What's wrong with the Air Force?

[MC5Wes]

What I was told is he grabbed the one handle by mistake. Trying to pull himself forward to see the hole the pin went in to on the other side. Trying to put the seat pin back in. 
 

This was a backshop guy who didn’t work the line. 

[arg]

6 hours ago, MC5Wes said:

Howard the first couple days of Just Cause.

I recognize that for sure. So you were there when the two gunships got stuck? I spent a lot of time at Howard flying on the AC-Hs 83-89 including the Just Cause. Last trip there was in 95 on the MC-E. There were worse places to be than there.

[dream big]

On 4/10/2020 at 5:41 PM, joe1234 said:

Is it really a cancer, though? I mean, if your concerns are clearly and logically valid, then you should have no trouble getting the currency requirements increased. Go and raise the minimum standard by which the pilots are expected to maintain. Ah, but then that's the trick, because now you're making it harder for squadrons to send people on the road to fill taskings coming down from the dudes wearing stars. Which means your priorities are in direct conflict of the other 25 agencies who all think their priorities are the most important thing in the world, too.

 

It’s not about raising currency requirements or beans.  Those will be pencil whipped anyways! It’s about training to proficiency when you’re home / not off station.  Now, I’m mainly speaking to tactical airlift; those same generals you allude to have asked us to prepare for the next fight- whatever that looks like, it won’t be shooting an ILS to a full stop or beating feet to the Hilton.  
 

That culture, of training to proficiency in our tactical competencies, starts with the senior IP core, enabled by good DOs / CCs who eliminate the queep so we can focus on our jobs. 
 

 

[Orbit]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

That culture, of training to proficiency in our tactical competencies, starts with the senior IP core, enabled by good DOs / CCs who eliminate the queep so we can focus on our jobs. 

The "senior IP core" is a slick wing captain that has no desire to do much other than shoot an ILS to a full stop.  

[dream big]

19 minutes ago, Orbit said:

The "senior IP core" is a slick wing captain that has no desire to do much other than shoot an ILS to a full stop.  

Yes, and that’s what I’m saying is the problem. I’m sure it varies by community or squadron in the MAF, but that is the problem.  Again, zero qualms against those who want to serve their commitment and head to Delta, I’m 50/50 and don’t blame a soul for heading off to greener pastures.  But while we are here in the Air Force, we have a professional duty to be better than the “vectors to an ILS.”  Oh btw, I place 100% of the blame on big AMC and the years of queep and careerism that’s fostered this culture, not my bros. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Sounds like a lack of passion, lack of duty, lack of responsibility, ok a whole bunch of lackey that needs to be driven out by leadership top to the bottom and Instructors are where the rubber meets the road. As a former instructor I relished the responsibility given to us to motivate and propagate that passion, etc above to maximize training events with vigor and realism with imaginative “what if” moments to our crews and not so much if, but when you find yourself needing to push the flight envelope/long duty periods during crisis/wartime events. (Nice run on sentence) Granted it was a lot easier right after 9/11 broadcasting this sh*t is for real and folks are counting on us - better yet you need to count on each other to stay alive. This is only from a former 141, but mostly my C17 perspective. Went from lackadaisical 2+ hour locals maybe some tanker time, etc. to 4,5,6+ and 8.3 being the longest which was definitely excessive and thought I could have been to Germany by now eating Schnitzel dammit; nevertheless we did double of everything (Tanker run, LLevel, Day Assaults, Grd Ops, pattern work, LLevel, back 2 tankers (dusk), NVG Assaults, Grd Ops, night pattern work dog tired) Definitely pinged the Higher Risk levels and we didn’t do it often, but it’s something when you prove everyone can do it and we weren’t even doing airdrop - kudos to you guys. Learned a lot from former SOLL II guys who pushed us on those extra parameters (legal for them/not for us) which was quite impressive and just more tricks in the bag. 
 

So much queep/extra duty/filling squares/CBTs, etc. pushed to the forefront when it needs to be sidelined for your pilot skills which need to be honed/sharpened. It’s not airline flying, you are the tip of the spear when something does rear it’s ugly head and lazy instructors are giving you the shaft. Judas Preist it’s not good when currency is overvalued and not proficiency which has been a cyclic issue. Commanders do your job, IP’s pass your skills, AC’s demand proficiency beyond up and downs, co-pilots push to fly. It’s sad when a few folks become seagulls and you gotta throw rocks at them to fly. I even see that in long haul in the commercial sector which is dumbfounding. Screw it, I want to fly and will steal legs when hesitation presents itself. I want to be up front, that is where the wizardry resides and I want more.

“Always play a better tennis player when given the chance.”  Apologies, it truly sucks when I hear Instructors don’t give a $h*t. No cents given, just common sense as you all understand. Thanks for the time.

Edited April 20, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[AirGuardianC141747]

Speeding off to the airlines (already having been hired on the line) as a Reserve/Guard type, totally get it based upon you gotta feed your family and you are after all part of the Reserve component and normally there is a warm up period/sometimes not, prior to activation - kind of depends on what your currency requirements are. Not all MDS’s are created equal. But just lying in wait not doing your part (it’s obvious to that individual there is no doubt) and speeding off to the airlines when the call comes.... Well....

Nothing to say, cuz they ain’t no speeding off now. That door is almost shut (bar the cargo gigs for the most part) and if hired now or fairly recently the jeopardy is well understood. This isn’t a get above the bottom 15% and no issues anymore. There is no speeding anywhere.

“Fate IsThe Hunter”, is not just a memoir...

Edited April 20, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[Homestar]

I’m trying to think of a time in my tanker career when a combat sortie didn’t end with vectors to the ILS at the Deid.....

I specifically remember being taught that rolling wings level and bracing for impact was the best, most reliable tactic I could implement though. 

Plenty of non-ILS landings in the Caravan in Afghanistan, but I digress..

[AirGuardianC141747]

“Plenty of non-ILS landings in the Caravan in Afghanistan, but I digress..”

But Homestar, I am pretty dang sure you could TLAR pretty much anything without a magenta line or even DME necessarily. You probably hand flew your gas can more than most while we hooked up. 141 specialized crews were spit out far more than the Barrel Body Globetrotter slipstream/ bow wave and all, . Stick and Rudder ain’t a bad skill to have at all. Heck we’ve been doing non-ILS into Bagram lately in a 74. It’s not as fun like it was on NVGs playing supposed tactical games, but we have our moments Whale riding.

No pilot shortage now or for awhile, so might as well enjoy the fun flying before you get some more pay to be boring neck-tie and all.

Edited April 20, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[SurelySerious]

Are we really arguing whether getting vectors to final or not makes you a good IP? Forget that whole mission part in the middle...

[Majestik Møøse]

23 minutes ago, Homestar said:

I’m trying to think of a time in my tanker career when a combat sortie didn’t end with vectors to the ILS at the Deid.....

I specifically remember being taught that rolling wings level and bracing for impact was the best, most reliable tactic I could implement though. 

Yeah, tankers ain’t fighters ain’t bombers ain’t airlift ain’t U-2s. Vectors to an ILS is an example that makes sense for jets that sometimes need to land in an unsanitized area. His point is that every community can mail it in and get lazy in their own way.

[jazzdude]

One of the biggest challenges is getting quality training time. When the schedulers load up the jet for currency beans, that local isn't going to be the greatest for tactical training, especially low levels.

There's something to be said for having your butt in the seat for the entire tactical sortie, from preflight to departure to tanker to low level to the objective (airdrop or assault landing) and the egress home. Especially as a basic crew (with an IP over the shoulder running the scenario). But that's a been rarity.

Heck, even in the sim guys short themselves. Lots of stuff you can learn and try (flying in mountainous terrain, challenging weather, etc), but a lot of guys are willing to do the bare minimum and get out early.

Through with a busy ops tempo where 99% of your mission is RNAV coupled departure to vectors to an AP coupled ILS, I can see why it's easy to get into the airline mindset.

[dream big]

1 hour ago, SurelySerious said:

Are we really arguing whether getting vectors to final or not makes you a good IP? Forget that whole mission part in the middle...

No dude, it’s anecdotal.  We are arguing whether it’s okay to be mediocre and just shoot for Vol 1/2 minimums like Joe1234 suggests or be the professional combat aviators that our country demands of us.  I have zero doubt as to why our CAF bros scoff at us MAF dudes.  

[AirGuardianC141747]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

No dude, it’s anecdotal.  We are arguing whether it’s okay to be mediocre and just shoot for Vol 1/2 minimums like Joe1234 suggests or be the professional combat aviators that our country demands of us.  I have zero doubt as to why our CAF bros scoff at us MAF dudes.  

Agree DB. If you look like Superman, be Superman rather than Mystery Men. Both Good movies though serious and not so serious.

Although with all the mentioned queep, it’s easy to be “The Shoveler!” At least he’s trying.

Edited April 20, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[SurelySerious]

2 hours ago, dream big said:

No dude, it’s anecdotal.  We are arguing whether it’s okay to be mediocre and just shoot for Vol 1/2 minimums like Joe1234 suggests or be the professional combat aviators that our country demands of us.  I have zero doubt as to why our CAF bros scoff at us MAF dudes.  

No shit. 

[raimius]

7 hours ago, joe1234 said:

In the words of The Dude, "yeah well, that's just, like, your opinion, man". I appreciate that you have your opinions on what our professional duty consists of, but so does stan eval, safety, the DO, the commander, the wing king, the MAJCOM, and so forth. And that battle has already been fought, the result being the MDS vol 1/2. Anything above that is technique, and I hope you're making that clear to the guys you're instructing after preaching about professional duty.

Personally I like instructing, and I'll advocate for going above the minimum, but if a guy wants to get vectors for the ILS and then speed off to the airlines, that's entirely their prerogative and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I get the whole "If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum" attitude...but that's usually what you tell yourself when you don't do very well.
Personally, I don't want to fly with aviators that want to do the bare minimum at flying.  (CBTs, queep, etc?---sure min/max perform that and get back to your real job!...but your actual job?  Shouldn't you be really damn good at that?)

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, raimius said:

I get the whole "If the minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum" attitude...but that's usually what you tell yourself when you don't do very well.
Personally, I don't want to fly with aviators that want to do the bare minimum at flying.  (CBTs, queep, etc?---sure min/max perform that and get back to your real job!...but your actual job?  Shouldn't you be really damn good at that?)

When you're flying with a student, how do you define your expectations? How do you ensure they meet them?

[pawnman]

10 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Are we really arguing whether getting vectors to final or not makes you a good IP? Forget that whole mission part in the middle...

Bingo.  The point wasn't "don't shoot the ILS".  The point was "training should be more challenging than take-off, fly around the flag pole, shoot the ILS".

[SurelySerious]

7 hours ago, pawnman said:

Bingo.  The point wasn't "don't shoot the ILS".  The point was "training should be more challenging than take-off, fly around the flag pole, shoot the ILS".

Yeah, I’m well aware of what the actual discussion was, I was just expressing my incredulousness at the vehicle with which the argument was being made. 
 

If I had to start over on that, I would have just dropped the, “yeah, but who’s getting the ATIS” grenade. 

[Majestik Møøse]

13 minutes ago, joe1234 said:

...The vol 1/2 minimums ARE what our country demands of us. That's what is required of a professional combat aviator...

Don’t act like those documents, or any others, are perfect stone tablets handed down from God. It takes continuous improvement from all players to make us all better.

[Dapper Dan Man]

I didn't "suggest" anything, I'm just stating the facts. The vol 1/2 minimums ARE what our country demands of us. That's what is required of a professional combat aviator. And going above those minimums is purely technique.

Negative. Those documents are what your MAJCOM demands of you, and the distinction is important. Are we to seriously believe that AMC is on the cutting edge of organizing, equipping, and...to the point, training its people? There is significant empirical data that shows AMC crews are not up to standard. Performance in exercises and downrange for one, or the MAJCOM’s love affair with the Q-3 another. I think it’s quite apparent we do have a training problem in the MAF, despite “meeting the minimums.”

As IPs, we have the choice. Accept what the bobs have written down as gospel. Or we can look at it, acknowledge the rules are for what they are, and still make the choice to be better. I’d also argue that pursuing excellence is procedure and not a technique, as you seem to imply. But i’ll spare the philosophical for now.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[raimius]

16 hours ago, torqued said:

When you're flying with a student, how do you define your expectations? How do you ensure they meet them?

I grade to the syllabus, but that doesn't mean I stop there and call it good.  A "G" or "3" or whatever the MIF calls passing is enough to pass, but I don't want people whose goal is to barely pass to be my coworkers.  I don't expect perfection, but being better than you were yesterday should be the dominant attitude in a healthy organization.

[Homestar]

7 hours ago, joe1234 said:

The vol 1/2 minimums ARE what our country demands of us.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the old adage applies here: Qualified doesn't imply proficient.

[gearhog]

7 hours ago, raimius said:

I grade to the syllabus, but that doesn't mean I stop there and call it good.  A "G" or "3" or whatever the MIF calls passing is enough to pass, but I don't want people whose goal is to barely pass to be my coworkers.  I don't expect perfection, but being better than you were yesterday should be the dominant attitude in a healthy organization.

I get what you're saying, and I get what joe1234 is saying. I managed to do almost 22 years and never had a position that wasn't flying, instructing, or evaluating and my thoughts have been all over the map on this issue.

There's always been the constants in the Squadron: A few stick and rudder guys that just nailed everything, few GK gurus, a couple deadbeats, and then... everyone in the middle. For whatever reason, I marked 2012 as the year when I saw a notable decline in the middle of the squadron's "give a shit" attitude and emphasis toward flying skills. That's also around the time I noticed a massive increase in complexity of simply being a pilot/member of the Air Force. It was around this time when the Great PC Witch Hunt occurred, more inspections, budget sequestrations/less flying, new finance policies, etc.

After a while, every checkride/training folder began with conversations along the lines of "Hey, I'm just trying to get through this. I've been working on MICT checklists for the past month and have been cancelled for MX/WX/Ops six times." And they weren't lying. So then I go to the SQ/CC with my concerns and he says, "Yeah, I know what you mean. I just got back from a conference and had to jump on a line and seat swap with 2 other pilots last night to get my one to/app/landing for the month. Maybe we should schedule a GK/tactics briefing this week to up everyone's game." Surprise, no one dropped their deployment prep, CBTs, OPRs/EPRs, Wing staff circlejerks, training summary reports, FEF reviews, travel voucher puzzles so Petey Patchwearer could lecture everyone how to calculate a tactical descent profile into Baghdad international.

So I would debrief the flight, I'd try to offer techniques, get in the weeds a little, and they'd rapidly nod while checking their watch. They all had to make slides for the next morning's staff meeting, send an email, meet some sort of deadline for more important matters.

My point is it's a math problem. I don't think the quality/character of the average pilot of the squadron has declined. But if you increase the complexity of the job and therefore reduce the time available to dedicate to improving flying skills, the result is the result. On top of that, the Air Force doesn't require or reward you for being better than you were yesterday in your primary duty. I 100% agree that everyone should strive to be better than the minimum. Challenging oneself and being the best pilot you can be for your country and coworkers should be reward in itself, but it still competes with, and is secondary to, the other time and tasks the Air Force requires.

[raimius]

19 hours ago, torqued said:

I get what you're saying, and I get what joe1234 is saying. I managed to do almost 22 years and never had a position that wasn't flying, instructing, or evaluating and my thoughts have been all over the map on this issue.

There's always been the constants in the Squadron: A few stick and rudder guys that just nailed everything, few GK gurus, a couple deadbeats, and then... everyone in the middle. For whatever reason, I marked 2012 as the year when I saw a notable decline in the middle of the squadron's "give a shit" attitude and emphasis toward flying skills. That's also around the time I noticed a massive increase in complexity of simply being a pilot/member of the Air Force. It was around this time when the Great PC Witch Hunt occurred, more inspections, budget sequestrations/less flying, new finance policies, etc.

After a while, every checkride/training folder began with conversations along the lines of "Hey, I'm just trying to get through this. I've been working on MICT checklists for the past month and have been cancelled for MX/WX/Ops six times." And they weren't lying. So then I go to the SQ/CC with my concerns and he says, "Yeah, I know what you mean. I just got back from a conference and had to jump on a line and seat swap with 2 other pilots last night to get my one to/app/landing for the month. Maybe we should schedule a GK/tactics briefing this week to up everyone's game." Surprise, no one dropped their deployment prep, CBTs, OPRs/EPRs, Wing staff circlejerks, training summary reports, FEF reviews, travel voucher puzzles so Petey Patchwearer could lecture everyone how to calculate a tactical descent profile into Baghdad international.

So I would debrief the flight, I'd try to offer techniques, get in the weeds a little, and they'd rapidly nod while checking their watch. They all had to make slides for the next morning's staff meeting, send an email, meet some sort of deadline for more important matters.

My point is it's a math problem. I don't think the quality/character of the average pilot of the squadron has declined. But if you increase the complexity of the job and therefore reduce the time available to dedicate to improving flying skills, the result is the result. On top of that, the Air Force doesn't require or reward you for being better than you were yesterday in your primary duty. I 100% agree that everyone should strive to be better than the minimum. Challenging oneself and being the best pilot you can be for your country and coworkers should be reward in itself, but it still competes with, and is secondary to, the other time and tasks the Air Force requires.

Checks!