Drone Pilots: We Don’t Get No Respect

[AdVictoriam]

A buddy pointed out, rightly, that running into a Pred is probably the highest risk of combat aviation right now.  When Preds move into the NAS, this won't be just a combat risk but it got me thinking.  When I got non-volled, the first guy I met - a B-1 dude and the guy that I think was the best of all of us - told me that he had to give Q-2s and immediate retraining instead of Q-3-FEB to guys who shot inside of danger close w/o initials on sim checks.  YGBSM - but with the insatiable demand and the manning shortage, there wasn't anyone in line to replace anyone we kicked out - it was the least worst option.  So as a Flt/cc and a warfighting ADO, my nightmare was one of our guys shooting or running into a good guy because of the compromises of being a leper colony.

Another buddy, previous Viper driver, described it as Twelve O'Clock High - the island of misfit toys.  Going with the analogy - there's four things you can do - 1) give up, which is useless, 2) escape, which is the often right thing to do (family, etc,) but doesn't solve the problem, 3) beat them down more, which continues not to work, or 4) find a way to build some morale and self-respect.  The RPA dude doesn't have any skin on the line, but the guys he's flying with do.  And the things that actually make him engaged are killing bad-guys and helping good guys. So the best thing I can do is to get him away from thinking about individual risk and get him thinking about corporate risk - I want the other players' risk to be more important to him than his own.  So killing=combat, and 'if you screw up your friends die'=combat. 

At the outset, the loudest shouting was about 'we don't care about medals.'. I agree - but I'll call out the logic.  The best point was that people would give up all their medals to see their families grow up.  If there's some non-zero chance that defining combat in terms of corporate risk will keep some RPA dude's head in the game enough to not hit another airplane, then I'd absolutely make a piece of blue and yellow fabric a little less exclusive if it has any possibility whatsoever of increasing the chance of the manned guy goes home to see his family.  A community that takes itself seriously is safer - if RPA gets the trappings of combat because of killing and life and death responsibility, then RPA gets Q-3-FEBs for not taking those responsibilities seriously.

Break break. Re discussion - Beer sounds like the best option.

[Hacker]

"Q-3-FEB"?

Is there some link between the two in the RPA community?

[guineapigfury]

I'll caveat, that I'm still in MQ-9 training, but some of this needs to be addressed. You will hook rides for dropping danger close without initials or dropping without clearance.

Also, it doesn't have to be your life for it to be "life and death responsibility". I think every pilot understands that getting it right can keep someone on or above Afghanistan alive. Do guys in your squadron not understand this simple fact? I'm not throwing a spear here, I'm actually fucking shocked. Are guys sitting there in the trailer, reading a comic book instead of paying attention? Honestly, what the fuck is going on to prompt your article? I'll be in an operational unit in about a month, I'd love to know what I'm about to walk into. And whatever else, I respect you for showing up at BaseOps without the benefit of anonymity because it's obvious you give a shit.

[TAMInated]

"Q-3-FEB"?

Is there some link between the two in the RPA community?

Yes, in that neither of them ever happen.

[nrodgsxr]

Are guys sitting there in the trailer, reading a comic book instead of paying attention?

Many times there's nothing to pay attention to.. Unless you mean watching a hut where nothing moves in the 8 hours you stare at it

[pawnman]

I'll caveat, that I'm still in MQ-9 training, but some of this needs to be addressed. You will hook rides for dropping danger close without initials or dropping without clearance.

Also, it doesn't have to be your life for it to be "life and death responsibility". I think every pilot understands that getting it right can keep someone on or above Afghanistan alive. Do guys in your squadron not understand this simple fact? I'm not throwing a spear here, I'm actually fucking shocked. Are guys sitting there in the trailer, reading a comic book instead of paying attention? Honestly, what the fuck is going on to prompt your article? I'll be in an operational unit in about a month, I'd love to know what I'm about to walk into. And whatever else, I respect you for showing up at BaseOps without the benefit of anonymity because it's obvious you give a shit.

Oh, I understand it. I understand that doing that in the AOR will get you sat down and potentially sent home. However, I think everyone in the squadron has done it in a sim at some point or another. We can't all be perfect, especially the new guys just starting out. Once they make that mistake, then it's easy to fix.

[JPStryker]

AdV,

So, is it accurate to say that you think logging combat sorties and getting air medals will help RPA operator promotion rates? Or do you just think it will make them feel better about themselves and take their responsibilities more seriously? Or do you think it will improve their street cred among other operators? Or are you saying that RPA crossflows should be of a higher "quality"? Because I can tell you that:

1. Promotion boards know what you do, they know how important it is, and they know you don't get air medals. AIr medals and combat time have nothing to do with your promotion rates.

2. As has already been voiced multiple times in this thread and others, people that really care about doing their best on the job assigned to them care nothing for air medals or other trappings. It's called doing your job - no medal required for that. If you're saying that the AF as an institution does not afford RPAs the clout they are due, I guess I would ask what you're looking for because medals don't mean shit.

3. Anybody with half a brain knows what you guys bring to the fight. You have my respect and, I would assume, that of most others on this board. I don't care what you do as long as you do it to the best of your ability. That applies to all AFSCs.

4. It's tough to foster a wartime mentality when you are so far removed from the theater and your missions are often monotonous. I'm in the same boat. I'm flying E-3s from Camp Snoopy. Do I feel like I'm at war when I go fly? Am I getting shot at? No. But that doesn't matter because I care about being the best pilot I can be regardless of the airframe or the mission and I try to pass that mentality on to others. Jaded dudes are poison to young guys. Not saying you've gotta drink the kool-aid, obviously the AF is ######ed up in many ways, but just being professional about the job you are assigned is huge. A few guys with the right mentality can make a big difference. Protect your young'ins, teach them the right attitude early, and it will pay dividends down the road. You can't change a culture or mindset overnight, but it can be done.

OK, off the soapbox. I hope you find what you are looking for. Just be careful what arguments you use to get there. Despite all of the spears thrown at you here, I can tell that you care about the future of your community and that is invaluable.

[di1630]

This thread was tough to read. Whining>counterwhining, etc........ Listen RPAs don't get any glory because its not flashy. The only people who really know how important it is to be good ae the guys flying, sharing airspace and on the ground. But thats it. There is a reason that military commercials feautre badass (manned) jets, badass grunts/pjs/seals etc, big guns and top of the line technology. Because thats what impresses the idiot masses who have no clue about what is going on in combat. Same applies to our congressmen and senators.

Either do your job for the $$ and self satisfaction or find another because nobody is going to start stroking RPA drivers egos anytime soon unless you can strap yourself to one, haul it to an airshow and make noise and do cobra maneuvers.

Sorry RPA guys, you are bottom of the combat aircraft pyramid whether justitified or not. Cheer up, you get more respect than the space and missile guys.

[Guest]

Listen RPAs don't get any glory because its not flashy....There is a reason that military commercials feautre badass (manned) jets, badass grunts/pjs/seals etc, big guns and top of the line technology. Because thats what impresses the idiot masses who have no clue about what is going on in combat. Same applies to our congressmen and senators.

Say again?

[Danny Noonin]

There is a reason that military commercials feautre badass (manned) jets

You mean like the VTOL spaceship that transforms into a C-17 to evacuate wounded civilians out of a futuristic post nuclear-apocalypse city? That was a badass commercial.

[Fuzz]

You mean like the VTOL spaceship that transforms into a C-17 to evacuate wounded civilians out of a futuristic post nuclear-apocalypse city? That was a badass commercial.

kinda reminds me of this:

[Dubs]

^ Why doesn't the T-Rex have a reflective belt on? How am I supposed to know it's coming down the road without a reflective belt??

[Lord Ratner]

I'm just a dumb O-3, and I'm having a hard time staying conscious with all the big words being flung around, but:

Is anyone getting "combat pay?" I get "Hardship Duty Pay" which according to Google (who has multiple AADs) is for places "where living conditions are substantially below the standard compared to the continental United States." Ok, so it has nothing to do with flying (everyone here gets it), and RPA guys in CONUS wouldn't qualify, just like finance or SF or medical or flying guys wouldn't qualify in the US.

Next is Imminent Danger Pay, which again according to Google: "A member is entitled to IDP when assigned to a designated IDP area." Ok, so you get it for being in a certain location where presumably there is imminent danger (the weekly IDF attacks should cover that). Again, nothing to do with the flying hazards. You either are, or are not in an IDP location.

Yes, the UAV guys are very much fighting a war, but no one I know is getting paid extra to fight a war. That's kinda the job description for "military service." I don't think it's fair that guys in the UAV field who already got a pretty raw deal are getting shafted on promotions and what not, but that's another discussion.

If the UAV guys want Air Medals and additional pay, then move the control trailers to one of the bases in-theater. There's plenty of room. The argument in the article that flying is no more dangerous in-theater than it is back home is irrelevant (and wrong) since we don't get anything special for flying here or there. Either that, or I'm getting hosed.

EDIT: I missed Huggy's Air Medal criteria, and moving the trailers to AFG wouldn't qualify them for Air Medals. So put the trailers on stilts as well.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Lord Ratner

[ThreeHoler]

I think you forgot the Combat Zone Tax Exclusion.

[Lord Ratner]

I think you forgot the Combat Zone Tax Exclusion.

I thought about that, but that's not really combat pay either. It's combat zone pay. Quibbling, maybe, but it's location based, not activity based. And yet again, has nothing to do with flying or any differences in flying hazards.

Am I still off? :shrug:

[ThreeHoler]

I guess you could call HFP "combat pay" -- if you actually wound up under hostile fire, as it is activity-based.

[Lord Ratner]

I guess you could call HFP "combat pay" -- if you actually wound up under hostile fire, as it is activity-based.

Checks, but since you don't get it for flying in the AOR (but instead for getting shot at) I figured it didnt relate to the dude's article much.

[PapaJu]

kinda reminds me of this:

(guyondinosaur.jpg)

Don't you hate when an otherwise humorous picture is ruined by the creator not knowing the difference between "everyday" and "every day?" Yeah, I went there.

[guineapigfury]

I think you forgot the Combat Zone Tax Exclusion.

Now if you wanted to raise morale, this might be the way to go. Doesn't cost DoD a fucking nickel, and the "different pots of money" sophistry actually accomplishes something.

[nsplayr]

I get "Hardship Duty Pay" which according to Google (who has multiple AADs) is for places "where living conditions are substantially below the standard compared to the continental United States."

I'm pretty sure Cannon AFB falls into the category of "living conditions substantially below the standard" of the rest of the United States...

[TAMInated]

Now if you wanted to raise morale, this might be the way to go. Doesn't cost DoD a ######ing nickel, and the "different pots of money" sophistry actually accomplishes something.

There isn't enough money on the planet. We are already overpaid, the only thing that is going to help is the possibility of going to fly again.

[disgruntledemployee]

There isn't enough money on the planet. We are already overpaid, the only thing that is going to help is the possibility of going to fly again.

If you think you are over paid, then go ahead and give it back.

Out

[BitteEinBit]

I'm pretty sure you'll get to fly again. The AF knows current rated UAS bubbas won't be competitive for the airlines and that when the airline industry starts hiring, UAS bubbas will be less likely to go. They also know that when the airlines start taking all the active duty pilots they will need to backfill those cockpits. Yes, these wars will eventually end and the UAS requirements will decrease. Yes, the Air Force will have to figure out what to do with all of those underemployed UAS pilots. Yes, there will be an increasing number of bubbas leaving for the airlines and Guard/Reserves creating slots to fill (sts). Yes, the Air Force will try to encourage those UAS bubbas to stick around by offering nice shiny brand new jets to fly.

While some of us still believe the AF mismanaged the rated force and we just starting to see the beginning of that mismanagement, I think they are still set up for success as long as these wars really end when they are supposed to, we aren't pulled into another regional conflict, and the exodus of pilots to the airlines arent as massive as everyone likes to believe. Otherwise, it will be a good time to be the underemployed pilots looking for jets to fly.

[tac airlifter]

A buddy pointed out, rightly, that running into a Pred is probably the highest risk of combat aviation right now.

So far we haven't had anyone killed in combat aviation by running into a pred, but we've had numberous guys killed for other reasons. So you and your buddy are 100% wrong.

I appreciate and agree with about 90% of your overall points. However, I take issue with your analysis of my job and the risks associated with it. I can see you've thought this through, but the weakest part of your case is your huge assumptions about flying manned aircraft in theater. So as sharp as you are, when you start making broad points based on assumptions you look like a clown. A clown who can't understand brevity. I recommend cutting the 'my drive home fromt he office is as risky as your flight in theater' aspect from your overall argument if you want to be taken seriously.

[Hydrostream]

"My dad is bigger than your dad so there."