4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I was prosecuted for fraternization and irresponsible drinking

So you drank alcohol with the Es? Welcome to every guard squadron. WTF.

5 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Before my trial my commander didn't want to send me to SOS in-res. But after I was acquitted, my new leadership wanted to "make up" for the ordeal and started dumping opportunities on me.

😂 same...I literally laughed in his face and said 'no thanks'

1 hour ago, brabus said:

So you drank alcohol with the Es? Welcome to every guard squadron. WTF.

No no, it was much more than that, but the charges were contradictory, which was my point. I see how I made it seem that way though, my bad.

Short(ish) version: got wasted at a house party full of all ranks and hooked up with an E who was married. I was too. Mild petting. Really fucking dumb, I know, but pretty tame as far as the Sport of Kings™ goes.

But she was married, and had been caught cheating a couple times before by her husband, so when he found out, she claimed she was raped.

The investigation was... Sloppy. OSI wired my accuser to try to catch a confession, which they didn't remotely get, but for whatever reason they wrote in the summary that I confessed. So that convinced the chain of command to press charges.

But then they charged me with sexual assault and fraternization, which are kinda mutually exclusive in this context. That resulted in a really disjointed prosecution that fell apart for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was the absence of rape and the lack of a confession.

I'll never know for sure, but I think the judge was so pissed at the prosecution for throwing everything at the wall to see what stuck that he looked at the frat charge in a way that favored my case. Either way, I was found not guilty.

Of course I admitted to drunkenly fooling around with the accuser on the stand, yet was found not guilty. So my SqCC who married an E and my WgCC who was a well known recovering alcoholic gave me an LOR for drunken fraternization; conduct unbecoming. I get it, my conduct was rather unbecoming, but it was very clear to everyone (including my next commanders) that it was sour grapes for losing the case in court.

So yeah, @illusive it could be a whole lot worse. But I still had a lot of fun in the AF, so you're probably fine.

Sorry, if I write any more then Boomers' hemorrhoids are going to flare up 🤣😂.

Edited Sunday at 05:00 AM3 days by Lord Ratner

On 11/28/2025 at 5:05 PM, Lord Ratner said:

You're more of a "color inside the lines" guy.

Not getting caught diddling an E is a pretty low bar.

Photo evidence submitted at Ratner's trial:

@Lord Ratner Yeah you did fuck up, but damn dude, what a bunch of bullshit to go through that was way beyond reasonable or warranted. Glad you got through it. Too many stories along those lines in the mil.

11 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

No no, it was much more than that, but the charges were contradictory, which was my point. I see how I made it seem that way though, my bad.

Short(ish) version: got wasted at a house party full of all ranks and hooked up with an E who was married. I was too. Mild petting. Really fucking dumb, I know, but pretty tame as far as the Sport of Kings™ goes.

But she was married, and had been caught cheating a couple times before by her husband, so when he found out, she claimed she was raped.

The investigation was... Sloppy. OSI wired my accuser to try to catch a confession, which they didn't remotely get, but for whatever reason they wrote in the summary that I confessed. So that convinced the chain of command to press charges.

But then they charged me with sexual assault and fraternization, which are kinda mutually exclusive in this context. That resulted in a really disjointed prosecution that fell apart for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was the absence of rape and the lack of a confession.

I'll never know for sure, but I think the judge was so pissed at the prosecution for throwing everything at the wall to see what stuck that he looked at the frat charge in a way that favored my case. Either way, I was found not guilty.

Of course I admitted to drunkenly fooling around with the accuser on the stand, yet was found not guilty. So my SqCC who married an E and my WgCC who was a well known recovering alcoholic gave me an LOR for drunken fraternization; conduct unbecoming. I get it, my conduct was rather unbecoming, but it was very clear to everyone (including my next commanders) that it was sour grapes for losing the case in court.

So yeah, @illusive it could be a whole lot worse. But I still had a lot of fun in the AF, so you're probably fine.

Sorry, if I write any more then Boomers' hemorrhoids are going to flare up 🤣😂.

I know several GOs who made BPZ for doing far worse than "Mild Petting".

11 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

Not getting caught diddling an E is a pretty low bar.

Photo evidence submitted at Ratner's trial:

Carnies. Small hands.

Edited Sunday at 06:20 PM2 days by FourFans

I'm a retired old fart MSgt, got out at 21 mainly because I would never see another stripe, all my time was on the flightline, had a boss tell me all you did was deploy a bunch and do your job, never saw you at Sq parties or top 4 meetings. When I was stationed at Andrews, I was more an aircraft detailer than Crew Chief, I absolutely hated being there, hated the mission. Back in those days I could call my AFSC's manager at Randolph and ask for a PCS. He said you want Iceland, hell yes, I said just to get out of Washington DC. Guess what happened, I loved being in the USAF again. I think being in the Air Force is a lot like real estate, location, location, location. Before that I was ready to move on, get out and go home to Chicago and be a cop. I'm Sure glad I didn't do that. Now I'm semi-retired living the life in my mountain home in Colorado getting 4 checks monthly because I decided to stay in not go back to Chicago. 15 years is a bunch of years to walk away from, think really hard about it.

So, is it better to admit up front to hanging out with all the unsavory types on BO next time I fill out an SF-86 or try to explain it after the fact to investigators?😁

Don't forget to include your screen name as an alias.

Big second on what Prosuper said. We've all had times we've been fed up but it can be a lot of money left on the table when it's all said and done.

5 hours ago, brabus said:

@Lord Ratner Yeah you did fuck up, but damn dude, what a bunch of bullshit to go through that was way beyond reasonable or warranted. Glad you got through it. Too many stories along those lines in the mil.

I could be pissed and resentful that the Air Force came after me for an accusation that every judge or JAG in the process saw as obviously absurd. It cost a lot of money and it put my family through quite a bit.

Or I could be thankful that I made my stupid mistake in 2015 instead of 2007, when the Air Force was balls deep in the "women never lie about rape" narrative. I'd probably still be in jail if it had been in that era.

I choose the latter. Most people on earth would cut off their right arm to be where I am professionally, financially, and medically.

1. Timing is Everything

2. It's better to be lucky than good

3. There is no justice

I wish I remember who the first person to share those rules with me was, because while they aren't a moral framework, they've always been a quick antidote to any potential pity-parties I've thrown for myself.

4 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I know several GOs who made BPZ for doing far worse than "Mild Petting".

You're never going to have men and women working together without fraternization. I know you know that too. I wasn't mad they went after me, but the mock indignation was pathetic.

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I wasn't mad they went after me, but the mock indignation was pathetic.

I was an exec in my first squadron and a laptop went missing. I got a call from OSI asking me to come over they wanted to chat. I was completely naive mainly because I didn't take the laptop and thought that was obvious. I truly thought they wanted help figuring out when it went missing. I walked in and they took me to an interrogation room where good cop bad cop immediately started. It was very apparent they wanted me to confess. The idiot even said "I know you took it, how about you explain to me why I shouldn't think you took it. I replied, "first, you already screwed up because you are recording this and never read me my rights...second, my career as a pilot is not worth a laptop and none of your horseshit is going to change my answer. He looked extremely butt hurt, then read me my rights. Asked another question and got the same answer. You can go now. It was like they were reading (poorly), off a script.

Never had a positive OSI experience - I feel like every single one I’ve interacted with, even in an unofficial capacity, is a total slime ball just looking to nail anybody and everybody, truth be damned. Do not trust OSI, ever.

Upon reading a lot of the recent replies, talking with a mentor, and some self reflection I think a common theme I see is feelings of betrayal. In my own case it was really difficult learning to trust anyone or anything because I kept seeing a pattern of prioritizing optics and process over actual results. I understand there's going to be a lot of "its always been this way" in the replies but since I've been in it seems like that mindset is only getting worse.

my sq/cc didnt even know it was my fini flight and last day on active duty. just a O&B jet rescue for me and that was it. not even a handshake or "thanks" for 12 years. i just landed, got my shit, and left. not even a follow up from him when i showed back up three months later as a part time reservist. just a shoulder shrug. it was kind of funny actually.

wasn't too upset about it cause he was an asshole and totally clueless. at the end of the day big blue doesn't care and will (has to) churn on. make the satisfaction the bros you meet, their respect for your work, and the mission you did together.

7 hours ago, illusive said:

...since I've been in it seems like that mindset is only getting worse.

You're not wrong. I had that perception too.

4 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

my sq/cc didnt even know it was my fini flight...

Similar experience, but I decided that the people who's opinions matter to me noticed important things in my life, all other's opinions don't matter.

9 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

my sq/cc didnt even know it was my fini flight and last day on active duty. just a O&B jet rescue for me and that was it. not even a handshake or "thanks" for 12 years. i just landed, got my shit, and left. not even a follow up from him when i showed back up three months later as a part time reservist. just a shoulder shrug. it was kind of funny actually.

wasn't too upset about it cause he was an asshole and totally clueless. at the end of the day big blue doesn't care and will (has to) churn on. make the satisfaction the bros you meet, their respect for your work, and the mission you did together.

My last day was to send my flag and retirement certificate to this address, not rent a crowd ceremony. Most of the Senior E's in my Sq I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. Started my terminal leave and couple days later my boss calls and asks me why I'm not at work. That Sq was so petty I never got my flag or certificate.

On 11/30/2025 at 9:43 PM, illusive said:

Upon reading a lot of the recent replies, talking with a mentor, and some self reflection I think a common theme I see is feelings of betrayal. In my own case it was really difficult learning to trust anyone or anything because I kept seeing a pattern of prioritizing optics and process over actual results. I understand there's going to be a lot of "its always been this way" in the replies but since I've been in it seems like that mindset is only getting worse.

No organization will ever care about you, nor will it betray you, because it can't. The people in the system are what matters and you'll find good and bad people in every system. I had far more good than bad experiences in my AF time and I would absolutely do it all again, but I know that experiences will vary. I still think that there is a higher proportion of good dudes in the AF than in the airlines (I'm at a legacy) or in most other career fields. Timing and luck play a huge part of your AF career; I knew good guys that got repeatedly shafted and I knew guys that had a great career even though they were less deserving. But by far more common were good dudes that got some good deals and some bad deals. It sucks when your commander/boss happens to be one of the guys that shouldn't be there, but that happens everywhere, including at the airlines. The only difference is at the airlines it is often easier to distance yourself. If your career really was just one bad deal after another than either you were extremely unlucky (it happens, I knew a good guy like that) or it might be your attitude. Looking back at my career, I'm thankful for all my good deals. They made great friends, memories, and stories. But I'm also thankful for most of my bad deals because they helped shape my path to be where I am now.

12 hours ago, Smokin said:

Nor will it betray you, because it can't.

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that.

I had just made MSgt in nine years when I got a random phone call from the Chief Enlisted Aviator at the Pentagon (Massengill for your gunship peeps) with the CSAF standing right next to him. The E-9 proceeded to scream at me over a Facebook comment on a USAF humor group because I said vehicle ops were stupid due to not being able to drive us out to the right jet 69% of the time when I taught at Altus. He then slammed the phone down, sent a PDF snapshot of what I said to my Sq/CC and Sq Chief, and I was later signing an LOR and a UIF I received from the Sq/CC. I almost lost my line number for MSgt, but I did lose any aspirations of making Senior or Chief.

Right before I PCSd from Altus, I got divorced. I show up to Fairchild knowing I'd never make Senior or Chief, and they knew that too, so they were trying to throw me in bullshit jobs with a high probability of worthless staff deployments. I was able to argue my way into Sq Stan Eval. I started hooking up with an Airman boom operator in scheduling for a few months, then we quit, and that was that. I was deployed to the Deid and hooked up with a SrA boom operator who was also in scheduling. Then two years later, I was deployed as OGV. Some fellow SNCO ratted me out about hooking up with those girls years before to the OG Chief, who then told his boss, the OG/CC, and an unprofessional relationship investigation started on me. The girls got called into the First Sergeant's office, read their rights, and signed a statement saying they never hooked up with me. Then the SrA tells the Airman they're going to get in trouble and to go to the SARC and just say I sexually assaulted them. I was flown back from the Deid to Fairchild, grounded, fired from OGV, and left to rot in an office after losing my flight pay for almost a year while OSI tried to wiretap the SrA to record me, call my ex-wife to convince her that I used to beat her (she said that never happened and was never called as a witness), followed by OSI agents as I did mundane things like grocery shopped, had my cell phone records and email subpeonaed, etc. Eventually, OSI creates a bullshit "Report of Investigation" where the SrA didn't actually make an official statement, the Airman admits I didn't really sexually assault her, but sexually harassed her, and then I was charged with Article 120 Sexual Assault, 93 Maltreatment, and 92 Dereliction of Duty. Then six months later, I was sent to a general court-martial.

The court is pretty wild where you get to sit there stone-faced in service dress while the prosecution and defense are talking you naked and having sex in front of strangers who outrank that you don't know, family, and friends. It's also 10-12-hour days of you just sitting there praying that you're not going to be a sex offender for life and a felon for crimes you know you never committed. Then one day, the panel (jury) deliberates, comes back out, and gives the verdict to the bailiff to hand to the judge. Then you stand at attention as you almost pass out from hearing the verdict of guilty or not guilty of the charges. In my case, I was acquitted of the 120, 93, and found guilty of the 92 for, in essence, having consensual sex with two subordinates. I was sentenced to a reduction to SSgt and a LOR. The legal office was irate that I didn't get a punitive discharge, so a week before I hit 16 years in the USAF, AFPC confirmed I was a "Career Airman" and could retire at 20 years as an SSgt, they sent me to an administrative discharge hearing. I was discharged with a General Under Honorable Conditions discharge at 16 years, 3 months, and 9 days. No check of the month club for me. Did the girls get in trouble for lying? Of course not, in fact, today the SrA is an SMSgt.

Did I fuck up? Sure. But did I do something so egregious that it warranted getting booted at 16 years and losing everything I worked hard for? No. The retarded prior 19 AF/CC was found guilty of a lot more shit than I was in his court martial, but he's still a two-star (as of now). So yes, organizations can and will betray you. But in the civilian world, you can be a free agent and leave before it gets to that point. I was pretty bitter the year after I got out, but life worked out in a great way for me because the one thing the USAF taught me more than anything else when it was betraying me all those years via those examples was tenacity and perseverance. That has translated into successful ways multiple times in my post-USAF life.

Edited 5 hours ago5 hr by Sua Sponte

6 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that.

I had just made MSgt in nine years when I got a random phone call from the Chief Enlisted Aviator at the Pentagon (Massengill for your gunship peeps) with the CSAF standing right next to him. The E-9 proceeded to scream at me over a Facebook comment on a USAF humor group because I said vehicle ops were stupid due to not being able to drive us out to the right jet 69% of the time when I taught at Altus. He then slammed the phone down, sent a PDF snapshot of what I said to my Sq/CC and Sq Chief, and I was later signing an LOR and a UIF I received from the Sq/CC. I almost lost my line number for MSgt, but I did lose any aspirations of making Senior or Chief.

Right before I PCSd from Altus, I got divorced. I show up to Fairchild knowing I'd never make Senior or Chief, and they knew that too, so they were trying to throw me in bullshit jobs with a high probability of worthless staff deployments. I was able to argue my way into Sq Stan Eval. I started hooking up with an Airman boom operator in scheduling for a few months, then we quit, and that was that. I was deployed to the Deid and hooked up with a SrA boom operator who was also in scheduling. Then two years later, I was deployed as OGV. Some fellow SNCO ratted me out about hooking up with those girls years before to the OG Chief, who then told his boss, the OG/CC, and an unprofessional relationship investigation started on me. The girls got called into the First Sergeant's office, read their rights, and signed a statement saying they never hooked up with me. Then the SrA tells the Airman they're going to get in trouble and to go to the SARC and just say I sexually assaulted them. I was flown back from the Deid to Fairchild, grounded, fired from OGV, and left to rot in an office after losing my flight pay for almost a year while OSI tried to wiretap the SrA to record me, call my ex-wife to convince her that I used to beat her (she said that never happened and was never called as a witness), followed by OSI agents as I did mundane things like grocery shopped, had my cell phone records and email subpeonaed, etc. Eventually, OSI creates a bullshit "Report of Investigation" where the SrA didn't actually make an official statement, the Airman admits I didn't really sexually assault her, but sexually harassed her, and then I was charged with Article 120 Sexual Assault, 93 Maltreatment, and 92 Dereliction of Duty. Then six months later, I was sent to a general court-martial.

The court is pretty wild where you get to sit there stone-faced in service dress while the prosecution and defense are talking you naked and having sex in front of strangers who outrank that you don't know, family, and friends. It's also 10-12-hour days of you just sitting there praying that you're not going to be a sex offender for life and a felon for crimes you know you never committed. Then one day, the panel (jury) deliberates, comes back out, and gives the verdict to the bailiff to hand to the judge. Then you stand at attention as you almost pass out from hearing the verdict of guilty or not guilty of the charges. In my case, I was acquitted of the 120, 93, and found guilty of the 92 for, in essence, having consensual sex with two subordinates. I was sentenced to a reduction to SSgt and a LOR. The legal office was irate that I didn't get a punitive discharge, so a week before I hit 16 years in the USAF, AFPC confirmed I was a "Career Airman" and could retire at 20 years as an SSgt, they sent me to an administrative discharge hearing. I was discharged with a General Under Honorable Conditions discharge at 16 years, 3 months, and 9 days. No check of the month club for me. Did the girls get in trouble for lying? Of course not, in fact, today the SrA is an SMSgt.

Did I fuck up? Sure. But did I do something so egregious that it warranted getting booted at 16 years and losing everything I worked hard for? No. The retarded prior 19 AF/CC was found guilty of a lot more shit than I was in his court martial, but he's still a two-star (as of now). So yes, organizations can and will betray you. But in the civilian world, you can be a free agent and leave before it gets to that point. I was pretty bitter the year after I got out, but life worked out in a great way for me because the one thing the USAF taught me more than anything else when it was betraying me all those years via those examples was tenacity and perseverance. That has translated into successful ways multiple times in my post-USAF life.

I can't believe it's been almost a decade. Damn I feel old 😂🤣