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I'm always puzzled when people blame the construct for the behavior. Rank is just a reflection of hierarchies, which are inseparable from humanity. You get rid of cadet ranks and they will be replaced by another construct, which will act the same way. You have to structure the hierarchies in a way that promote stability. But acting as though they can be removed from the equation is like arguing that we should just remove hate, or fear, or greed. They are foundational components of humanity. The failure was not the existence of rank. It never is.

I wonder if there isn’t something deeper which is causing this “turmoil” in the Chicago public school system……

show me on the doll where JROTC touched you FLEA between transgender/LGBTQ+++++ agenda and diversity/equity/inclusion woke agenda....JROTC is WAY down the list on any harm being caused to children. left leaning people are castrating children in the name of trans acceptance. JROTC isn't the issue.

Well to be fully transparent I believe all public education is dog shit at this point. If you’re ranked #1, you’re simply just the best of the worst. Someone’s #1 at nav school…but they’re still a nav! And it’s not difficult for me to personally fathom the problems, I’ve lived them first hand in a deeply progressive state that was sold as “great schools.” Turns out they’re horrendous schools from every angle you look at it. For example, the highly ranked high school in our previous district, which costs almost $19k per student, is producing less than 50% math proficient and less than 63% reading proficient. That’s an epic failure, but they’re still considered a “great” school district. Bottom line, the idea of moving to a specific area because of the “great schools” is a dead notion in our country, no such thing anymore in the public sphere…until we have a massive overhaul which will have to be nothing short of “burn it down” and build anew. Probably won’t ever happen.

That's one hell of a broad brush. Would you care to elaborate how some recent and admittedly horrible events in Chicago overshadow the entirely of the JROTC program? I'm not a JROTC guru, but in making such a large claim, you clearly must be. So, by your standard, if a program fails in one location we should change the rules everywhere? That doesn't check. You're willing to trash a whole program based on the outcomes of one section of society. But let's walk the dog a little: What's your take on service academies? Ban those too? What about CAP? They've had scandals. Executive staffs? Political interns? Oh yeah, and Colonels. LOTS of sex scandals with Colonels. Get rid of all those too. Where do you draw the line. Restructure and reorganization? Definitely. Rip away the foundational bits? Ummmm no. You might as well get rid of uniforms, saluting, flags, marching, PT, and all forms of decorum. Heck, just say whoever's the biggest and strongest gets to make the rules. That works out well, right? Hyperbole aside, consider what the military will look like when these kids who started their military experience with no rank then become leaders. Consider an active duty general in AFPC someday recommending we get rid of ranks, because he saw it work once when he was young... Seriously. That kind of shit has happened. Moreover, casting aside rank is the first step towards casting aside responsibility and accountability. I'm a history guy, and yes, there are 1000's (plural) of years of written history with ranks involved. There were periods when social status fed into that, but rank has ALWAYS been associated with responsibility. It's one of the first tiers that separates the professional military from a militia or a band of civilians. According to you. If it was so dumb, did you burn your rank in effigy about how you were being oppressed? I doubt it. It wasn't dumb, you simply didn't understand it. Just because you think a tradition or structure are 'dumb' because you don't see with a long vision, don't mean jack in reality. I have no doubt many people have thought you are dumb, that doesn't make you dumb. The facts of history don't give a shit about our emotions. Ranks structures have for 1000's of years created order, unity, cohesion, and a clear line of authority in military structure with members down to the age of 12...and younger if you're Greek. Step back and look at the nearly 300 year tradition of the military in this country alone and you might grow some respect for rank, structure, and responsibility. You don't have to like it. You DO have to understand it, especially as an officer. Some failures in that system don't make the system bad. They mean that the system is populated by imperfect people. The system can be improved, but not by wiping away it's foundations. If we based our military authority structure solely on the moral success or failure of the individuals, we'd have cast it aside right about the time Benedict Arnold decide he didn't like how things were being run here.

My favorite part about dodging wx is having an on coming car flash his lights at us as we're scud running around 15 feet AGL in a snow storm. I really wish that I would have WX CNXd that one.

I think this gets better by improving school choice for parents. Democrats would want you to believe that simply funneling more money to public schools fixes it but its not a total solution. Money does help but short of competition the schools have little incentive to improve. Teachers unions are a disaster and have completely become astray of any interest in the students. The bad thing about Chicago is the VAST majority of people there will never be able to afford private schooling. Mean private schooling cost is $25K/student and the average wage is still $60K/year. The JROTC academies have the potential to be something "nice" but the DoD is poorly invested in them and CPS is poorly invested in them. There is also a culture of sending problem children to military academies and not actually painting pathways to college or trade for them. Its creating a culture/perception that you see common in Democratic circles that the military is a pathway "for people who can't make it in life." NOT a place of excellence and achievement. And while JROTC does not advertise itself as a recruiting farm for the military, the city and the public school system push that narrative while trying to get rid of their social responsibility to deal with said problem children. What I'm trying to say is..... you are not getting a crop of top actors in some of these programs. And giving them some sense of artificial authority/power is not the right place to start. The right place to start is humility and a healthy ego smashing. Understanding that power and authority don't make you a better person, "more of a winner", its a role on a team. Like I've said, I'm not against JROTC at large. I think the program has value, but it should be built around the lowest common denominator, which right now, is unfortunately the inner city programs that account for 50% of all JROTC students. I'm sure the program is great for CH's son.... but I'll be frank.... I think CH is probably a pretty stellar parent and his son is going to be alright with or without JROTC, whether it has ranks or not. By the way, City of Chicago is hiring a lot of JROTC instructors right now if anyone is retiring soon and wants to help fix the problem.

Imagine a war without rip-its, no thanks.

I think that is what happened. But here’s the thing, there are thousands (probably tens of thousands unfortunately) stories just like this every year across high school and college campuses that have zero to do with cadet rank. It’s senior vs. freshman, he’s popular and she doesn’t want to go against that for fear of being ostracized, he’ll get me ______ if I do this (transactional), varsity vs. JV, first chair band vs. no chair band, etc. Perception of someone being “over” someone else is woven into the human fabric as Ratner pointed out. Thinking you can eradicate that is as stupid and naive as people like AOC/Greta regarding all their climate change bullshit. Rank may have been the thing in this specific situation you mentioned, but it is very likely this girl would have still found herself in this situation if JROTC didn’t even exist. Her problem isn’t JROTC or ranks, it’s her upbringing and caving to social pressures (that her parents didn’t prepare her for clearly).

Not sure what anything you have quoted so far has to do with JROTC ranks? I cringe every time I see "woke" used as its usually someone who turns out to be exactly like the stereotype I have pictured in my head saying it but that's for a different thread. Evil people abuse their positions of power whether their power comes from a silly JROTC rank or an upperclassmen/woman "hazing" an underclass"person". Same with JROTC instructors and teachers. You aren't preventing ANYTHING by taking away a title.

We are so bifurcated by the pundits that have to assume everything the other guy/girl does is wrong. I can't stand Biden, but he got this one right and I will certainly give credit where credit is due.

My fav...

We were using Vivarin back in the late 70s/early 80s, haven't heard that name in years! Didn't know they still sold the stuff! This was pretty popular as well...

I feel similarly about college as I do K-12. It’s bullshit and exists almost entirely to push narratives and maximize profits, while dragging Americans into debt (which begets a lot of profit). The only thing nowadays that college “makes sense” for is specific career paths that require a degree, such as doctor, engineer, or lawyer. Everyone else should go get actual training/education relevant to their chosen profession instead of wasting time and money on useless degrees.

You can't remove them, even amongst a seemingly small subgroup. They have and always will form. Bad ones can form, but the solution is not to get rid of it entirely. Doing so just means you aren't influencing the hierarchy that forms as the replacement. This is a huge reason why liberal policies fail so hard, so often. The hierarchy itself *is* the enemy, that which offends the liberal conscious (because they are not fair, and often exceedingly unfair). So why on earth would you replace a bad thing with another bad thing? Jordan Peterson talks about this often. The trick is to create a wide range of numerous hierarchies that allow for more people to find one they can excel in. This Chicago thing is about predators. They aren't caused by the hierarchy, so removing ranks won't fix it. Though it can give the appearance of "doing something," which quite often allows the real problem to persist.

In the late 90s, we used to do lines of Vivarin like Scar Face when I was a sheetmetal dude. I was tweaking removing all of those stuck screws on the Viper lol. Back then I lived on Malrboro Reds, Vivarin and Burger King. Lol

You won't be waiting as long as the new Lts. They try to prioritize guard/reserve and crossflows since we're just sitting around making money.

Chicago alone has over 30 public schools that charge on average around $35k/yr tuition and 0% of the students are grade level math proficient. One charges $52k/yr! Yeah I’d say there’s some massive problems in CPS, and cadet rank isn’t one of them. Chicago is a great example of incredible failure in so many spectrums of society. But I guess that’s what happens when you clearly have so many stupid people living together in one area - they get what they vote for.

You don't see how a quote from a 15yo girl who hid 9 months of sexual assaults out of fear it would endanger her ability to move through JROTC ranks might indicate that she was falsely fixated on the value of that rank over her own physical and mental well being? I guess my position would be 1.) Children are more often probably not psychology equipped to responsibly handle authority. Noone has articulated how a rank structure makes JROTC cadets better equipped to participate as US citizens in society. 2.) The rank structures in JROTC are not where the value in the program resides. I do believe retired AD can be excellent mentors to HS youth. But they don't need a rank structure to do that. The fundamentals of discipline, physical well-being, social charisma, etc... Can all still be there. There still are and should be strict lines of authority between cadre and cadets. But kids on their own often go very Lord of the Flies very quick, is my concern.

Exactly...he was losing that argument so he did a pivot to "the entire system is corrupt" then invoked Hitler...right out of the playbook.

Dear god...participation trophies for everyone, lets get rid of AP and honors classes, lets all put on our homogenized Chairman Mao suits so we look and act the same for indoctrination. Have you even been around one of these programs lately? I've watched my son the past two years and it has been nothing but stellar, Christ he spent more hours (200+), doing community service last year in JROTC than he did in SGA. I am not sure what team sports you played but I played football and baseball all four years and there most certainly was a rank structure. From JV to Varsity, backup to starters and god forbid to team CAPTAINS...how dare they use that rank structure moniker! For me rank was neither a privilege nor a "burden", it was a responsibility and I learned that responsibility by working my way up. I was a team captain as a junior and I knew that meant every single practice and every single game.

Yes, he meant JRTOC ranks and I disagree. It is a military based leadership program that teaches both leadership and followership, there is a purpose to ranks in that model that has been proven over a thousand years.

In case anyone is interested I got a note a few weeks ago saying CMP has a large lot of ammo they are going through and plan to soon release to the public.

Having sat in a bunch of Ops/MX meetings at Hurlburt, I can see why he drinks.

Found it https://www.instagram.com/p/Co7iNLOr91t/?igshid=MjkzY2Y1YTY=

Military "BOP" lol. ...and my exwife told me she loved me too. 😄

Both vital skills that enabled a variety of Rip-Its and snacks to be delivered to the forward bases us lowly Draco nerds inhabited. My thanks to the Talon community!

SocialD: I ran a simulation using historical pay charts for 2 guys who make O-6 in the reserve. Assumptions to simplify: both entered service & commissioned 1 Jan 1985, birthday 1 Jan, age at commissioning 23, served continuously, did not have a RRPA so started drawing retired pay at age 60. The first guy does his 3 yrs TIG as an O-6 and holds O-6 when he transfers to the Retired Reserve at age 46, Jan 2008, with 23 years of "active service". His high-36 is O-6 at >34 yrs for 2019, 2020, 2021: $11901, $12270, $12638=$12269. The 2nd guy does not do 3 yrs TIG as an O-6, but does only 1 yr as an O-6, and transfers to the Retired Reserve as an O-5 at age 44, Jan 2006, with 21 years of "active service". That one year he did as an O-6 in 2005 was $7763. His high-36 is O-5 at >34 years for 2019, 2020, 2021: $9521, $9816, $10111= $9816. As you can see, due to inflation of the pay charts, that one year he did as an O-6 way back in 2005 has no bearing on the high-36 calculation.

Gun porn. My babies have been in my buddies (F-111 WSO) safe for over 10+ years since I moved to Cap Hill. Finally got a chance to get down there and inspect/clean what was needed. Other than running a patch through a shotgun and my S&W M19 2.5” .357…..the rest of the family was as pretty as the day they went in there. Lesson: clean/oil before storage is you friend. Need to get out to the Quantico range if they will let us. Nothing like the feel of an M1 Garand or a Browning High Grade Ultra O/U, along with bro talk over morning coffee. Cheers ATIS

Keep dragging it up if you want. Maybe the rest of you are comfortable with a blatant violation of a direct order that doesn't even involve injecting yourself with a vaccine. And we wonder why so many airman can't take direction... But, to appease you all - yes, the masks were stupid. I've been asked to do a lot of stupid things in my career. Rarely have I seen one painted as such a political issue as this one.

CH.... why don't you take a step back and recognize that you probably only have a tiny sliver of the JROTC pie as well. I recommend you google Chicago Public Schools JROTC scandals and read through the dozens of pages of issues they've had with sexual violence, sexual cover up, discrimination and targeting of black and latino students. Your cozy suburb JROTC program might be a tight ship and well run. Almost 50% of JROTC participants though are inner city students who attend academy schools that have been plagued by underfunded and poorly ran programs for decades. I have no doubt the JROTC did some great things for maybe yourself and some people you know. The JROTC program, as a whole, has done more harm than good though when you consider that the largest student bodies effected by it were ran poorly without moral or ethical consideration to the outcomes of a child. Any officer who believes their rank holds their leadership, doesn't deserve their rank.

1.) 50%. It has negatively effected 50%. That is how many programs are under inner city public school programming and are failing. That's not "painting with a broad brush." That's systematically failing at stated goals. CPS is just one of dozens of school districts like it that are problematic right now. They also have the most recent scandal and the one that I believe would have led to a recommendation of removing cadet ranks. 2.) I don't give a shit about a 300 year old military tradition. We are talking about children and whether the militarization of children is a net positive for society. Do we really need a Komsomol or Hitler Youth clone stewarding out young ones? 3.) You guys keep bring up some arbitrary shit like 300 years, 1000 years, whatever.... As if I hadn't already spent a significant portion of my life choking on this bullshit already. Yes we all get it.... The military has rank. You know when it didn't fucking matter? When my group commander was also my navigator. Authority, command, rank... They all mean things, they are all innate to service, none of those values are neccessary to be successful as a highschool student and US citizen though (which is all JROTC purports to do).