sky_king Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 "Culture of correcting standards" "Proper Airmanship is correcting each other about things such as "your sideburns are too long," "take your sunglasses off the top of your head," "tuck your PT shirt in," "why didn't you pay proper respect to the flag," and so on...." Ugh... Shit, they put out one of these articles every month. If you think because I refuse to wear a desert sand t-shirt that I don't care how my airplane is flown, you are sorely mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsplayr Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 (edited) If we can't count on each other to make the right decision on a small 'Airmanship' standard, how can we count on each other to make the right decision when it's a big decision -- when lives could be at stake? The simple answer is, we can't. This is the attitude that is killing the AF; it's taking a Patton quote and using it to kill mission focus. "If you can't tuck in your shirt, how do I know you'll drop your ordnance on time and on target?" Because one is more important you idiot and most rational people can prioritize. If you can't prioritize whether it's more important to properly wipe your ass versus doing your job in combat then I feel bad for you. And if some airman or NCO tells an officer, "Take your sunglasses off the top of your head," as E-9 Randolph suggests, he should get his ass chewed; what are the chances our officers are aware of their responsibility in that area? The secondary problem with this whole message is that it has no mention of proper time, place, and tone for making any suggested correction and you end up with asshat enlisted troops who think they can tell officers what to do; great situation for military discipline. Edited August 4, 2011 by nsplayr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 This is the attitude that is killing the AF... If you can't prioritize whether it's more important to properly wipe your ass versus doing your job in combat then I feel bad for you. The secondary problem with this whole message is that it has no mention of proper time, place, and tone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiner Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 So sick of this shit. All of these little rules should be reserved as extra critiques for those who completely suck at their job as a last, "gotcha bitch!" I'm so tired of all of these non-CAF people with their infinite time not helping "customers" enforcing rules that don't matter to make them feel like they are actually playing military. I wish we could point fingers only at non-ops though. A few years ago at the Deid we had a first sergeant who was given free reign by the expeditionary sq/cc. Most of the ACs got together to talk to the CC about how this shirt was disrespectfully correcting officers in public about stupid things, like wearing sunglasses in the caddy. The CC said he didn't want to hear about it and to consider whatever the shirt says as his (the CC's) own word. If we didn't the shirt would tell him and take his side. FAIL! Perfect example of how not to lead, especially downrange. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I'm so tired of all of these non-CAF people with their infinite time not helping "customers" enforcing rules that don't matter to make them feel like they are actually playing military. This, in big bright shiny bold neon flashing letters. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHS17 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 "Culture of correcting standards" This is the comment I submitted, we'll see if it gets published. This article's use of the word "Airmanship" is a complete abomination. Merriam-Webster defines airmanship as: "skill in piloting or navigating aircraft." Please stop using a fundamental concept of our service as a buzzword. And before anyone thinks this is about operators vs. support, please don't. This is about an overblown warrior ethos and a lack of focus on the core competencies of the Air Force. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backseatdriver Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 This is the comment I submitted, we'll see if it gets published. Why did you stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHS17 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Why did you stop? Not sure, just wanted to keep it short and simple. Doesn't matter, not posted as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tac airlifter Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Not sure, just wanted to keep it short and simple. Doesn't matter, not posted as of now. Looks like they posted it. Well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKopack Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Looks like they posted it. Well played. Glad to see it was posted, and shocked to see mine was s well (that might be a first...) What would Robin Olds do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaw2001 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Glad to see it was posted, and shocked to see mine was s well (that might be a first...) What would Robin Olds do? While I agree with it personally, I think the cliche Robin Olds argument is like trying to make a moral case against abortion to an atheist. Robin Olds lived in a much different era and the argument falls on deaf ears. While most pilots would argue those were better days, the reality of today: there is a 99.9% chance people will return from a mission in any aircraft (fighter, UAV (ha), heavy) in one piece. SOOO, as many have said before, we get to fight a long-term war with a peace time standards environment. I am done trying to change the Air Force. It is a huge bureaucratic mess...basically a social security system with wings. I say take it or leave it...serve your time and get out, or stay in and deal with the exponentially increasing bullshit. Do we really think a post on af.com is going to change their behavior in any way. Hell, I applied for VSP, and after all that upheaval up and down the chain after the results...what changed? I am still in the Air Force...I think our only vote is with the good old feet and I plan on using them in a few years. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosswind Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Spaw2001 - I'm an atheist against abortion so your initial premiss sucks. But I digress (I refuse to thread hijack) It does get more and more disheartening to see things like this, to hear about how rolling my sleeves down, throwing away my patches, and completely detaching squadron morale seems to be a better way to win a war then rugged individualism and tactical prowess - especially when people asking that of us are simply unqualified to do our job. If you read Robin's book, he would WIN IT. That was his advice to the Pentagon upon returning from Vietnam. I think our real answer isn't to ask what he would do but do it. Instead of writing letters complaining to Gen Welsh we should write letters saying "I'm doing this, I hope you have my back - Sir." Prime Example - At Robin's first group commander job he was ordered to stop the tradition of glass breaking in the bar. He enforced that order unquestionably but he refused to leave his men with nothing - so instead of breaking all the glass he and the men broke every piece of furniture in the place the first night he showed up! Conclusion - tear shit up and don't bitch out! If a Chief tells you our out of line remind him what the Air Force does , it's history, and how we kick ass with or without our sleeves rolled up or down. But we'd rather do it in style! Oh and that your an officer and that he is way off base. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fud Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 If you read Robin's book, he would WIN IT. That was his advice to the Pentagon upon returning from Vietnam. I think our real answer isn't to ask what he would do but do it. Instead of writing letters complaining to Gen Welsh we should write letters saying "I'm doing this, I hope you have my back - Sir." This is exactly why a person of his caliber could never be the CSAF or the POTUS. Just off the top of my head I can think of two examples of what he did "back in the day" would have gotten him court martialed or kicked out today. One was his low flyover at an Air Show. He was denied promotion to O-7 and his medal was torn up. He ended up getting sent to Vietnam and was the face of the USAF and the inspiration to many even today. After his stint as the WG/CC at Ubon, he had sex with his secretary. This would have made the front page of the AF Times, and his career would have ended immediately. I don't like what I see in Air Force management these days. While I agree that there should be rules and accountability, I think that people need to be able to think outside the box. The military discourages this type of behavior for the most part, even though it says it wants this type of dialogue between commanders and subordinates. I hope Gen. Welsh is getting the big picture here with all the feedback he is receiving. However, I think it will take a mass exodus of people for leadership to get the big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 While most pilots would argue those were better days, the reality of today: there is a 99.9% chance people will return from a mission in any aircraft (fighter, UAV (ha), heavy) in one piece. SOOO, as many have said before, we get to fight a long-term war with a peace time standards environment. True for the sorties in the air right this minute, maybe. However, this was not true during high intensity combat operations over the past 20 years. We lost jets. Not like Vietnam, but they used some really shitty tactics (among other things). But we still lost jets in the last 20 years and had holes in jets we did not lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaw2001 Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Am I the only Air Force pilot just not 100% impressed with the Robin Old's style? It is a niche leadership style that worked for a certain type of person in a particular era. As I mentioned in the previous post, I agree with his tenacity and am obviously not a fan of the complete slide to political correctness today. But, Olds' style was much like a Patton. Olds and Patton are great battlefield commanders. But, imagine if Eisenhower and Omar Bradley weren't present to keep aggressive leadership style such as Patton's in check. Similarly, I think an Olds style leadership simply caps out at a point. Disregard for politics in total favor for mission and bros is simply an ideal that doesn't exist in the real world. Personally, I prefer Gen Welsh, Colin Powell, Petraeus type that seem to strike an excellent balance between politics, morale, and mission. Unfortuantely, this style is few and far between so we tend to herald back to the days of Gen Olds and set an unrealistic benchmark 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Am I the only Air Force pilot just not 100% impressed with the Robin Old's style? It is a niche leadership style that worked for a certain type of person in a particular era. As I mentioned in the previous post, I agree with his tenacity and am obviously not a fan of the complete slide to political correctness today. But, Olds' style was much like a Patton. Olds and Patton are great battlefield commanders. But, imagine if Eisenhower and Omar Bradley weren't present to keep aggressive leadership style such as Patton's in check. Similarly, I think an Olds style leadership simply caps out at a point. Disregard for politics in total favor for mission and bros is simply an ideal that doesn't exist in the real world. Personally, I prefer Gen Welsh, Colin Powell, Petraeus type that seem to strike an excellent balance between politics, morale, and mission. Unfortuantely, this style is few and far between so we tend to herald back to the days of Gen Olds and set an unrealistic benchmark Yes, but Eisenhower and Powell are once in a generation talents. You can't count on having those guys, the sample size is just too small. The problem is that there are plenty of bros with an Oldsian outlook, but they're not making O-6, O-5 or even O-4. We could promote the "mission first, queep never" guys more reliably because there are plenty of them. I'm not saying that we have 1000 Robin Olds out there, but we have plenty of guys who have a similar worldview and would presumably lead in a similar fashion, although probably without the style and epic moustache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busdriver Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 There's more than one way to skin a cat. Read about Robin Olds, but also read about guys like Heinie Aderholt. There are plenty of others as well, but I seriously doubt Aderholt and Olds would have seen eye to eye, but both where great leaders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czecksikhs Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 From the upcoming edition of the AF Enquirer: http://militarytimes...ir-force-times/ Once I accepted that things are jacked beyond repair by anyone in any position of authority EVER, I was able to find happiness and humor in things like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFM this Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 In the interim, the Air Force is offering up to $125,000 to entice manned aircraft as well as drone pilots to stay in the service a bit longer. Uhh, is my math off? Isn't this the bonus, as it has been, for several years now? How is this bonus "Fatter"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 From the upcoming edition of the AF Enquirer: http://militarytimes...ir-force-times/ Once I accepted that things are jacked beyond repair by anyone in any position of authority EVER, I was able to find happiness and humor in things like this. Wow. The three fighter pilot non-selects for Major in my ops group are going to roll their eyes so hard their optic nerves might snap when they see THAT at the BX. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAMInated Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 (edited) Once I accepted that things are jacked beyond repair by anyone in any position of authority EVER, I was able to find happiness and humor in things like this. So you got that goin for ya....which is nice. Edited April 5, 2012 by TAMInated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmacwc Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 (edited) Big blue Air Force; convincing us one at a time the sky is purple. What a bunch of idiots, at least this 11F got VSP, you have to capitalize on indecision. Edited April 5, 2012 by matmacwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitteEinBit Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 This is just the Air Force Times trying to sell papers....there is no pilot shortage. The Air Force has this under control.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bergman Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 They mention 2017 as being the worst year of the shortage. Interestingly, if you look at the mandatory retirement data from American Airlines and Delta (and I am sure the other airlines' curve looks similar), their peak pilot retirements will be then as well. Wonder who is going to win the battle for talent? I personally think pilot retention is going to be way worse that the USAF is currently predicting. They deserve it, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 This is just the Air Force Times trying to sell papers....there is no pilot shortage. The Air Force has this under control.... "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" "The emperor has no clothes!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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