: this is the exact type of officer you do not want to be like. For every Vetter, there's 10 officers putting others ahead of themselves. Seek out those guys/gals for mentorship and avoid the "Vetters" of the Air Force like the plague. I was going to PM Vetter for some career advice…good thing you stepped in or who knows what could have happened! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Man Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Young guys reading these posts: this is the exact type of officer you do not want to be like. For every Vetter, there's 10 officers putting others ahead of themselves. Seek out those guys/gals for mentorship and avoid the "Vetters" of the Air Force like the plague. And for every General Chang, there are 10 officers shirking their primary duties to plan holiday parties and increase their bros' work load. Unless you want to impress us all with your amazing credentials, stop belittling others service and recognize there's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sqwatch Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 So the AF pulled a bunch of bullshit on Vetter (and on a lot of other dudes), he decided it was best for him to get out vs. eat the "Capt until 20" shit sandwich and somehow he's putting himself ahead of others? I don't know Vetter personally, but I do know several good dudes in the same situation he was in - none of them were shitbags or bad officers, they simply got thrown to the side by an AF who doesn't give a shit about anyone. Let me guess, you're one of those people who thinks those who get out pre-20+ are selfish, screwing others, don't understand the meaning of service, etc. We certainly need good dudes to stay and be good leadership in the future, but those who do not want to take that path are not bad officers or putting themselves above others. They did their time and gave a shitload more than 99% of this country - good on them, they deserve a "thanks" at minimum, not this bullshit. Agreed. But I don't understand what is accomplished by pointing a digital finger on this forum to those who stayed/are staying in and saying "I told you so". When I leave- if it's next year or in nine more years, I will wish the best of luck to those still serving. In my humble neck of the Air Force, I work with the best folks I could have ever hoped to work with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetter Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Chang, let's have a beer sometime. I'm serious. I think you'd realize I'm the officer that this AF needs. PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
di1630 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Young guys reading these posts: this is the exact type of officer you do not want to be like. Yes, young guys should strive to be the pilot turned exec that wants to climb the big blue ladder. I don't know Vetter but I know many good dudes who were great bros, terrific pilots and could have been awesome leaders had they stayed in. Likewise I know many dudes who used to be good dudes, decent pilots but traded it in to sit exec so they could go to school and get a strat. Given a choice is full my sq with dudes like Vetter over the USAF golden children anyday based on attitude alone. Face it Chang, the USAF leadership tracking system is balls-ass-broke! It's why the USAF is a shitshow held together by the hard tactically job focused workers who get punished by the system while ass-licking ball fondling square fillers get promoted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techsan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Yes, young guys should strive to be the pilot turned exec that wants to climb the big blue ladder. I don't know Vetter but I know many good dudes who were great bros, terrific pilots and could have been awesome leaders had they stayed in. Likewise I know many dudes who used to be good dudes, decent pilots but traded it in to sit exec so they could go to school and get a strat. You know, just because one is an exec doesn't mean they still don't give a shit about flying. Most pilots worth a shit can do both. Chang is just stirring the pot here, as usual. I'm sure he laughs as he's posting in anticipation of the likely fired up responses he's likely to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Agreed. But I don't understand what is accomplished by pointing a digital finger on this forum to those who stayed/are staying in and saying "I told you so". When I leave- if it's next year or in nine more years, I will wish the best of luck to those still serving. In my humble neck of the Air Force, I work with the best folks I could have ever hoped to work with. Definitely agree. The bullshit trail is a two-way street. Everyone has to eventually make a decision best for their family/themselves, but regardless if it's get out or stay in, they all deserve a "thanks for your service" without finger-pointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
di1630 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Most pilots worth a shit can do both. I'm talking about the guys who really want to be a execs to get close to the boss, etc. Let's face it. The USAF cares a lot more about how you handle the OG's schedule and outlook skills than it does on how well you fly or many lives you've saved as far as career progression into leadership billets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 ... I'm the officer that this AF needs... But Chang is the officer the AF deserves... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learjetter Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 ... Let's face it. The USAF cares a lot more about how you handle the OG's schedule and outlook skills than it does on how well you fly or many lives you've saved as far as career progression into leadership billets. In my corner of the AF, and in all my previous corners, this is patently false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Chang Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Guys, I have clearly failed to properly communicate here, and for that, I apologize. I do not, in any way, begrudge Vetter or anyone else who leaves the service; on the contrary, I salute them. My frustration is with the asinine posts on BODN that Vetter makes...it's enough to make a young guy question volunteering. Nothing Vetter has posted here in the last few days can be used to move the conversation forward. That's the kind of officer our young guys shouldn't emulate. Sorry for not being clear. GCIn my corner of the AF, and in all my previous corners, this is patently false. Agree. di1630's post is ridiculous and bitter. THIS is what I was referring to...not leaving the Air Force. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I'm talking about the guys who really want to be a execs to get close to the boss, etc. Let's face it. The USAF cares a lot more about how you handle the OG's schedule and outlook skills than it does on how well you fly or many lives you've saved as far as career progression into leadership billets. The system relies on a number of questionable assumptions and processes. "Shiny penny" moved to group, "shiniest penny" moved to wing...associated group/wing stratification follows...next stratification based largely on preceding stratification...promotion/school based on "good stratifications"...assignments based on school...command based on assignments...promotion based on command. What if the right penny wasn't sent to the wing, only the best penny we had at the time we were asked? What if being the wing exec wasn't the best way to develop that individual into the leader we assumed they would become? Certainly the PME system will pick up the slack for any possible short comings of the process, right? Who in their right mind wants to be the fucking wing exec? The process works outside of this stream, but it's easier if we use this shit...let's us avoid actually putting in the effort to mentor, lead, and evaluate potential. I can see why "good bros" get fed up. It takes more than just being good...it takes getting recognized for being good. But, after all this, that's not really any different than any other place. How are we supposed to go about doing it better, when it obviously works so well? Bendy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 In my corner of the AF, and in all my previous corners, this is patently false. Concur. My corner is effects based: if you suck you aren't going to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
di1630 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Agree. di1630's post is ridiculous and bitter. THIS is what I was referring to...not leaving the Air Force. Chang, I'm not bitter, and while you and Learjetter may disagree with my statement, I'm passing along words of what a ton of people think. My proudest accomplishments of saving lives during TICs, killing bad guys, training new pilots, etc. has not meant $hit to the USAF in comparison to my skills in my additional duties (which I excelled in) but I can admit that work was std USAF qweep with little to zero real world impact outside keeping leadership happy with green metrics on ppt. Chang, I advise you to listen to all the people who have realized and reacted to the fact the USAF system does not always promote the best "leaders". Instead it favors risk adverse, metric chasing personnel managers who will go with the system. Why do you think so many people say Robin Olds, Chuck Yeager and other historic leaders would have been passed over majors in this USAF? They see it...they get it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 The system relies on a number of questionable assumptions and processes. "Shiny penny" moved to group, "shiniest penny" moved to wing...associated group/wing stratification follows...next stratification based largely on preceding stratification...promotion/school based on "good stratifications"...assignments based on school...command based on assignments...promotion based on command. What if the right penny wasn't sent to the wing, only the best penny we had at the time we were asked? What if being the wing exec wasn't the best way to develop that individual into the leader we assumed they would become? Certainly the PME system will pick up the slack for any possible short comings of the process, right? Bendy The part that I've always wondered about in this process of "grooming" is where is the feedback back to the beginning about what is desired? We've been in war for a long time, how come the process hasn't changed? In a peacetime AF the above process might work, but with dudes out the door as often as we did in the mid 00's (and currently) why wasn't this process modified to account for that? Or did it and I'm just not aware? I've gotten the same game prep from O7's to O4's and it should be different. Additionally.. how the hell does someone get kicked off the hype train outside a personal decision and/or crime? Why the hell is the path to O6 for a bro-turned-douche (mostly) bullet-proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm not sure I'm tracking the repeated mention of the "bro-turned-douche" concept. The concept I am tracking is that being the group exec, wing exec, CAG director, etc. are not additional duties beyond your primary role as a tactical operator executing the unit's mission. The primary duty is staff work (normally before it's time for a staff job), you just get away to fly here and there. It's more than just not pulling the weight of an "out of hide" body filling these roles, the "shiny penny" is no longer devoting the bulk of time to teaching and growing the young guys in a squadron. Big Blue values the work done by the average wing exec as more valuable than the (next) most gifted tactical operator. Big Blue assumes the most gifted tactical operator was coughed up as the wing exec and should be taken care of as such. As long as that's true, the system works just fine...minus the loss to the squadron members' development. These are things that don't NEED to be fixed. There are far to many real problems that people focus on when they reach spots to do something about it...nor do they feel the need to sacrifice their provided executive services of their own accord. The exec should be the #1 CGO/FGO at the next lowest level, the system assumes this to be true...fortunately you do not need to be #1 of 6969 officers to have a successful career...nor to make O-6. If the stratification process was pure and applied throughout the domain of every senior rater, none of this would matter. The shit bag wing exec would get the shit bag stratification, regardless of his "primary duties". Bendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrodgsxr Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Looks like maj board results will be out on 10 feb if I'm reading mypers correctly. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawnman Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 The part that I've always wondered about in this process of "grooming" is where is the feedback back to the beginning about what is desired? We've been in war for a long time, how come the process hasn't changed? In a peacetime AF the above process might work, but with dudes out the door as often as we did in the mid 00's (and currently) why wasn't this process modified to account for that? Or did it and I'm just not aware? I've gotten the same game prep from O7's to O4's and it should be different. Additionally.. how the hell does someone get kicked off the hype train outside a personal decision and/or crime? Why the hell is the path to O6 for a bro-turned-douche (mostly) bullet-proof? No, it didn't change. I've actually had combat bullets (weapons dropped, lives saved, enemy killed) taken off my OPR because "they aren't competitive". Replaced with things like "Air Force Assistance Fund" and "tour guide for local civic group". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRRR Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 No, it didn't change. I've actually had combat bullets (weapons dropped, lives saved, enemy killed) taken off my OPR because "they aren't competitive". Replaced with things like "Air Force Assistance Fund" and "tour guide for local civic group". Honest question: shouldn't things like weapons dropped, lives saved, enemy killed show up in some sort of deployment medal citation (Air Medal, etc.)? If it does, it would make sense to document other AFAF type stuff on OPRs since it won't show up elsewhere if promotion is the concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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