Promotion and PRF Information

[guineapigfury]

What's the solution? Separate rated and non-rated boards? Let the shoes who have racked up multiple AADs because they've never deployed and work 5 hours a day go against their own.

I'd split it up further and go by group type. MX and MSG/FSG can have up or out, Ops gets something different to reflect the millions of dollars spent training aviators. Rated officers should get promoted to Major on a "fully qualified" basis, just like captains. No boards until O-5. There is no shortage of guys wanting out, so overmanning shouldn't be an issue.

[Recut]

Along with what you are all saying, rated dudes will probably always hold the promotion system in contempt. We invest so much up front to the air force (getting a pilot slot, UPT, SERE, crew qual upgrades, etc etc) all while trying to not die in the process. Then we sign a 10 year ADSC for the effort and that ADSC doesn't say we get to keep flying.

On the other hand, other career fields don't sign that 10 year ADSC and can punch when they don't get promoted.......... makes no sense

[ThreeHoler]

I'd split it up further and go by group type. MX and MSG/FSG can have up or out, Ops gets something different to reflect the millions of dollars spent training aviators. Rated officers should get promoted to Major on a "fully qualified" basis, just like captains. No boards until O-5. There is no shortage of guys wanting out, so overmanning shouldn't be an issue.

Have you seen the DOPMA ceiling recently? Just ask any 2003 year group guy...they'll tell you all about 113/mo pin on rate.

There are lots of O-6, O-5, and O-4s staying for max time. Each one of these ranks is "full."

[guineapigfury]

I can only speak for my little corner of the AF (mq-9s), but there is no one in my year group that I know who is considering staying (prior Es excluded). Maybe the disgruntled are loud enough to drown everyone else out, I don't know.

[Liquid]

Spartacus, thanks for not outing me. I've been a guest reader or "lurker"as some call it for many years, but only recently started posting. This is a great blog and I value the many different perspectives. There are a few disgruntled and toxic assholes here, but there are a few everywhere. I enjoy the humor, sarcasm and pilot centric views here. I've never been called a spineless manager or careerist. Champ is wrong for insinuating it. I completely understand that my perspective may not be popular, or even right, but I shouldn't have to post my hours, medals, job title or bio to make a point. Most here don't. And just because we spend 2 million dollars to train a Lt how to fly doesn't mean they will be good at it, be a good officer or be worthy of promotion years later. You need to earn it and the competition is tough. I've seen plenty of "shoe clerks" lead maintainers, defenders, civil engineers, contracting and comm professionals in combat and run circles around some of our three foot zipper wearing sun gods who think we owe them something for mediocre work and an elitist attitude. Those that think "shoe clerks" aren't worthy of respect and support are morons. They would get our Air Force put back in the Army if they were allowed to make big boy decisions instead of just bitch. Fortunately, these morons won't make any important decisions because our system won't let them. I guess we will just keep telling these morons they are great fifth string QBs and that they would be really good coaches if they weren't screwed out of the chance to coach by spineless managers at the promotion board.

[Vetter]

Every time I open this thread, my decision to volunteer for VSP and subsequently getting passed over are further proven the right direction for me. It's good to just walk away.

[Nineline]

Spartacus, thanks for not outing me. I've been a guest reader or "lurker"as some call it for many years, but only recently started posting. This is a great blog and I value the many different perspectives. There are a few disgruntled and toxic assholes here, but there are a few everywhere. I enjoy the humor, sarcasm and pilot centric views here. I've never been called a spineless manager or careerist. Champ is wrong for insinuating it. I completely understand that my perspective may not be popular, or even right, but I shouldn't have to post my hours, medals, job title or bio to make a point. Most here don't. And just because we spend 2 million dollars to train a Lt how to fly doesn't mean they will be good at it, be a good officer or be worthy of promotion years later. You need to earn it and the competition is tough. I've seen plenty of "shoe clerks" lead maintainers, defenders, civil engineers, contracting and comm professionals in combat and run circles around some of our three foot zipper wearing sun gods who think we owe them something for mediocre work and an elitist attitude. Those that think "shoe clerks" aren't worthy of respect and support are morons. They would get our Air Force put back in the Army if they were allowed to make big boy decisions instead of just bitch. Fortunately, these morons won't make any important decisions because our system won't let them. I guess we will just keep telling these morons they are great fifth string QBs and that they would be really good coaches if they weren't screwed out of the chance to coach by spineless managers at the promotion board.

Thanks for the pep talk, coach! Just when I thought we ran out of kool-aid, you make some more and totally redeem yourself!

-9-

[Guest ThatGuy]

Spartacus, thanks for not outing me. I've been a guest reader or "lurker"as some call it for many years, but only recently started posting. This is a great blog and I value the many different perspectives. There are a few disgruntled and toxic assholes here, but there are a few everywhere. I enjoy the humor, sarcasm and pilot centric views here. I've never been called a spineless manager or careerist. Champ is wrong for insinuating it. I completely understand that my perspective may not be popular, or even right, but I shouldn't have to post my hours, medals, job title or bio to make a point. Most here don't. And just because we spend 2 million dollars to train a Lt how to fly doesn't mean they will be good at it, be a good officer or be worthy of promotion years later. You need to earn it and the competition is tough. I've seen plenty of "shoe clerks" lead maintainers, defenders, civil engineers, contracting and comm professionals in combat and run circles around some of our three foot zipper wearing sun gods who think we owe them something for mediocre work and an elitist attitude. Those that think "shoe clerks" aren't worthy of respect and support are morons. They would get our Air Force put back in the Army if they were allowed to make big boy decisions instead of just bitch. Fortunately, these morons won't make any important decisions because our system won't let them. I guess we will just keep telling these morons they are great fifth string QBs and that they would be really good coaches if they weren't screwed out of the chance to coach by spineless managers at the promotion board.

See PM.

[joe1234]

His answer will be to tote the party line just like every other spineless manager in this service...

"Go ahead and get out... We will replace you."

I think your take on this is wrong. You call this mindset spineless, but in reality, it's the opposite, and brutally honest. The simple fact is that a lot of guys here have opinions on how they think the Air Force should be run, how promotions should work, and what they think they deserve, but that is bullshit. You don't get what you deserve, you get what you get, and with the Air Force, this is what you've got. You can get out, and they WILL replace you. If everyone votes with their feet, well, I guess anyone left is going to get 2 BTZ to O-5 and just skate to 20 because there's literally not enough people left.

The Air Force is a massive government bureaucracy that does a lot of shit and will go on with or without you. And that bureaucracy can and will fuck you over. You can say it is like a family, or that it's a calling, or it's your life's passion, profession of arms, whatever, but that's your problem, not theirs. Oh sure, general and colonels will say all that shit to get you to commit to putting your life on the line to sacrifice for God and country, but then they'll turn around and hang you out to dry when the numbers don't match up next FY and your ass gets force shaped. That's the truth.

Look, I criticize this thing as much as anyone else, but I've made my peace with it a long time ago. It's a transaction, and if you attach more significance to it than that and get burnt, well, don't say you weren't warned.

[Champ Kind]

So..... It's the "system" and nothing else?

The best and brightest our nation have to offer can't turn the rudder on this ship? "Well, I had to do it, so the next crop will have to do it as well."

I say "spineless" because I see men and women appointed to "leadership positions" that make it clear through their priorities and decisions that they are in it to continue advancing in this bureaucratic machine. I acknowledge that there are exceptions. But for the most part, many of these people that have prospered under the "up or out" system fall into the category of "spineless".

Yes, Liquid, I take exception to your assertion that the promotion system works. My focus is not necessarily on those who don't pay to play and wind up getting passed over. I am talking about the officers among us that calculate their next move to rise on the corporate ladder versus making things better and taking care of their Airmen. I have seen this type of management first-hand on multiple occasions, and it is a cancer to our service. So, please tell me again how you can say that our promotion system does it right yet people that simply cannot lead prosper in our current climate because they can bang out AAD/PME, schmooz with the best of them, and write one hell of an award package.

[panchbarnes]

If the current system is working then let's revamp ROTC/OTS/USAFA and PMEs and redefine good officership as boxchecking, event planning, geting promoted instead of "hacking the mission, taking care of your people, etc..."

[Vetter]

I find it telling that Liquid, the self described lurker/long time reader, decided to make his grand entrance on the Promotion and PRF Information thread. Of everything we discuss here on Baseops, this is the one topic that brought him out of the shadows. Interesting.

[FL001]

You guys really are disgruntled about this OPR nonsense, almost as pissed off as PYB and I am about our government's big power overreach and direct violation of the Bill of Rights.

You have a senior leader here, a flag officer, engaging in conversation with you. He has opinions, naturally, but is respectfully conversing. Rather than seeing this as a grand opportunity to have your personal perspective heard and possibly to influence high level promotion/PRF positive changes, you act like fukkers questioning his motives and leadership. That's baseops for ya!

[disgruntledemployee]

I find it telling that Liquid, the self described lurker/long time reader, decided to make his grand entrance on the Promotion and PRF Information thread. Of everything we discuss here on Baseops, this is the one topic that brought him out of the shadows. Interesting.

Me too. I was guessing that Liquid is a recent retiree along with a few other recent posters that came out of the wookwork. Perhaps upper management was directive in getting a few to join the conversation rather than just listen. Perhaps they think the forum has sway and influence.

Trogdor, oh I'm part of the "problem." I've written/signed hundreds of PRFs and read and graded thousands. I agree with much of what you say. I would fire a commander who upgraded guys not ready due to SOS. It is not a common practice everywhere but it is obviously a problem in many places. Standards should be the same regardless of your ranking. It blows that what you describe happens. I slap (really just mentor with direct talk and profanity) the stupid ass star QB for being stubborn and blowing his leadership abilities and proven performance by refusing to do PME or AAD, effectively self eliminating. It amazes me how many people say they are willing to die for their country or be separated from their family for most of their career for their job but are absolutely unwilling to take classes and write papers. Whiney ass bitches who will be replaced when they quit or allowed to continue at their current rank with pay increases every two years. It seriously doesn't take that much time. Blog less, sleep less or watch tv less. You are naive to think you can't be a run a good crew, be a good leader and get your shit done. Stop exaggerating how painful, distaste-less and immoral taking Coaching 101 is. It is a requisite for coaching whether you like it or not.

Dear Disgruntled:

I don't give a shit what you care about. Take your infection advice and shove it up your ass.

Yes, good dudes self eliminate and schmucks make the cut, but that is not my emphasis in this thread. If I hit the wayback machine and allow myself to quote thyself, I've posted that the promotion game sucks. However, I will conceed the following.

1. This last Maj board was somewhat different in that checkboxes were not as heavily weighed in the past, but they were still weighed.

2. I'm glad to hear that more emphasis is being put on job performance.

3. Grading people is not easy.

But:

1. At levels below the DP giver, raters use spreadsheets and on those spreadsheets are boxes and those boxes are given values. When a perfect PT test heavily outweighs DG in a formal program, priorities are fucked up. People looking for promotion will put emphasis on those areas that gain them the most. Do you have a fix for that one?

2. DP givers still hold the weight on the promotion system with the DP. If they think that the masters and PME are more important, that is where they go. I've seen it over and over and even on this last Maj board. You call it self eliminate. I and others call it mismatched priorities. When will the AF mask AAD for Maj and below?

Lastly, shoving things up my ass is no go. The mil may say its OK, but not me. I'm fed up with the current scheme and when I hear it here of all places, emotions fly.

Life in the trenches

Out

[HossHarris]

I've seen plenty of "shoe clerks" lead maintainers, defenders, civil engineers, contracting and comm professionals in combat and run circles around some of our three foot zipper wearing sun gods who think we owe them something for mediocre work and an elitist attitude. Those that think "shoe clerks" aren't worthy of respect and support are morons.

Remember everyone, "Shoe Clerk" is not a job ... "Shoe Clerk" is a mindset and attitude.

"Shoe Clerk" is a 2-hour lunch or taking gym time when there's actual mission to be done.

"Shoe Clerk" is surfing Facebook while someone stands waiting at the customer service desk.

"Shoe Clerk" is closed for training and not actually getting any better.

"Shoe Clerk" is saying 'no' rather than actually trying to help people or solve the problem.

"Shoe Clerk" is thinking the bureaucracy and/or the processes are more important than the results.

Don't be a Shoe Clerk.

It's a decision YOU make.

[10percenttruth]

Remember everyone, "Shoe Clerk" is not a job ... "Shoe Clerk" is a mindset and attitude.

"Shoe Clerk" is a 2-hour lunch or taking gym time when there's actual mission to be done.

"Shoe Clerk" is surfing Facebook while someone stands waiting at the customer service desk.

"Shoe Clerk" is closed for training and not actually getting any better.

"Shoe Clerk" is saying 'no' rather than actually trying to help people or solve the problem.

"Shoe Clerk" is thinking the bureaucracy and/or the processes are more important than the results.

Don't be a Shoe Clerk.

It's a decision YOU make.

That was beautiful!

[Spinner]

That was beautiful!

And true!

[Oo7kerpow]

Liquid, I'm curious what your thoughts are on a cultural shift towards more decisions being removed from lower leadership and being made higher up. I'm not sure if technology has created this or if something else, but subjective decisions have disappeared at the lower level. I would argue this is one of the causes of not only "box checking" but performance reports that need distinguishing factors to be able to tell officers apart.

For example, it is extremely hard to express on paper that officer A is just better in the office and in the jet than officer B because no one can be less than stellar on an opr. When it comes to rack and stacks, if the sq/cc has not personally observed this excellence, there is no room for flt/CCs to go to bat for said officer. Half the time flt/CCs are blatantly told how to strat and what job to push to match sq/cc rack and stack based on said box checking criteria. Sq/CCs have even less ability to justify said awesomeness unless backed up with awards when discussing things like SOS, oprs, and prfs at the grp/wing level. There is no box for above average pilot/nav-it's either instructor or flt cc and that's it. If you rock yor pt score, get your aad, and don't kill anyone in the plane, you'll go to SOS and be promoted, regardless if you are hardly in the office, can't land to save your life or always need a "seeing eye" crew member to ensure youre safe in the jet.

As a flight commander, it's hard to go to the sq/cc and justify xx strat u less its supported by said box checking spreadsheets, regardless of role as supervisor. Isn't that why we have flt commanders? On the same token, a sq/cc should be able to do the same for an individual at the grp level.

If we we were allowed to actually say a persons real performance on a report rather than saying everyone is awesome, maybe we wouldn't need things like aad and SOS to separate the chaff. And if rehabilitation existed in the Air Force, we wouldn't worry about being honest about a persons feedback.

Example: at a certain amc base, your package not only has to impress your own sq/cc but every squadron cc in the group and then again at the wing to make it to SOS. If you already don't at least have a ba+, you're not going to make it. If you have a passing but lower pt score, you have a reduced chance of making it. I understand wanting to send the best officers, but when you remove that subjectivity from a sq/cc, all that is left is box checking. It's a double whammy.

I don't think most people have an issue with the aad. They have an issue with it being possible to be a floater, getting paid $80k a year to do just enough work to not get in trouble, check all the boxes, and get promoted over their buddies who are shouldering the load. You can argue that these individuals eventually get filtered out, but it doesn't help the guys they stepped on first.

[BitteEinBit]

So..... It's the "system" and nothing else?

The best and brightest our nation have to offer can't turn the rudder on this ship? "Well, I had to do it, so the next crop will have to do it as well."

I say "spineless" because I see men and women appointed to "leadership positions" that make it clear through their priorities and decisions that they are in it to continue advancing in this bureaucratic machine. I acknowledge that there are exceptions. But for the most part, many of these people that have prospered under the "up or out" system fall into the category of "spineless".

Yes, Liquid, I take exception to your assertion that the promotion system works. My focus is not necessarily on those who don't pay to play and wind up getting passed over. I am talking about the officers among us that calculate their next move to rise on the corporate ladder versus making things better and taking care of their Airmen. I have seen this type of management first-hand on multiple occasions, and it is a cancer to our service. So, please tell me again how you can say that our promotion system does it right yet people that simply cannot lead prosper in our current climate because they can bang out AAD/PME, schmooz with the best of them, and write one hell of an award package.

I almost posted a long winded response that pretty much says the same thing this one does. No one in upper management will ever say the "system is broken" because it is working for them. But that "system" is actually perpetuating this environment where people are becoming more and more self serving. I have NEVER met anyone who volunteered for a staff job in order to make improvements for an organizational process...or improvements to anything else for that matter. They volunteer for staff assignments so they can get a school push or a PRF written by a 3-star or above. The goal today is not to make the organization better, but rather to secure a promotion so I can make it to 20. Just ask around and see who actually plans to stay past 20...I haven't met any yet. Why 20? What is so magic about that number? Why aren't people talking about making it to 30? Why, because we have a self-serving goal...and for a lot of people, it isn't making this organization better, but rather, doing enough to get by without changing anything or making any important decisions that could get me in trouble, non-selected for promotion, and (nowadays) possibly kicked out of the service....I have to make it to 20. That my friends, is the min-run Air Force...and we have created this environment and have rewarded people for living it.

The reality is if you want to make it to that magic number, you have to play the game and take care of yourself first....which from what I remember in SOS several years ago is exactly opposite of those things they call "Core Values." Mission first (alone) will not help you succeed. It is self first, and I'll get to the mission after I'm done with my Masters paper, but I'm only going to do enough to get noticed for my efforts and not get in trouble. The secret to success in this organization is simple given the current environment: take care of yourself, prepare for life outside the Air Force, do the best you can while you are still in the Air Force (in that order).

People on this thread aren't just making this sh*t up. If leadership is lurking, please listen to what your junior members are saying. Junior members, bitch, yes, but give some solutions to the problems as well. Sure, this isn't going to change overnight, but we need to change the culture back to the real "Core Values"...whatever they are these days. Stop rewarding self-serving behavior.

Ok, so that was still long winded...

[brickhistory]

No one in upper management will ever say the "system is broken" because it is working for them.

All of the above, but ESPECIALLY this.

[tac airlifter]

If the system "works" wouldn't we be winning wars? The last decade has proved the military could function better.

[General Condition]

<p>Since long-winded seems to be the trend . . .<br />

Be thankful that this is a forum to discuss issues. Too many careerists disregard this site as they claim it's full of cynics and rejects. You'll gain far more insight by respectfully engaging on here than you will with some ass-kissing executive officer who's striving for that stratification. If your purpose was to spike the punch bowl with kool-aid and re-blue everyone, then I'll ask you to leave. When you begin to take actions that benefit people and not the institution, you've made the right decision . . .<br />

<br />

Liquid,</p>

<p> </p>

<ol>

<li>Those that get promoted have an inflated sense of how good they are. They have a tendency to shrug off the grunt work so they can plan Christmas parties and become execs so they can advance their careers and have others take on the deployments and short-notice taskings. If you’re talking the law of averages (over 50%), sure, for the most part, the senior raters and the board get it right. But, we’re talking about the AF and 50/50 isn’t the standard that’s expected of anyone in the AF, so why is it acceptable at a promotion board? Would you care to explain how an aircraft commander, responsible for “accidentally” flying live nuclear weapons across the country, was not just able to make O-5, but make it 2BPZ? Remember, you can build a thousand ships . . .<br />

</li>

<li>The top half is not easy to identify. You’re wrong. The bottom 10% is easy to identify. The top 5% is easy to identify. It’s that middle 85% that all looks alike. Since you seem to like sports analogies, let me help: tell me who the top 50% of teams are in (fill in the blank). You can’t. At least, you can’t without a lot of arguments and disagreements. But, tell me who the top 5% and bottom 10% are and, while there will still be some disagreements, by and large, the arguing will stop. <br />

</li>

<li>Most people who, in your words “don’t give a shit” become that way because of the D-bags in the first paragraph. They quickly see that hard work, excelling in your job, being a stand-up guy, etc., don’t get you anywhere in the AF. </li>

</ol>

<ol>

<li value="4">“The AF gets it right most of the time.” Those were your words. If you truly are a senior “leader,” thank you for identifying yourself as part of the problem. “Most of the time” isn’t good enough. You’re talking to a crowd of individuals who live in a world where 30 seconds can mean the difference between mission success and a catastrophic international incident. “Most of the time” doesn’t cut it dude. </li>

</ol>

<ol>

<li value="5">I know plenty of people who regret “jumping through the hoops” only to get passed over. They wish they had bailed years ago. Hindsight tells them that they fell for the AF used-car salesmen pitch and they kick themselves every day. When life gives you a lemon, you take it back to the dealer and tell him to go screw himself.</li>

</ol>

<ol>

<li value="6">PME is useless. “Back at SOS/ACSC/AWC I learned . . .” said no one ever. This goes back to an over-inflated sense of self-worth. The AF thinks its PME is valuable. It isn’t. Fix it, or get rid of it.</li>

</ol>

<ol>

<li value="7">Stratification will be the undoing of the AF. Last time I checked, one was graded against a standard, not against your peers. People waste too many brain cells creating new types &amp; categories of stratification – brain cells that could be put to a much better use. As every year goes by, somebody tightens the vice just a little more to make our promotion system more “scientific.” What they fail to realize is that at some point, you tighten the vice too much and you ruin the product.</li>

</ol>

<ol>

<li value="8">Your sports analogy sucked.</li>

</ol>

<ol>

<li value="9">The AF won’t be fine. It’s shrinking by the day, and the concentration of careerists is getting stronger, and the core makeup of those that get the mission done will continue to shrink. Just look at the percentage of senior officers when compared to the Cold War. Senior officers don’t do work, they create it. You won’t do fine without the “toxic, anti-authority crowd.” Those are your critical thinkers. Those are the ones that meet your “diversity” AFI (diversity of thought). They provide the check-and-balance to your leadership. Not having a crowd like that leads to fascism, authoritarianism, despotism, etc. You should thank them every day. You should encourage it. And, lastly, you should promote it. They’re the ones who will stand up to the other services and Congress and tell them like it is. </li>

</ol>

[BFM this]

Dafuq?

That "Preview Post" button works like a champ.

[General Condition]

My apologies - copy and paste from word doesn't work like a champ.

[Vetter]

And I really hope Liquid is a recently retired Flag officer. Then maybe he can lament on the absolute ball of shit he has left us.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Vetter