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COVID-19 (Aka China Virus)

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14 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

And did I mention Texas? Rhode Island law enforcement and the National Guard are doing door checks to see if there are any New Yorkers in the residence. New York has already said they'll sue and the ACLU is suing. If you actually read the link to the order you posted it states that:

So, what if DPS shows up at my door and I don't answer? Am I fined up to $1,000 and/or sent to jail for 180 days for not opening and talking to DPS? What compels me to even open the door?  Individual's constitutional rights aren't suspended due to a pandemic. Governors can pass whatever order they want, they'll never get past that whole Supremacy Clause thing and that whole 4th Amendment. If law enforcement conducts a "Terry Stop" on someone and finds out they should've been quarantined due to the order, they could face the fine and/or jail, that's legal. However, saying probable cause is based on someone having a New York license plate and/or randomly just knocking on doors inquiring about the individuals in there the domicile without a warrant or rights waived by the domicile owner, that's not fine.

https://turnto10.com/news/local/new-yorks-governor-cuomo-threatens-to-sue-ri

I want to believe this but the reality is court cases aren't always decided straight up on the constitutionality of the outcome. The reality is courts are highly politicized and I could see even the supreme court upholding a state governments rights to enforce public health measures as a matter of states rights. 

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15 hours ago, FLEA said:

Uhhh wait.... "what's good for me is not for thee?" Is that your take on this? 

Of course not FLEA, our governor’s take has always been that anyone is welcome to Texas, as long as they don’t bring New York / California politics here and take up a liking to Shiner Bock.  That is reasonable is it not? As for COVID, if you have it, now is not the time to take a road trip wouldn’t you say?

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From some minor amount of research yesterday, law allows feds and states to legally isolate sick people to prevent/minimize spread, and it allows them to quarantine those who have been exposed. For those of the populace who are not sick or there’s no probable cause to say they been exposed, it is not legal to prevent interstate travel or force quarantine. Ethicists generally don’t have a legal problem with social distancing, but they do have a problem with forced business closures that could operate semi-normally, while taking social distancing measures. 
 

So, while I hate CA and NY politics as much as I hate China, it’s anti-liberty (and illegal is most cases) to say those people can’t travel elsewhere or have to imprison themselves in a house for any amount of time (unless the two exceptions stated above). I realize there are no interstate travel bans yet, but there already are illegal quarantine measures telling people they can’t leave the house except for a couple destinations. We are absolutely starting to unravel liberty in the name of “safety,” something that has happened many times throughout history and is something that must be fought. 

History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.” Nailed it.

 

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50 minutes ago, brabus said:

We are absolutely starting to unravel liberty in the name of “safety,” something that has happened many times throughout history and is something that must be fought. 

History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.” Nailed it.

 

While I think the probability of this whole thing being engineered toward a desired end is low, I think the probability of law(rule) makers taking advantage of the situation to restrict liberties is high. I recently read that the Patriot Act provisions were once again extended just a couple weeks ago. I'm not saying I disagree with everything in the Patriot Act, but it is still a restriction of liberty. The lesson being: Once these measures are enacted, they often tend to stay enacted. To anyone cheering the Texas travel restrictions by executive order, how long are you willing to sleep in that bed?

The next question being, how to you fight for liberty when your movements are restricted?

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There's a balance between individual liberties and the needs of a functioning society. Generally, you have the full right to pursue life/liberty/happiness, so long as you aren't infringing on the right of others to pursue life/liberty/happiness.

A lot of the measures being implemented now for covid-19 are similar to the measures implemented during 1918 Spanish flu. So there's already precedent, and we've gotten through it. Also, the laws allowing quarantine are already on the books, and have been for almost a century.

What seems to be different is that long distance travel was much harder than it is now. People aren't staying home if they are sick, which is spreading the disease much faster.

On one hand, the right to individual liberty says that an infected/contagious person should be able to do whatever they want. On the other hand, an infected/contagious person spreading disease negatively impacts the right to life and happiness of other people if they are given the disease.

So where is the balance? Where should the line be drawn to balance individual liberties against the liberty/life of others?

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51 minutes ago, jazzdude said:


So where is the balance? Where should the line be drawn to balance individual liberties against the liberty/life of others?

Great points and great questions. My concern is that these curtailing of liberties are so widely and immediately accepted. When it's needed, every instance should be scrutinized and required to have a detailed sunset provision with a very high threshold for renewal.

We need to be very wary of allowing rule by executive order (or rule by decree). Check out today's news from Hungary. WTF:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/31/coronavirus-in-hungary-viktor-orban-rules-by-decree-indefinitely.html

 

 

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7 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

So prisoners are being released due to the crowded conditions in a jail increasing the spread of this disease yet...

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/to-enforce-coronavirus-distancing-police-say-arrests-are-last-resort/ar-BB11XppY?ocid=spartanntp

My longtime friend and neighbor is a vice cop for a medium sized city. Yesterday, his Chief told him to stop taking vacation days, and simply not come to work. He doesn't want any of his guys pursuing those types of crimes then showing up at the station to do the admin processes.

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4 minutes ago, torqued said:

My longtime friend and neighbor is a vice cop for a medium sized city. Yesterday, his Chief told him to stop taking vacation days, and simply not come to work. He doesn't want any of his guys pursuing those types of crimes then showing up at the station to do the admin processes.

So long as you keep that purchase of Hos under 10 it’s party time!!  Unlike the quote/guidance from Full Metal Jacket, don’t bang the ones that cough.

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Great points and great questions. My concern is that these curtailing of liberties are so widely and immediately accepted. When it's needed, every instance should be scrutinized and required to have a detailed sunset provision with a very high threshold for renewal.
We need to be very wary of allowing rule by executive order (or rule by decree). Check out today's news from Hungary. WTF:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/31/coronavirus-in-hungary-viktor-orban-rules-by-decree-indefinitely.html
 
 


Definitely agree on sunset provisions. The authority to quarantine is in law, activated by executive order. So in theory the other branches of government should act as the check/balance. But then again, Congress has been gridlocked for the better part of the decade, so, yeah.
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1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

So long as you keep that purchase of Hos under 10 it’s party time!!  Unlike the quote/guidance from Full Metal Jacket, don’t bang the ones that cough.

It's just this kind of thinking and can-do spirit that got us through the Great Depression, Dubya-dubya two, and now the Black Death...

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There are informal "no contact unless felony level or above" orders for a lot of police departments.  

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Posted (edited)

Damn. Unreal. Chilling...

USS Teddy Roosevelt "urgently asking" for help.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6821571/TR-COVID-19-Assistance-Request.pdf

 

7. Conclusion. Decisive action is required. Removing the majority of personnel from a
deployed US. nuclear aircraft carrier and isolating them for two weeks may seem like an
extraordinary measure. A portion of the crew (approximately 10%) would have to stay aboard to 
run the reactor plant, sanitize the ship, ensure security, and provide for contingency response to
emergencies. This is a necessary risk. It will enable the carrier and air wing to get back
underway as quickly as possible while ensuring the health and safety of our Sailors. Keeping
over 4,000 young men and women on board the TR is an unnecessary risk and breaks faith with
those Sailors entrusted to our care.

There are challenges associated with securing individualized lodging for our crew. This will
require a political solution but it is the right thing to do. We are not at war. Sailors do not need
to die. If we do not act now, we are failing to pr0perly take care of our most trusted asset our
Sailors.

Request all available resources to ?nd NAVADMIN and CDC compliant quarantine rooms for
my entire crew as soon as possible.

 

Edited by torqued
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Posted (edited)
Quote

Here is a Harvard professor literally suggesting fascism.

If we're active duty can we write letters to an editor?  I'm feeling unusually compelled to highlight that f*ckstick's fascist ideas as such.

Edited by wazzuPIC
cuss word workaround

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11 hours ago, jazzdude said:

The authority to quarantine is in law, activated by executive order

To be clear, only authority to quarantine those who have been exposed. Prove I’ve been exposed and then you can legally quarantine me in my house. Until then, go fuck yourself, I’ll leave my house when I damn well please. Doesn’t mean I won’t be smart about it (6’ distancing, won’t go throw a block party, etc.) There are people saying we shouldn’t be allowed to go for a run or ride a bike; that’s the line they’ve fully crossed. 

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Until then, go yourself, I’ll leave my house when I damn well please. Doesn’t mean I won’t be smart about it (6’ distancing, won’t go throw a block party, etc.) There are people saying we shouldn’t be allowed to go for a run or ride a bike; that’s the line they’ve fully crossed. 


That seems to be the challenge with this, not enough testing combined with a long incubation period where one could be infected/contagious before feeling sick and getting tested, which leads to the disease spreading.

As for being smart about it, it's why we can't have nice things. Lots of people out there aren't. Why not throw a block party? It's you're right to do what you want.

I'm in a locked down state (NJ). Still allowed to go out and run, leave the house, etc. But pretty much asked to avoid going out of you don't have to, and to not gather in large groups.

If the general public voluntarily stays in and minimizes going out except for essentials, we won't need heavy handed laws or executive orders to force it. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
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8 hours ago, wazzuPIC said:

If we're active duty can we write letters to an editor?  I'm feeling unusually compelled to highlight that f*ckstick's fascist ideas as such.

As long as you refrain from using your rank, affiliation with the military, or anything that would imply an endorsement or opinion of the military, go for it. 

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6 hours ago, brabus said:

To be clear, only authority to quarantine those who have been exposed. Prove I’ve been exposed and then you can legally quarantine me in my house. Until then, go fuck yourself, I’ll leave my house when I damn well please. Doesn’t mean I won’t be smart about it (6’ distancing, won’t go throw a block party, etc.) There are people saying we shouldn’t be allowed to go for a run or ride a bike; that’s the line they’ve fully crossed. 

This is exactly why I think the US will be hardest hit. Our freedom is awesome, but plenty of people will say "I thought this was America, I'll do what I want!" I agree with you that we need to protect our freedom from being attacked, but I also think we are going to pay a price for that. China can effectively fight it because they just point a gun at everyone and say don't leave your house. Not what I want, but it works. 

 

Just to be clear, I think the price is worth it in the end.

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Just an update, girlfriend has strong chest pain/shortness of breath about a week after the fever/aches/chills ceased.

Took her to the ER, and apparently it’s becoming very common in people who kick the COVID and don’t have pneumonia. The virus causes inflammation along the lung wall, and (allegedly) strikes a week or so later for some because the body is trying to repair that damage. She was prescribed muscle relaxers and she says it’s the first time she’s had a full breath in a long time.

Just in case one of you guys see/experience something similar in a family or friend.

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17 hours ago, torqued said:

Damn. Unreal. Chilling...

USS Teddy Roosevelt "urgently asking" for help.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6821571/TR-COVID-19-Assistance-Request.pdf

 


7. Conclusion. Decisive action is required. Removing the majority of personnel from a
deployed US. nuclear aircraft carrier and isolating them for two weeks may seem like an
extraordinary measure. A portion of the crew (approximately 10%) would have to stay aboard to 

run the reactor plant, sanitize the ship, ensure security, and provide for contingency response to
emergencies. This is a necessary risk. It will enable the carrier and air wing to get back
underway as quickly as possible while ensuring the health and safety of our Sailors. Keeping
over 4,000 young men and women on board the TR is an unnecessary risk and breaks faith with
those Sailors entrusted to our care.

There are challenges associated with securing individualized lodging for our crew. This will
require a political solution but it is the right thing to do. We are not at war. Sailors do not need
to die. If we do not act now, we are failing to pr0perly take care of our most trusted asset our
Sailors.

Request all available resources to ?nd NAVADMIN and CDC compliant quarantine rooms for
my entire crew as soon as possible.

 

Huh, an 0-6.

CINCPAC from CMDR ROOSEVELT

AM IMMEDIATELY TAKING SAILORS OFF THE SHIP TO QUARANTINE.  ALL MEASURES TAKEN FOR SECURITY AND DISINFECTION OF SHIP.

HAVE NICE DAY.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, MCO said:

This is exactly why I think the US will be hardest hit. Our freedom is awesome, but plenty of people will say "I thought this was America, I'll do what I want!" I agree with you that we need to protect our freedom from being attacked, but I also think we are going to pay a price for that. China can effectively fight it because they just point a gun at everyone and say don't leave your house. Not what I want, but it works. 

 

Just to be clear, I think the price is worth it in the end.

About China effectively fighting it...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says

And it's not clear that all this quarantining is going to do anything except push the bulk of the infections to the right.  CDC says we're 12-18 months from a vaccine... Anyone want to stay locked in their house for a year?

https://medium.com/@wpegden/a-call-to-honesty-in-pandemic-modeling-5c156686a64b?fbclid=IwAR3_PJfSdmpVrYEi0W4YWt3sJH-rw-WbA4nHB8In36S1lXq274ODFqVcR-M

Edited by pawnman

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And it's not clear that all this quarantining is going to do anything except push the bulk of the infections to the right.  CDC says we're 12-18 months from a vaccine... Anyone want to stay locked in their house for a year?

My understanding is that pushing it to the right has been (and still is) the goal, i.e. Flattening the curve so limited health care resource's aren't overwhelmed.

If done right, it hopefully buys us time to ramp up medical capacity (including equipment like ventilators and PPE for medical workers) and increasing the availability of testing, and allowing relaxing how aggressive we are with social distancing/staying home when you aren't sick/reopening businesses, etc. Then again, this assumes Congress, the president, and the state governors working together quickly to ease the burden on the general population.

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2 hours ago, jazzdude said:


 


My understanding is that pushing it to the right has been (and still is) the goal, i.e. Flattening the curve so limited health care resource's aren't overwhelmed.

If done right, it hopefully buys us time to ramp up medical capacity (including equipment like ventilators and PPE for medical workers) and increasing the availability of testing, and allowing relaxing how aggressive we are with social distancing/staying home when you aren't sick/reopening businesses, etc. Then again, this assumes Congress, the president, and the state governors working together quickly to ease the burden on the general population.

Sure... But you're only flattening the current curve.  There will eventually be a spike, and that spike will almost certainly outpace medical readiness no matter how long we wait.

Couple that with all the medically necessary but non-urgent procedures (removing tumors, replacing hips, reconstructing shoulders, etc) being cancelled and you've got a real fun time when both bills come due together.

The article even suggests we're going to make it worse by pushing the spike into November and December, when it's colder, people are already more vulnerable, and there's a lot more demand for gathering and travel than March/April.

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