Danger41 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 That is a interesting way to describe what happened. It is also very wrong. Might want to stop by your closest SIPR machine and ask it what happened. Nah. IDGAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stract Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Raptor studs fly Fighting Falcons what is this Fighting Falcon you keep referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Nah. IDGAF. I don't think so. They can't keep a lid on it forever. When you find out, I will put my money on you GAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I don't think so. They can't keep a lid on it forever. When you find out, I will put my money on you GAF. I'll just wait for the 60 minutes story. what is this Fighting Falcon you keep referring to? Source document Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 The average Raptor Stud is at his "Captain's boards" with nothing but training reports when you add that they now do two b-courses. The viper syllabus is just fam to flying a fighter so studs don't plant a Craptor in the ocean on TR-1 or BFM-1...its about 1.5-2 months as I recall. Hardly something you can call a b-course. I've never understood the CAF's reluctance to do a touch-and-go, and to settle for a low approach Because you'd be wasting time doing patterns when you could be getting into the vault sooner to get shots and start debriefing. Not to mention MX has to replace a shit ton of tires, and they'd be replacing a metric shit ton if everyone did touch and goes...if anything, doing low approaches helps them out and the "training" from 20 ft to 0 ft is extremely minimal at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 The no-touch-and-go deal has to do with saving tires only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) You EVER done a touch and go in the Eagle? At RTU on the first couple rides. You guys didn't at RTU? Edited June 10, 2012 by Danny Noonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingOsh Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 At RTU on the first couple rides. You guys didn't at RTU? No touch and go's in the Hog, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I've never understood the CAF's reluctance to do a touch-and-go, and to settle for a low approach. I remember watching the F-22s do touch and goes at Andersen. They'd let the back wheels kiss the runway (within the first 100 feet), apply burner, go back into the downwind pattern, turn final and have wheels back on terra firma...all in less than 50 seconds. I was impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 At RTU on the first couple rides. You guys didn't at RTU? Fuck no. I thought I would eek out an extra 0.1 and do some overheads when I was fresh to the A-10. I got a note on my locker from the Wg/DO (what we now call the OG/CC because after TAC ate SAC the concession was to allow for more "command billets" to make the SAC guys happy) that said "I already have a demo pilot, I don't need you. Report to me." The "advice" I got from the Wg/DO was to fly every sortie like it was my last chance to train before combat and since it was unlikely that I would be doing pattern work at enemy airfields maybe I should think of something better to do with the airplane and if I couldn't then give it back to mx so they could get it ready for someone who would do something useful with it. If I liked do pattern work then I should consider volunteering for a white jet. If I needed practice landing an airplane maybe I needed to consider handing out towels at the gym. This was coming from a legend in the fighter community. Made sense way back then. Still does. So, that's my frame of reference. I've always laughed about guys "beating up the pattern" after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 ###### no... "Real leadership in the Air Force" Christ, I wish I could have been in when this sort of thing went on. Even if I am just a Cyber-shoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 If I liked do pattern work then I should consider volunteering for a white jet. If I needed practice landing an airplane maybe I needed to consider handing out towels at the gym. Serious question: Are fighters that easy to land? I had the opportunity to fly the sim/PTT for the KAI T-50 at an airshow and it was really easy, but I assumed it had been "dumbed down" to impress the visitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeMeantWell Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Obviously a pretty general query, but: Easi-"er", mainly because they have a HUD, which makes most things easier... unless you are landing on a boat, then not as easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guineapigfury Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Obviously a pretty general query, but: Easi-"er", mainly because they have a HUD, which makes most things easier... unless you are landing on a boat, then not as easy. Poor comms on my part. I'll try again. As a general rule are USAF fighters sufficiently easy to land that pattern work is unnecessary? And my bad for taking us off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy pilgrim Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Poor comms on my part. I'll try again. As a general rule are USAF fighters sufficiently easy to land that pattern work is unnecessary? And my bad for taking us off topic. Yes, at least from my experience. The T-38 is much harder to land and much less forgiving than follow on aircraft. The no-flap low approach to a closed pattern can always use practice - especially on Fridays. :-) Ha - Rainmans story reminds me of a brand new Lt we had who got cleared "present position closed" by the tower, noticed he was slow so naturally went full blower and pulled closed to comply. The OG/CC was not impressed. I think the tower guys liked it though, as well as the ten year old kid in the commissary parking lot who now wants to be a pilot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 The no-flap low approach to a closed pattern can always use practice - especially on Fridays. :-) 1. No flaps are to be logged, not flown 2. Extra patterns...on Fridays? Re-read Rainman's post then feel shame. 3. Smiley face...awesome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 The problem requiring the F-16 training, IMHO, is that the Raptor is single seat and freakin' expensive. Might as well build a little cusion in the risk of turning a Raptor wannabe loose in a $200 million jet for the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Fuck no. (story) So, that's my frame of reference. I've always laughed about guys "beating up the pattern" after that. Copy, A-10 guys go with one to a full stop on dude's second ride ever in the jet in RTU. Interesting. I'm with you on "beating up the pattern" in an operational squadron or in the tactical phase of RTU. I got nothing for that. But in the RTU transition phase on ride 2--I think it's perfectly reasonable to get a couple turns off the perch out of the way. So I guess I'm not with you on scoffing the patterns in this particular case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Because you'd be wasting time doing patterns when you could be getting into the vault sooner to get shots and start debriefing. Not to mention MX has to replace a shit ton of tires, and they'd be replacing a metric shit ton if everyone did touch and goes...if anything, doing low approaches helps them out and the "training" from 20 ft to 0 ft is extremely minimal at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Serious...I take it you haven't yet waited on the dumbass who decided to do 10 min of pattern work after a vul, then had to talk to MX for 69 min about his Code 3 and then subsequently was not even within 5 min of being ready for the pre-mass while everyone else was? While that is on the "worst case" side of the scale, the point remains there's always something tactical you could be doing instead of logging an extra .1 or .2 in the pattern. Every sortie should minimize admin and maximize tactical learning...beating up the pattern is detracting from the latter to a varying extent, depending on the mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BQZip01 Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Serious...I take it you haven't yet waited on the dumbass who decided to do 10 min of pattern work after a vul, then had to talk to MX for 69 min about his Code 3 and then subsequently was not even within 5 min of being ready for the pre-mass while everyone else was? While that is on the "worst case" side of the scale, the point remains there's always something tactical you could be doing instead of logging an extra .1 or .2 in the pattern. Every sortie should minimize admin and maximize tactical learning...beating up the pattern is detracting from the latter to a varying extent, depending on the mission. This is, of course, mission dependent, IMHO (and certainly limited to the single-seat world). In B-52s (and many other heavies I would assume) it is common to get multiple pilots on the same to "hack a bean" to maintain currency. I've been on a sortie with 6 pilots all looking to log various portions of the sortie...ALL of them needed night landings. I would assume a guy who needs to make more landings to maintain currency would knock out a few T&Gs, but only if approved, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I would assume a guy who needs to make more landings to maintain currency would knock out a few T&Gs, but only if approved, correct? No. Fighters have only one pilot on board. Landing currency is updated with one landing. Absolutely no need for multiple for currency purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Copy, A-10 guys go with one to a full stop on dude's second ride ever in the jet in RTU. Interesting. I'm with you on "beating up the pattern" in an operational squadron or in the tactical phase of RTU. I got nothing for that. But in the RTU transition phase on ride 2--I think it's perfectly reasonable to get a couple turns off the perch out of the way. So I guess I'm not with you on scoffing the patterns in this particular case. Whatever. Try to pay attention to the original point. I'm scoffing touch and go landings. They are not required and they are stupid in any phase of training or otherwise. I will concede that everyone can probably use a couple overheads on the TR-2 ride in RTU. However, I don't think they have to do a touch and go. I will officially and public admit that you win the big fucking TR phase mushcranium RTU IP argument that I wasn't even having in the first place. And yes, traffic patterns are super easy to fly in the Hog. Easier than in a Cessna 152, which is fucking awesome because landing the plane shouldn't be the most difficult or dangerous part of the sortie. If someone really needs much practice landing a Hog they should do something else for a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitzo Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 One of the biggest reasons I loved the Bone was the sense that we as a crew were employing a weapon, beyond IQC each pilot got a bounce to update their currency but there was no beating up the pattern. You were expected to know how to fly solid instruments and land the plane. That was motherhood. Fast forward a couple of years and in U-28 initial qual I hear an instructor pilot bragging about logging 30 touch and goes, in one single sortie. I didn't understand it and still don't. Now on the other hand when the meat and potatoes of your weapon system is to infil bad dudes in a blacked out LZ... feel free to practice all you need to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Noonin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I will officially and public admit that you win the big fucking TR phase mushcranium RTU IP argument that I wasn't even having in the first place. Well then. I wasn't trying to have an argument either. I'll work on my technique. As for touch and gos, I frankly couldn't give a shit either way. Wasn't my point. Just legitimately never dawned on me that any community didn't do them in RTU. Edited June 12, 2012 by Danny Noonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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