Jump to content

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

To be clearer though, you are surprised that a president who was previously a reality TV show host who's tagline was "you're fired" is firing people at an ABOVE AVERAGE rate? You find that surprising? I'm surprised with your surprise.

Comparing Trump (who has been an executive for decades) with Obama (who had never been an executive) is not a valid comparison. WTF had Obama led before he became the leader of the free world? Seriously?

He was a U.S. Senator, which last time I checked, is sorta a big deal. 

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 5.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Want to slash American carbon?  Build nuclear power plants.  

When MSNBC announced Trump's win in Iowa, there was an audible grunt from Rachel Madow. By the sound of it, she apparently sat on her sack wrong. Happens to the best of us.

Found this entertaining Because screw that bitch and her "it's my turn" mentality. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Posted Images

37 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

That doesn’t address the question: Does a junior Senator actually lead anything?

Subjective, he was the Chairman for the Subcommittee on European Affairs. He was law school professor, State Senator, and U.S. Senator. To skip being a Rep in the House to go being a U.S. Senator that young is pretty amazing.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Guardian said:

And if they do, are they automatically assumed to be a good leader just because they have reached the senate?

The MAF considers one to be a good leader because they're good at tracking/editing awards & decs, performance reports, and setting up holiday parties. YMMV.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

He was a U.S. Senator, which last time I checked, is sorta a big deal. 

Shoot, I meant to make my post about the guy being a big deal in another thread - my bad. Also, you forgot to mention he was a community organizer, too. Which, also, makes him a big deal.

41 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

Subjective, he was the Chairman for the Subcommittee on European Affairs. He was law school professor, State Senator, and U.S. Senator. To skip being a Rep in the House to go being a U.S. Senator that young is pretty amazing.

That is amazing - but we were talking about executive-level decision-making.

38 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

The MAF considers one to be a good leader because they're good at tracking/editing awards & decs, performance reports, and setting up holiday parties. YMMV.

This is basically the exact corollary to Obama (i.e one who "checks all the boxes" sts) - are you saying the Obamas in the MAF are where they should be?

Edited by ViperMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

Subjective, he was the Chairman for the Subcommittee on European Affairs. He was law school professor, State Senator, and U.S. Senator. To skip being a Rep in the House to go being a U.S. Senator that young is pretty amazing.

Sure, he was good at speaking and was charismatic and academically knows law, but is that providing leadership opportunities? Not in the same way JFK had to as a PT boat skipper, I would argue, if you want to look at young political wonders. 
 

Kind of like MAF HPOs from Phoenix to your reference, I guess the way I look at it. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ViperMan said:
To be clearer though, you are surprised that a president who was previously a reality TV show host who's tagline was "you're fired" is firing people at an ABOVE AVERAGE rate? You find that surprising? I'm surprised with your surprise.
Comparing Trump (who has been an executive for decades) with Obama (who had never been an executive) is not a valid comparison. WTF had Obama led before he became the leader of the free world? Seriously?


I'll bite.

Not surprised with Trump. Surprised with people's continued defense of his actions/"leadership". Surprised officers think Trump has any leadership skills whatsoever. Surprised it isn't clearly, painfully obvious that he has way less leadership capability than virtually every president in recent history.

I wasn't a fan of Obama before or during his presidency, but he clearly exhibited more leadership capability than Trump has at any point during his 4 years. By yours and the other points made here, making decisions doesn't equate to leadership. Being an executive, running multiple failed companies doesn't equate to leadership. Being a reality TV personality doesn't equate to leadership.

By your question, I take it to mean a person has no place running the Free world without massive experience in leadership? In your incredibly wise opinion, what's that bar/limit?

AF officers have no place in most leadership capacities by your logic. "Leading" a two, fourship or , whoa, an LFE is actual leadership? Leading a squadron with maybe 100 people? Stop kidding yourself. MX officers have twice as much leadership as most of us pilots by the time they're Captains, but that's heresy in the pilot's AF. People get offended, but you are being hypocritical saying Obama had no leadership experience when you claim your own experience is actually leadership. Trump made for "ok" reality TV, that's it. He's been a failure who was given a massive jumpstart by daddy, and survived off name recognition the rest of the time. I'm using some hyperbole, but you get the idea...

I'd almost guarantee that most of the intelligent people in this board, if I were able to give them the amount of money Trump was given by his daddy, would be just as rich if not moreso by now. With a much less questionable history (you know, misogyny, disgusting comments about dating his daughter, and clear evidence of racism) and a lot less bankruptcies...

But Trump is a great leader, sure.

7 hours ago, SurelySerious said:
Sure, he was good at speaking and was charismatic and academically knows law, but is that providing leadership opportunities? Not in the same way JFK had to as a PT boat skipper, I would argue, if you want to look at young political wonders. 
 
Kind of like MAF HPOs from Phoenix to your reference, I guess the way I look at it. 


Seriously, a PT boat skipper equates for you? You're probably in the group that includes leading an LFE as massive leadership experience and thinks a fighter pilot could easily lead any other type of squadron because they know BFM...

People often aren't prepared for the govt position they're given. They are surrounded by people invested in ensuring they have good advice and help. Most depend on that. Some, Trump, ignore it because they "know" better than everyone. Trump's publicly claimed as much. He knows more than his generals about all the military decisions he's made. He said so... Great leader. You guys win.

ETA: Let me clarify that while I do acknowledge leading in combat and even in LFEs is actual leadership, my point is that it is a very specific form of leadership that doesn’t slice across all situations nicely. I’ve led in the flying world and the non-flying world. Two different animals.
 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by slackline
typing on an iPhone sucks...
  • Like 3
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, slackline said:


I'll bite.

Not surprised with Trump. Surprised with people's continued defense of his actions/"leadership". Surprised officers think Trump has any leadership skills whatsoever. Surprised it isn't clearly, painfully obvious that he has way less leadership capability than virtually every president in recent history.

I wasn't a fan of Obama before or during his presidency, but he clearly exhibited more leadership capability than Trump has at any point during his 4 years. By yours and the other points made here, making decisions doesn't equate to leadership. Being an executive, running multiple failed companies doesn't equate to leadership. Being a reality TV personality doesn't equate to leadership.

By your question, I take it to mean a person has no place running the Free world without massive experience in leadership? In your incredibly wise opinion, what's that bar/limit?

AF officers have no place in most leadership capacities by your logic. "Leading" a two, fourship or , whoa, an LFE is actual leadership? Leading a squadron with maybe 100 people? Stop kidding yourself. MX officers have twice as much leadership as most of us pilots by the time they're Captains, but that's heresy in the pilot's AF. People get offended, but you are being hypocritical saying Obama had no leadership experience when you claim your own experience is actually leadership. Trump made for "ok" reality TV, that's it. He's been a failure who was given a massive jumpstart by daddy, and survived off name recognition the rest of the time. I'm using some hyperbole, but you get the idea...

I'd almost guarantee that most of the intelligent people in this board, if I were able to give them the amount of money Trump was given by his daddy, would be just as rich if not moreso by now. With a much less questionable history (you know, misogyny, disgusting comments about dating his daughter, and clear evidence of racism) and a lot less bankruptcies...

But Trump is a great leader, sure.


Seriously, a PT boat skipper equates for you? You're probably in the group that includes leading an LFE as massive leadership experience and thinks a fighter pilot could easily lead any other type of squadron because they know BFM...

People often aren't prepared for the govt position they're given. They are surrounded by people invested in ensuring they have good advice and help. Most depend on that. Some, Trump, ignore it because they "know" better than everyone. Trump's publicly claimed as much. He knows more than his generals about all the military decisions he's made. He said so... Great leader. You guys win.

ETA: Let me clarify that while I do acknowledge leading in combat and even in LFEs is actual leadership, my point is that it is a very specific form of leadership that doesn’t slice across all situations nicely. I’ve led in the flying world and the non-flying world. Two different animals.
 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’ll take combat leadership over law school professor any day. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, SurelySerious said:

I’ll take combat leadership over law school professor any day. 

Depends on the role.  We've all seen the shit-hot patch who is the pinnacle of tactical knowledge but couldn't spell "OPR" with a dictionary on their desk.

At some point, you need the ability to rely on other folks expertise and you need the ability to navigate the bureaucracy.  

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, slackline said:

I'll bite.

Not surprised with Trump. Surprised with people's continued defense of his actions/"leadership". Surprised officers think Trump has any leadership skills whatsoever. Surprised it isn't clearly, painfully obvious that he has way less leadership capability than virtually every president in recent history.

I wasn't a fan of Obama before or during his presidency, but he clearly exhibited more leadership capability than Trump has at any point during his 4 years. By yours and the other points made here, making decisions doesn't equate to leadership. Being an executive, running multiple failed companies doesn't equate to leadership. Being a reality TV personality doesn't equate to leadership.

By your question, I take it to mean a person has no place running the Free world without massive experience in leadership? In your incredibly wise opinion, what's that bar/limit?

AF officers have no place in most leadership capacities by your logic. "Leading" a two, fourship or , whoa, an LFE is actual leadership? Leading a squadron with maybe 100 people? Stop kidding yourself. MX officers have twice as much leadership as most of us pilots by the time they're Captains, but that's heresy in the pilot's AF. People get offended, but you are being hypocritical saying Obama had no leadership experience when you claim your own experience is actually leadership. Trump made for "ok" reality TV, that's it. He's been a failure who was given a massive jumpstart by daddy, and survived off name recognition the rest of the time. I'm using some hyperbole, but you get the idea...

I'd almost guarantee that most of the intelligent people in this board, if I were able to give them the amount of money Trump was given by his daddy, would be just as rich if not moreso by now. With a much less questionable history (you know, misogyny, disgusting comments about dating his daughter, and clear evidence of racism) and a lot less bankruptcies...

But Trump is a great leader, sure.

Seriously, a PT boat skipper equates for you? You're probably in the group that includes leading an LFE as massive leadership experience and thinks a fighter pilot could easily lead any other type of squadron because they know BFM...

People often aren't prepared for the govt position they're given. They are surrounded by people invested in ensuring they have good advice and help. Most depend on that. Some, Trump, ignore it because they "know" better than everyone. Trump's publicly claimed as much. He knows more than his generals about all the military decisions he's made. He said so... Great leader. You guys win.

ETA: Let me clarify that while I do acknowledge leading in combat and even in LFEs is actual leadership, my point is that it is a very specific form of leadership that doesn’t slice across all situations nicely. I’ve led in the flying world and the non-flying world. Two different animals.

Thanks for the response.

First, my broader point is that making an argument about Trump being an outlier, bad-(leader/executive/whatever), or otherwise for firing people isn't a good point. The man fires a lot of people, has fired a lot of people in the past, and will probably fire a lot of people in the future. We knew this before he was president and now we feign surprise? Or use it to make some meta-point about him being X? I just don't think arguments that ignore the context of who someone is really get anywhere - that's what I was trying to get at.

Honestly, I have been basically pretty neutral about ALL the presidents I have served under and if I'm being honest, haven't seen that big of a difference between Bush, Obama, and now Trump. My day-to-day has been fairly consistent and IMO not tied to who was in the white house. What I don't like is the hyper focus on personalities that we (meaning smart officers) are exhibiting throughout this tumultuous time. If I could go back four years and examine my opinion about what the impending Trump presidency would have looked like, I would have proved myself 100% correct - which is to say he didn't change all that much. The political and media apparatus was fully united against him and invested in a useless presidency. And low and behold, that's more or less what we've had. So all that is to say I don't worry too much about any one individual, as much as we like to pin the tail on the donkey, some of these problems require more that one person to address. That said, I am extremely concerned about what I see taking place within the democrat party.

To your point about leadership, fine, I guess, but I've never been one to drink the AF's koolaid that leadership is a magical panacea for each, every, and all problem. That's a meme, and one that I think infects a lot of peoples' mindset in the AF. What we're missing most, IMO, is job competence and accountability. Are those functions of leadership? I suppose depending on your frame, more or less so. But when we call literally everything a leadership problem, we lose focus on how to solve problems because everything becomes the proverbial nail.

Re: MX officers being better able to lead the USAF. This argument is the literal manifestation of "my dick is bigger than yours so I should be in charge." God bless our MX leadership - lord knows I don't want to do it. That said, the size of the organization they've "led" doesn't lead to them knowing the first thing about winning an air war or leading an air campaign. Nope. That's why they're not in charge of the Air Force and also why they should never be in charge of the Air Force. It's also why the type of leadership (or skillset, perhaps) disparaged above is exactly what's required - because it's serves the greater, fundamental purpose of our organization. No matter how many 0700 meetings some O-5/6 spends going over the blotter, they won't ever have the experience garnered only from Red/Green Flag, combat, pilot training, etc. They work a critical piece of the USAF, but it still only serves a supporting role.

Finally, about DT's racism. Fine - he's extremely crass and says shitty things. But consider, if you will, that Joe Biden chose a running mate based on two primary factors: a v_gina and dark skin. Which of those (or both) qualifies you to lead the free world? Maybe it wasn't either. Maybe it was her ability to garner peak support of 15%? Maybe it was her ability to drop out of the race when she was teetering at about %1? The point is that the democrats are literally choosing their leadership based on what flavor of ice cream you are - it's not about any ability - let's not kid ourselves. That is racism - any which way you slice it. And it's particularly dangerous because it's "acceptable" - it's disguised. It is all done in order to create the facade of a "diverse coalition" in order to implement whatever bullshit they know they wouldn't be able to get done with white guys at the helm. Their "diversity" is a tool.

Consider, if you will, California's most recent attempt to instantiate a racist policy into law (https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/prop-16-failed-in-california) - thankfully it failed. Consider the numerous other examples from the democrat party wherein they are attempting to do wildly Un-American things (i.e. blanket student debt forgiveness). So while DT may be an incompetent, racist, homophobe and everybody knows it - look at what the "woke" democrat party is trying to do - and they have the media on their side. That worries me a lot more than one Obama or one Trump. Hence, my disillusionment with the hyper-focus one individual.

Edited by ViperMan
censorship; clarification
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

Subjective, he was the Chairman for the Subcommittee on European Affairs. He was law school professor, State Senator, and U.S. Senator. To skip being a Rep in the House to go being a U.S. Senator that young is pretty amazing.

I'll translate:

 

No, he didn't lead anything.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SurelySerious said:

I’ll take combat leadership over law school professor any day. 

I’ll take a law professor and senator over whatever Trump is calling his leadership skills. Has he ever led anything that didn’t end in bankruptcy?

Ill start: Trump University, Trump Steaks, the Taj Mahal..... Please don’t confuse Trump’s business acumen with his ability to pimp his brand. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think trump has exhibited anything resembling good leadership during his tenure, you are not a serious person.  There are some pro-trump arguments I can buy: you like him on policy, or because he's a middle finger troll to the radical left, but good leadership is not one of them.  
 

On the topic of administration turnover:

-yes every administration has turnover

-no it isn't inherently a bad thing

-no it isn't surprising the "you're fired" guy has fired a lot of people

I just wonder how trump supporters justify the scathing criticisms coming from high profile resignees like Mattis.  10 minutes ago Mattis was the most respected military leader in a generation and proof positive that trump was putting an incredible team together. But when he says trump is an incompetent egomaniac who's impossible to work with, it's chaffed off with incredible ease.  

 

Edited by Pooter
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

"you can only get this quality of steak in my resorts and america's finest restaurants"

... and literally any butcher shop, medium to high end grocery store, any other mail order steak service, costco or sams club.  

 

Wasn't it a wonderful world back when his substance-less bloviating was limited to nonsense claims about meat quality

Edited by Pooter
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Sim said:

Unironically believing that Trump is blundering idiot that stumbled into building skyscrapers with his name on and becoming POTUS.  🤣 🤥  

Never said he's a blundering idiot.  He's world-class at many things including: being a shyster used-car salesman,  a self-aggrandizing branding expert, and an incredibly popular TV personality.  Unfortunately none of those qualities translate well into leading a country.  

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...