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norskman

UPT Next

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16 hours ago, Homestar said:

I get what you’re saying, but it doesn’t make sense to give a kid a poster and tell him to chairfly in his mind anymore. We need to leverage tech. The status quo is no longer accomplishing the mission (apparently).

I'm not saying "do what we have always done" or "F that high tech wizardry." I'm just tired of leadership claiming that the new generation can learn with less experience because they had smart phones as kids.  It's a poor justification of continual cuts to the training pipeline.  Now ops units have to do as much training as the FTU to get mission capable co-pilots, and they still barely have basic skills down.  (That's a knock against the training program, not the students.)

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6 hours ago, raimius said:

I'm not saying "do what we have always done" or "F that high tech wizardry." I'm just tired of leadership claiming that the new generation can learn with less experience because they had smart phones as kids.  It's a poor justification of continual cuts to the training pipeline.  Now ops units have to do as much training as the FTU to get mission capable co-pilots, and they still barely have basic skills down.  (That's a knock against the training program, not the students.)

That’s fair. But every time I hear Gen Wills speak he knows that you can’t replace time in the seat. But I think the pilot shortage is a strategic problem that could render the AF ineffective against a peer threat. Which is the greater problem?

I’m not smart on the ins and outs of teaching methods used by PTN but if there’s a better way to instruct than what we’re doing I would love to find it. 
 

I’m not convinced that mishap trends today are a result of 20 fewer hours in UPT. I definitely think the AF should research it tho. 

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7 minutes ago, Homestar said:

That’s fair. But every time I hear Gen Wills speak he knows that you can’t replace time in the seat. But I think the pilot shortage is a strategic problem that could render the AF ineffective against a peer threat. Which is the greater problem?

I’m not smart on the ins and outs of teaching methods used by PTN but if there’s a better way to instruct than what we’re doing I would love to find it. 
 

I’m not convinced that mishap trends today are a result of 20 fewer hours in UPT. I definitely think the AF should research it tho. 

Crashing too many jets will also render the AF ineffective 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Homestar said:

That’s fair. But every time I hear Gen Wills speak he knows that you can’t replace time in the seat. But I think the pilot shortage is a strategic problem that could render the AF ineffective against a peer threat. Which is the greater problem?

I’m not smart on the ins and outs of teaching methods used by PTN but if there’s a better way to instruct than what we’re doing I would love to find it. 
 

I’m not convinced that mishap trends today are a result of 20 fewer hours in UPT. I definitely think the AF should research it tho. 

That's a legit point but the greater threat could be creating a cohort of weak pilots / officers who in other times of less desperation would have been more thoroughly tested and filtered, likely eliminating some. 

Not having enough pilots is a problem, having a potentially weak cohort of pilots / officers is likely a worse problem.

If the GOs believe this is just about having meat in the seats then they just need to implement a Warrant Officer program for some X percentage of the rated force in the AF and get it over with.  

Edited by Clark Griswold

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Homestar said:

I’m not convinced that mishap trends today are a result of 20 fewer hours in UPT. I definitely think the AF should research it tho. 

*spits out drink* 20!? Try 50, plus a heck of a lot less solos, night and cat checks, between my generation's year groups (TAMI/no-fighter lost decade days) and the FY18 benchmark that was used on the last email chain we exchanged on the topic in Jan 2019. 

Edited by hindsight2020
Grammerz

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5 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

*spits out drink* 20!? Try 50, plus a heck of a lot less solos, night and cat checks, between my generation's year groups (TAMI/no-fighter lost decade days) and the FY18 benchmark that was used on the last email chain we exchanged on the topic in Jan 2019. 

Primacy of learning is a concept Air Force leadership does not grasp. Learning to do something correctly the first time by getting the right quality and quantity of training is far more efficient than guys trying to relearn basic pilot shit in the midst of 5-10 years of upgrade training (MQT, FLUG/AC, IPUG, Msn Commander, Weapons School, SEFE, etc.).

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1 hour ago, Seriously said:

Primacy of learning is a concept Air Force leadership does not grasp. Learning to do something correctly the first time by getting the right quality and quantity of training is far more efficient than guys trying to relearn basic pilot shit in the midst of 5-10 years of upgrade training (MQT, FLUG/AC, IPUG, Msn Commander, Weapons School, SEFE, etc.).

Are you trying to say the CAF should not have to teach the basics because it should already be known? 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

(That's a knock against the training program, not the students.)

I'll play devils advocate, but does anyone think the quality of student is actually degrading as well?

I've seen it in every single facet of my career/life so far. The inability of younger folks to think critically. I've seen it outside the military in the business world, in grad school, in civ flight training, and I've seen it in the military world of course. The ability for younger folks to figure stuff out on their own seems to be attriting so rapidly. I'm not sure what causes it, whether it is being coddled by technology or what, but I'm a firm believer that our world/education system seems to be spitting out weaker individuals.

Sure the kids these days are super bright and are geniuses that can work through a million lines of complex computer code in 5 minutes but somehow can't figure out simple tasks. No matter how much technology we throw at it, basic solid decision making skills just seem harder to come by. (and more time in the real thing seems to be the only way to learn those)

I feel like I'm turning into that old guy talking bout "kids with their darn technology" but I swear it is having a negative effect. Anyone else seeing the same thing or I am just turning into that guy...

Edited by jonlbs
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10 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

*spits out drink* 20!? Try 50, plus a heck of a lot less solos, night and cat checks, between my generation's year groups (TAMI/no-fighter lost decade days) and the FY18 benchmark that was used on the last email chain we exchanged on the topic in Jan 2019. 

Valid shot. I don’t know how many hours students are getting now. I graduated with 285 student hours in 2004. Would be interesting to know when that cut started and what the hours are at now. I know that MIF from T-1 AMF MIF is lower than when I graduated. And that’s too bad. 
 

However, many of the mishaps that have caused these CSAF videos are involving experienced crews (with some tragic exceptions). I do believe we have questions that need to be addressed. But I’m also open to testing new methods of flight instruction. 

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59 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Valid shot. I don’t know how many hours students are getting now. I graduated with 285 student hours in 2004. Would be interesting to know when that cut started and what the hours are at now. I know that MIF from T-1 AMF MIF is lower than when I graduated. And that’s too bad. 
 

However, many of the mishaps that have caused these CSAF videos are involving experienced crews (with some tragic exceptions). I do believe we have questions that need to be addressed. But I’m also open to testing new methods of flight instruction. 

Might have been sooner than you expected because I only remember getting slightly more than 100 in phase 2 and 3 each before I graduated and they was in 2011. 

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2 hours ago, jonlbs said:

I'll play devils advocate, but does anyone think the quality of student is actually degrading as well?

I've seen it in every single facet of my career/life so far. The inability of younger folks to think critically. I've seen it outside the military in the business world, in grad school, in civ flight training, and I've seen it in the military world of course. The ability for younger folks to figure stuff out on their own seems to be attriting so rapidly. I'm not sure what causes it, whether it is being coddled by technology or what, but I'm a firm believer that our world/education system seems to be spitting out weaker individuals.

Sure the kids these days are super bright and are geniuses that can work through a million lines of complex computer code in 5 minutes but somehow can't figure out simple tasks. No matter how much technology we throw at it, basic solid decision making skills just seem harder to come by. (and more time in the real thing seems to be the only way to learn those)

I feel like I'm turning into that old guy talking bout "kids with their darn technology" but I swear it is having a negative effect. Anyone else seeing the same thing or I am just turning into that guy...

They’ve been saying this about the next generation since the beginning of time.

Children; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room, they contradict their parents and tyrannize their teachers. Children are now tyrants.“ - Socrates

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3 hours ago, FLEA said:

Might have been sooner than you expected because I only remember getting slightly more than 100 in phase 2 and 3 each before I graduated and they was in 2011. 

In 2009 I had just under 190 flight hours for UPT. 

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4 hours ago, Homestar said:

I graduated with 285 student hours in 2004. Would be interesting to know when that cut started and what the hours are at now.

Just popped out of UPT recently with 143.5 hours split just about down the middle between T6 and T1.

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29 minutes ago, FDNYOldGuy said:

Just popped out of UPT recently with 143.5 hours split just about down the middle between T6 and T1.

Fact checking myself. I pulled my TR from UPT: 89 hours T-37, 104 hours T-1, 70 hours T-1/T-37 simulator. So, 193 hours in aircraft + 70 sim.

 

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1 hour ago, Homestar said:

Fact checking myself. I pulled my TR from UPT: 89 hours T-37, 104 hours T-1, 70 hours T-1/T-37 simulator. So, 193 hours in aircraft + 70 sim.

 

Actually looked myself up as well and it was 193 for me, went to Corpus for phase 3 and had a few BIT rides due to aircraft mx. 

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3 minutes ago, JeremiahWeed said:

31 year old data from 1989 hasn’t changed much. 
196 total in UPT

86 T-37, 110 T-38

 

 

6 hours ago, FDNYOldGuy said:

Just popped out of UPT recently with 143.5 hours split just about down the middle between T6 and T1.

FDNY is the only data point within the last few years so far, and he is significantly less (about 40-50 as 2020 pointed out). Otherwise, agree, it was pretty constant from your 1989 to about 2012 ish based on available data. 

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22 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

*spits out drink* 20!? Try 50, plus a heck of a lot less solos, night and cat checks, between my generation's year groups (TAMI/no-fighter lost decade days) and the FY18 benchmark that was used on the last email chain we exchanged on the topic in Jan 2019. 

UPT-H (Fort Rucker) has a current SGTO executing an ~88 hr syllabus (students have no prior IFT or T-6 time) that was reduced from a little over 100 hrs. The goal in the reduction was to make a better helicopter pilot. 

https://www.airforcemag.com/helicopter-pilot-training-experiment-skips-fixed-wing-courses/

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Current UPT stud, finished T6s with 74 hours, prog’d for 60 some odd total hours in T1s. 

I probably had 6-7 more hours in T6 land than most of my T1 bound classmates because of some unfortunate weather related BIT rides, 38 dudes had more rides for form stuff.

Not sure how many sim hours we’ve gotten but also not sure how much those hours are really worth

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I'll play devils advocate, but does anyone think the quality of student is actually degrading as well?
I've seen it in every single facet of my career/life so far. The inability of younger folks to think critically. I've seen it outside the military in the business world, in grad school, in civ flight training, and I've seen it in the military world of course.


When I was instructing at UPT, I used to think, "man, was I that dumb when I was a LT?"

This thought was then closely followed by "well, yeah, probably"
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So the real question; they are obviously trying to increase throughout on the input side (UPT).  What the hell are they doing to decrease output and increase retention of your 12 year Majors? People will eventually chill out about Covid (most likely after the election,) and all indicators show that the airlines will recover.  Is the Air Force doing anything to address retention? 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2020 at 6:50 AM, Sprkt69 said:

Are you trying to say the CAF should not have to teach the basics because it should already be known? 

To an extent, yes, I don’t think we should have to. Spending 1/2 a sortie doing tac turns and rejoins because the dude can’t even do that right is beyond egregious for an MQT sortie. The basic shit that gets fucked up should take less than 5 min of the debrief, not a large portion of the debrief. This doesn’t apply to every new guy by any means, but it sure applies to far too many of them. 

As far as the hours discussion, we had guys from the viper FTU show up with 70...I had 90, and with no extra rides. 20 hrs in those initial days of flying a fighter are HUGE. 
 

I don’t think the quality of student has decreased, but the lack of air time quantity/lowered standards is what’s crushing our flying force. That said, the F-35 FTU has been producing some great wingman, and I really mean that. But unfortunately, that’s probably because we’re still riding the wave of getting the top performers...that’s going to change in the near future. 

Edited by brabus

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, brabus said:

That said, the F-35 FTU has been producing some great wingman, and I really mean that. But unfortunately, that’s probably because we’re still riding the wave of getting the top performers...that’s going to change in the near future. 

Very interested about trying to get into the 35 if I can make it work (ie. Not suck and fly airplanes good). Any idea if this is going to be a gradual shift or if it'll suddenly be like it is now where you get a viper and you get a viper, everyone gets a viper out of UPT? 

Ended T-6s with 90 hours and no ride repeats or extra rides. Also contrary to popular opinion you can still be kicked out of UPT and/or pursued to DOR. Probably not as much as the past but still happens

Edited by Air_Space

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UPT-H (Fort Rucker) has a current SGTO executing an ~88 hr syllabus (students have no prior IFT or T-6 time) that was reduced from a little over 100 hrs. The goal in the reduction was to make a better helicopter pilot. 
https://www.airforcemag.com/helicopter-pilot-training-experiment-skips-fixed-wing-courses/
I had over 100 hours with T-6 time. WTF

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UPT-H (Fort Rucker) has a current SGTO executing an ~88 hr syllabus (students have no prior IFT or T-6 time) that was reduced from a little over 100 hrs. The goal in the reduction was to make a better helicopter pilot. 
https://www.airforcemag.com/helicopter-pilot-training-experiment-skips-fixed-wing-courses/


Zero fixed wing time?

Sounds like a good way to make sure someone can’t ever leave the helicopter community...

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