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Aviation Continuation Pay (ACP - The Bonus)

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16 minutes ago, ColoradoAviator said:

This kind of additional pay is game changing. I had a conversation with my wife along the lines of, "I know we talked about airlines but what if I stayed in and earned $192K/year?"  Granted that conversation ended with "Haha - it'll never happen!"

That is equivalent to 3rd year pay at the airline, assuming you work 15 days a month.  And you’d still have no control over your life (179s, 365s, PCS, RPA, etc).

 

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On 4/21/2018 at 7:26 AM, hindsight2020 said:

AFRC AGR bonus for FY18 is 35K/yr throttable between 1 thru 3 year contracts, no apparent discount for renewal contract versus initial, which is a change from previous years. Also, everybody gets the 35K up to 24 YAS, which was the other big change. ART bonus is 18K/yr with one year minimum to a maximum contract length to 25YAS.

All in all, thanks for the free money Blue, but it's not changing the calculus of those who are intent on getting airline jobs. Once they get the airline job, they'll cash this bonus, but not a day before. Not sure how this changes anything in the AFRC. The TR invol IA are absolutely killing morale and retention down here, fix that instead. There's no pay problem here (well, TRs getting their flight pay still jacked up is a problem), only a QOL one, and its costing them the kitty, just like the regAF.

As to them going to a dedicated career field incentive pay on a year to year float index, to the tune of 6K/mo increase over today's water line? ROFL. You guys crack me up. 

 

 

Any links/ info on the ART bonus? 

Is it separate from the 25% we are getting as a "retention" bonus or is the 18% the permanent raise to the 558 pay tables they have been talking about for 6.69 yrs now?  

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5 hours ago, HeyWatchThis said:

Any links/ info on the ART bonus? 

Is it separate from the 25% we are getting as a "retention" bonus or is the 18% the permanent raise to the 558 pay tables they have been talking about for 6.69 yrs now?  

I dunno. It's part of the AvB FY18 AFRC bonus announcement on myPers, under Tier 2. But it's pretty clear it's a bonus contract, not a permanent raise to the 558 SSR tables. Payable at the anniversary of every full year accomplished (no credit for partial years accomplished) and can be agreed between one and whatever years you want, not to exceed 25YAS. Some other provisions in there I didn't care to read. But it's on mypers. 

 

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On 4/21/2018 at 5:23 PM, hindsight2020 said:

What do you mean "unlike" the airlines? That's not what @LookieRookie posted. He said the brief specifically mentioned pay that's re-assessed EVERY YEAR based on market indices specific to your civilian equivalent

I want zero to do with my hard-pay indexed to airline hiring. Soft pay, knock yourself out, but not hard-pay. That's why I don't support going to the doctor model for a 'pylet'. This skillset is simply not that market resilient in the civilian world. 

But this is all to do about nothing. This proposal has fvck all chance of getting passed by Congress. Stop loss has a higher chance of happening in earnest on FY20 than this pipedream. Either way, we're kind of a captive audience here in the mil side. The only play is to exit stage.

 

I mean that we can get doctors on the economy but we can’t go out and get pilots for the Air Force.  But for some reason the guy we can replace with a phone call gets a market-based and substantially larger bonus amount.  I’m thinking the service needs to prioritize a bit, especially since the cost of aviation ratings quickly approaches the cost of medicine.

Never said I want hard pay linked to the economy. But the bonus (I’m assuming this is what you mean with “soft pay”) should definitely link to the economy. The same logic that’s saying bail for the money and seniority says you want a bonus based on demand for your skill set. The market drying up means the bonus goes away regardless, so why not make it better?

Edited by war007afa

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That is equivalent to 3rd year pay at the airline, assuming you work 15 days a month.  And you’d still have no control over your life (179s, 365s, PCS, RPA, etc).
 

We had the same conversation about how much we could do with an extra $4k per month after taxes. However, is it worth screwing up our plans to separate and have some stability in our lives knowing I would just wind up getting out in 2 years when I get the 365 notification? Absolutely not.

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On 4/21/2018 at 6:26 AM, hindsight2020 said:

AFRC AGR bonus for FY18 is 35K/yr throttable between 1 thru 3 year contracts, no apparent discount for renewal contract versus initial, which is a change from previous years. Also, everybody gets the 35K up to 24 YAS, which was the other big change. ART bonus is 18K/yr with one year minimum to a maximum contract length to 25YAS.

All in all, thanks for the free money Blue, but it's not changing the calculus of those who are intent on getting airline jobs. Once they get the airline job, they'll cash this bonus, but not a day before. Not sure how this changes anything in the AFRC. The TR invol IA are absolutely killing morale and retention down here, fix that instead. There's no pay problem here (well, TRs getting their flight pay still jacked up is a problem), only a QOL one, and its costing them the kitty, just like the regAF.

As to them going to a dedicated career field incentive pay on a year to year float index, to the tune of 6K/mo increase over today's water line? ROFL. You guys crack me up. 

 

 

Any idea if you can stop the FY17 AGR bonus and sign a new FY18 one (more $$$)? 

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11 hours ago, MooseAg03 said:


We had the same conversation about how much we could do with an extra $4k per month after taxes. However, is it worth screwing up our plans to separate and have some stability in our lives knowing I would just wind up getting out in 2 years when I get the 365 notification? Absolutely not.

Agreed.  Maybe I’m just getting old, but the idea of more money to spend...in a place I didn’t choose to live, and getting deposited while I’m away from home for months on end AGAIN, all the while working for narrow minded leadership that doesn’t value my effort, just isn’t worth it.

The fact the airlines offer significantly better stability and also the same, or possibly much higher, salary makes this a no-brainer.

I will say I remember leaving AD and the fear of the unknown.  It took a couple years to realize that yes, I can say NO to things, I can live wherever I want, and my life can be about things other than work.

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23 hours ago, ColoradoAviator said:

6,000 per month x 12 months x 12471 pilots = $897,912,000.  Also know as $900 million or just shy of $1 billion.  No way in hell Congress approves this or even half this amount for more senior folks

The $6k a month is only paid to those after their UPT commitment is up, so the number is less than 12,471 pilots. We could probably find the right number in CH's "USAF is Screwed" thread and the good idea fairy slides.

I'd guess for the price of one F-35 a year it could happen. So I agree it isn't going to happen...

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They don’t give career field  incentive pay to doctors AFTER their commitment is up.....

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They don’t give career field  incentive pay to doctors AFTER their commitment is up.....

Aren’t doctors already doctors (for the most part) when they get here?

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1 hour ago, AlphaMikeFoxtrot said:


Aren’t doctors already doctors (for the most part) when they get here?

The AF still pays for many AF doctors' med school which incurs a commitment so not that much different than pilots.

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On 4/22/2018 at 6:10 PM, username said:

Any idea if you can stop the FY17 AGR bonus and sign a new FY18 one (more $$$)? 

Image result for u serious gif

 

u fvcking new, right? Cuz that's most fvcking new guy thing to ask I've heard this month. Just letting ya know. Return to Go do not collect $200 for you.

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On 4/22/2018 at 5:35 PM, hindsight2020 said:

I dunno. It's part of the AvB FY18 AFRC bonus announcement on myPers, under Tier 2. But it's pretty clear it's a bonus contract, not a permanent raise to the 558 SSR tables. Payable at the anniversary of every full year accomplished (no credit for partial years accomplished) and can be agreed between one and whatever years you want, not to exceed 25YAS. Some other provisions in there I didn't care to read. But it's on mypers. 

 

Looked it up this morning and for anyone else wondering......It is an ART bonus of $18k that is separate from the current 25% incentive bonus currently in place.  It requires you to be past your UPT commitment and less than 24 YAS.  Supposedly the 25% is going away very soon to be replaced with whatever your locality pay is so in my case, I am getting a ~7% cut from what I am making right now (our locality is 17.65% and I am not eligible for the ART bonus due to my UPT commitment)....I'm surprised they limited the ART bonus to guys outside their UPT commitment because my UPT commitment has 0 impact on whether I stay and ART or go airlines where-as another $18k/yr would entice me to stay around more when it's on top of the permanent raise....

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The $6k a month is only paid to those after their UPT commitment is up, so the number is less than 12,471 pilots. We could probably find the right number in CH's "USAF is Screwed" thread and the good idea fairy slides.
I'd guess for the price of one F-35 a year it could happen. So I agree it isn't going to happen...

Someone getting $1k per month flight pay plus the $35k bonus is already getting $4,000ish per month.

Let’s say 50% of the ~12k Pilots are eligible for the $2k bump = 6,000 Pilots x $2,000 x 12 mos = $144 million extra to budget for.

Doable when you think it can save training costs, that pays for itself if you retain 20-30 11F’s for a few years.

Rough pilot math but I’m not sure it’s so far fetched. That would put a 15yr O-4 at about $190k gross assuming a $1,750-2k BAH for garden spots like UPT bases.

I think it has potential. The real key is getting that experience to stay from 12-20 where the extra bump + pension will outweigh the airlines pay wise.....assuming we unf-ck lifestyle.

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On 4/20/2018 at 10:42 AM, LookieRookie said:

The bonus/flight pay is going away and to be replaced with professional pay FY20 ala doctors.

...

The example (separate from VCSAF) given was a major at the end of his UPT ADSC would be making around $6K PER Month additional right now.

The original explanation from LookieRookie was that this was a $6k bump on top of what's currently offered rather than just a $2k boost. Not sure if that example included the current bonus or not, though.

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1 minute ago, mcbush said:

The original explanation from LookieRookie was that this was a $6k bump on top of what's currently offered rather than just a $2k boost. Not sure if that example included the current bonus or not, though.

Negative, this was in lieu of the current flight pay structure.

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Copy that it's a replacement in lieu of the current system, but the word "additional" in Rookie's post suggested to me that dudes would come out $6k ahead compared to the current status quo, rather than $2k like di1630 used in his math above. 

Also copy that we're splitting hairs on RUMINT that may never see the light of day or that Big Blue may change its mind again by tomorrow, so who knows?

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20 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Image result for u serious gif

 

u fvcking new, right? Cuz that's most fvcking new guy thing to ask I've heard this month. Just letting ya know. Return to Go do not collect $200 for you.

Really?  Why so emotional?  Only affects me $5k/year, but worth asking.  Thanks for contributing zero.

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3 hours ago, mcbush said:

Copy that it's a replacement in lieu of the current system, but the word "additional" in Rookie's post suggested to me that dudes would come out $6k ahead compared to the current status quo, rather than $2k like di1630 used in his math above. 

Also copy that we're splitting hairs on RUMINT that may never see the light of day or that Big Blue may change its mind again by tomorrow, so who knows?

Based on the Secretary and Chief's testimony in Congress today... total RUMINT.

Maybe the AF figured out they could increase retention by floating bonus rumors for future FYs. Smart!

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/hearings/18-04-24-posture-of-the-department-of-the-air-force

I thought the entire thing was interesting for a few different reasons, but to zero in on the retention part you care about, the commitee said something to the effect of, "2000 pilots short... wah wah, wah wah wah wah." Chief replies, "Pilots joined to fly and we are increasing their flying hours to make that happen. We've also got QOL and Quality of Service initiatives... wah wah wah." Towards the end of the entire hearing, the committee says, "Thank you for your testimony... wah wah wah... now we understand that retaining pilots in the Air Force is not about the money and pilots just want to be pilots. Thank you for thanking us for helping you help them improve their quality of service in that area... wah wah wah."

Or something like that.

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20 minutes ago, Klepto said:

Towards the end of the entire hearing, the committee says, "Thank you for your testimony... wah wah wah... now we understand that retaining pilots in the Air Force is not about the money and pilots just want to be pilots. 

Well that’s the response you are going to get when you gather ten junior grade mouthpieces to testify before Congress that “it’s not about the money.”  You would need an “inception” to remove that mindset from Congress at this point. 

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From the testimony: “This budget boosts pipeline capacity, expands pilot training and addresses experience shortfalls, continues incentive pay and bonuses, improves administrative support at the squadron level, and funds flying hours to executable levels.”

Continues, not increases. I refuse to believe that Air Force leadership doesn’t understand market capitalism. I also refuse to believe that they can’t see the immense cost savings involved in not having to train replacements to backfill departing pilots. I really think it’s as simple as bureaucratic pride and not wanting to cede organizational control and influence to the line pilot peons.

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51 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

From the testimony: “This budget boosts pipeline capacity, expands pilot training and addresses experience shortfalls, continues incentive pay and bonuses, improves administrative support at the squadron level, and funds flying hours to executable levels.”

Continues, not increases. I refuse to believe that Air Force leadership doesn’t understand market capitalism. I also refuse to believe that they can’t see the immense cost savings involved in not having to train replacements to backfill departing pilots. I really think it’s as simple as bureaucratic pride and not wanting to cede organizational control and influence to the line pilot peons.

I think it is significant to note that the quote above is just a drop in the bucket from the written testimony they submitted beforehand, not actually what was said.

Neither incentive pay nor bonuses were mentioned in the verbal testimony. They only discussed QOL/QOS initiatives and increasing flight hours. It was definitely intentional that they omitted any talk about money. Judging by the commitee's response at the end, I think they got the point that they wanted them to get. That is... Pilots don't want money. They want to fly. And these initiatives will fix the pilot shortage.

I do think they understand market capitalism. They also communicated quite clearly that they do not like the 1500/750-hour rule "which other countries do not have," and welcomed the committee's support with respect to that and other national pilot training initiatives. They're not dumb.

Edited by Klepto

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