24 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Indeed this discussion has come to a screeching halt, although I now understand why so many are contemptible of those seeking a religious accommodation: turns out you’re contemptible of religion itself. Makes perfect sense.

Freedom of religion is one of the basic tenants our country was founded upon. Enshrined in the US Constitution. As military officers, we take an oath to defend the constitution.  

 

More specifically, freedom from religion is a tenet (yeah it's tenet, not tenant) of our constitution.

If you feel like Sky Wizard is calling the shots in your life, cool. But that stops with you - fortunately it's an all-volunteer force and we're all welcome to either play by the rules, or take your ball and go home. 

You're spot on - I'll happily uphold my oath regarding establishment of religion. Keep that shìt at home. 

Edited December 20, 20214 yr by Waingro

4 hours ago, Negatory said:

It is overly simplistic to say that all humans are innately religious. I’m not, and I think you’ll find that is true for many others.

I think your right, but to his point many people treat non religious things like religion, such as political parties. My good side said this is good and the other side is evil, therefore it is so.

20 minutes ago, Waingro said:

More specifically, freedom from religion is a tenet (yeah it's tenet, not tenant) of our constitution.

If you feel like Sky Wizard is calling the shots in your life, cool. But that stops with you - fortunately it's an all-volunteer force and we're all welcome to either play by the rules, or take your ball and go home. 

You're spot on - I'll happily uphold my oath regarding establishment of religion. Keep that shìt at home. 

There is nothing wrong with the government acknowledging religion as long as it doesn’t sponsor a specific religion and force everyone to join it.

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Indeed this discussion has come to a screeching halt, although I now understand why so many are contemptible of those seeking a religious accommodation: turns out you’re contemptible of religion itself. Makes perfect sense.

Freedom of religion is one of the basic tenants our country was founded upon. Enshrined in the US Constitution. As military officers, we take an oath to defend the constitution.  

Personally I’d feel like a fraud if I swore to defend a concept I thought was inherently bogus.  As a fellow officer, I am puzzled at those who ostensibly serve to protect the constitution yet distain and despise its core aspects.  But ok, your beliefs don’t have to make sense to me.  🇺🇸

However as a Christian I do understand being despised for Christ: he promised exactly this.  So now conversation comes to a halt and the religious among us each must pray and determine where to draw the line.  “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.”  John 15:18.

 

I would gladly defend religious freedom with my life while simultaneously acknowledging its absurdity and the fact that it is the single greatest source of evil in the history of humanity.  The defense is of freedom, not religion.  There's no dissonance there, and no grounds to feel like a fraud.  Defending someone's right to make a choice for themselves that you wouldn't make for yourself is an amazing thing.

Religion is contemptible.  That doesn't extend to a believer as long as they aren't using their faith to justify causing harm.  I'm aware of the awesome power of indoctrination.  The doctrine/church/organization deserves contempt, but for the faithful it's pity.

Edited December 20, 20214 yr by Mark1

Lol, I don't think it's as contemptible as your hubris. You realize scientific atheism is a religion right? Anthropological definition below. Your contempt isn't at religion it's at authoritarianism which has allowed individuals or groups to universally enforce a moral code across a population schema without checks and balances. Ironically the push for a vaccine mandate is a turn toward just that sort of authoritarianism that has allowed that to happen. 

"Religion is a pattern of beliefs, values, and actions that are acquired by members of a group. Religion constitutes an ordered system of meanings, beliefs, and values that define the place of human beings in the world."

2 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Personally I’d feel like a fraud if I swore to defend a concept I thought was inherently bogus.

Interesting. You seem to infer that you believe the oath of office compels one to defend the concept of religion. That’s a pretty big leap. As others have stated above, you’re defending the right to choose what religion you wish to subscribe to, or to not subscribe to any. Regardless, in no case is the department of defense obligated to accommodate your religious beliefs if they are incompatible with military service. Let me ask you a question: this is a real church https://www.spaghettimonster.org (no shit). Do you believe that military members of this church should be granted accommodation from, say, working on Fridays if it violated their beliefs? I’m guessing you’d point and laugh (as would most of us), but in all honesty, what makes your religion more deserving of accommodation than theirs? 

4 hours ago, Mark1 said:

single greatest source of evil in the history of humanity. 

Segue - I think the greatest source of the immense strife we see in our country is colossal assholes like you who vehemently shit on someone for having a different view point or set of beliefs than yourself. Absolutely you can think it’s all gibberish, but when you belittle people for their personal beliefs and attack their core values, you’re just a POS bully. Time for some introspection, or just keep being a total shitbag, you’re call.  

3 hours ago, Mark1 said:

as they aren't using their faith to justify causing harm. 

Is one of these religious people who has documented previous infection from Covid-19 and has fully recovered a threat? Are they causing harm to the military? To anyone? Surely the CDC would have a plethora of evidence of spread of the disease from one of those covid-19 recovered person/antivaxxers/flat earthers/ unenlightened/incapable of critical thoughters, right? Oh wait…

https://www.sirillp.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/IR0552-CDC-Reinfection-and-Transmission_FINAL-5.pdf

https://www.sirillp.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/21-02152-Final-Response-Letter-Brehm-1.pdf

I'm curious which denomination of Christianity is telling people not to get the vaccine.

i know it isnt Catholics, Southern Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Assemblies of God, or Methodist. And a Christian Scientist would have objections to ALL vaccines, not just Covid.

Or are y'all asserting a singular personal belief that puts you at odds with the doctrine of your chosen faith?

Edited December 20, 20214 yr by pawnman

Bunch of Blue-Anon dudes calling religious dudes - "stupid".  🤣

ADMIN NOTE:  Gents, it's getting ugly in here!  People are losing their sense of civility to each other, and it has to stop!  Personal attacks and name calling will not be tolerated.  Either have an adult discussion and respectfully disagree, or this thread will end.  No more warnings.  Thanks for your understanding and cooperation!

2 hours ago, brabus said:

Segue - I think the greatest source of the immense strife we see in our country is colossal assholes like you who vehemently shit on someone for having a different view point or set of beliefs than yourself. Absolutely you can think it’s all gibberish, but when you belittle people for their personal beliefs and attack their core values, you’re just a POS bully. Time for some introspection, or just keep being a total shitbag, you’re call.  

I think most people support personal religion up to the point where folks abuse and cherry pick their core values to use religion as a trump card (pun intended) to do whatever they want and impact others. See gay marriage, abortion, COVID, abortion etc.

I don’t even agree with mandates for the whole population, but trying to pursue religious exceptions come off as one of the most disingenuous “You can’t make me!” temper tantrums possible - not a genuinely held belief.

57 minutes ago, Negatory said:

I think most people support personal religion up to the point where folks abuse and cherry pick their core values to use religion as a trump card (pun intended) to do whatever they want and impact others. See gay marriage, abortion, COVID, abortion etc.

I don’t even agree with mandates for the whole population, but trying to pursue religious exceptions come off as one of the most disingenuous “You can’t make me!” temper tantrums possible - not a genuinely held belief.

I think an important thing we need to recognize the move the argument forward is weather or not the belief is genuine is irrelevant. The Air Force has already recognized in almost EVERY religious waiver that the belief is genuine. Weather or not that is true is irrelevant now. The only point to be argued is weather the Air Force's reason for denying the waiver, operational readiness, is essential enough to deny a reasonable accommodation. 

8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

so many are contemptible

distain and despise its core aspects.

I do understand being despised.

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.”  John 15:18.

There's such a strange desire among many religious people to feel persecuted, hated, or oppressed, so it's not surprising that you interpreted my post that way. 

Feigned oppression helps deflect away from having to confront the actual merit of the belief(s), and helps the person having their beliefs questioned actually feel virtuous (instead of embarrassed). 

Someone questions the fact that you believe certain humans lived over 500 years, and you spin it to be about "hatred" against you.

What if I told you something ridiculous, like I can jump 50 feet high?  I'm guessing you would want some evidence.  And the more extraordinary the claim, the more evidence you'll require.  That's how the world (outside religion) works. 

Imagine if you said:  "I really doubt you can jump 50 feet high.  Can you prove it?"  And I responded:  "..  Ohh, well that's because you despise me."

Truth is, I said nothing about hating you.  You can believe anything you want.  I'm saying that if you believe things that don't align with reality, it makes no sense inviting you to the discussions about science and evidence.  And that it's absurd for people to ask for religious accommodations for a vaccine by haphazardly trying to weave concepts of science/reality with Genesis, as if they're compatible. 

I'm not going to pretend that I don't find many religious beliefs ridiculous, absurd, or even silly.  You feel the same exact way, just about other religions than your own.  It's why you're not a Hindu, Muslim, or Scientologist.  .....or a flat-earther or chemtrailer.  It's not about hating people that hold certain beliefs.  It's a rejection of those beliefs because they don't align with reality. 

9 minutes ago, SpeedOfHeat said:

There's such a strange desire among many religious people to feel persecuted, hated, or oppressed, so it's not surprising that you interpreted my post that way. 

Feigned oppression helps deflect away from having to confront the actual merit of the belief(s), and helps the person having their beliefs questioned actually feel virtuous (instead of embarrassed). 

Someone questions the fact that you believe certain humans lived over 500 years, and you spin it to be about "hatred" against you.

What if I told you something ridiculous, like I can jump 50 feet high?  I'm guessing you would want some evidence.  And the more extraordinary the claim, the more evidence you'll require.  That's how the world (outside religion) works. 

Imagine if you said:  "I really doubt you can jump 50 feet high.  Can you prove it?"  And I responded:  "..  Ohh, well that's because you despise me."

Truth is, I said nothing about hating you.  You can believe anything you want.  I'm saying that if you believe things that don't align with reality, it makes no sense inviting you to the discussions about science and evidence.  And that it's absurd for people to ask for religious accommodations for a vaccine by haphazardly trying to weave concepts of science/reality with Genesis, as if they're compatible. 

I'm not going to pretend that I don't find many religious beliefs ridiculous, absurd, or even silly.  You feel the same exact way, just about other religions than your own.  It's why you're not a Hindu, Muslim, or Scientologist.  .....or a flat-earther or chemtrailer.  It's not about hating people that hold certain beliefs.  It's a rejection of those beliefs because they don't align with reality. 

Happy to talk via DM if desired, however I have expressed the extent of what I want to express in public. 

15 hours ago, Pooter said:

Define irony:

The guy who's going to lose his job..

because he's refusing modern medicine..

during a pandemic..

because of something a 2000 year old book told him..

lecturing everyone else on accountability. 

All of this chatter about how bad Christianity is...is pretty sickening.    No one who wants to avoid the vaccine is trying to push it to be abolished so that the others can have it.   
 

additionally, name something that Christianity is pushing on the world that is so bad?   The biggest thing most of you will say is abortion termination.   Watch out!!  We want to avoid murder of helpless babies.

2 minutes ago, bennynova said:

All of this chatter about how bad Christianity is...is pretty sickening.    No one who wants to avoid the vaccine is trying to push it to be abolished so that the others can have it.   
 

additionally, name something that Christianity is pushing on the world that is so bad?   The biggest thing most of you will say is abortion termination.   Watch out!!  We want to avoid murder of helpless babies.

I'd argue the puritan stance against birth control and teaching teens to use it probably creates more abortions than it prevents. 

The huge pushback against legalizing gay marriage, marginalizing a chunk of the population. 

Constant covering up of abuses in large faith organizations. The Catholic Church is the most visible example, but definitely not the only one. 

There's a ton of things the religious right supports that I think are at odds with what Jesus teaches... but there's a Bible verse for everything. 

It is always fun to watch someone quote a Bible verse as support, then clearly ignore the verses before and after it. 

32 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'd argue the puritan stance against birth control and teaching teens to use it probably creates more abortions than it prevents. 

The huge pushback against legalizing gay marriage, marginalizing a chunk of the population. 

Constant covering up of abuses in large faith organizations. The Catholic Church is the most visible example, but definitely not the only one. 

There's a ton of things the religious right supports that I think are at odds with what Jesus teaches... but there's a Bible verse for everything. 

It is always fun to watch someone quote a Bible verse as support, then clearly ignore the verses before and after it. 

No doubt. We've moved from vaccines to just debating the merits of religion as a whole.

Bottom line: I honestly don't believe anyone who got all the other vaccines we get when they claim that ONLY the Covid vaccine violates their religious beliefs. 

Just like I didn't buy the "I don't know what's in it" argument from people who eagerly await the McRib and drink a Monster for breakfast. 

3 hours ago, M2 said:

ADMIN NOTE:  Gents, it's getting ugly in here!  People are losing their sense of civility to each other, and it has to stop!  Personal attacks and name calling will not be tolerated.  Either have an adult discussion and respectfully disagree, or this thread will end.  No more warnings.  Thanks for your understanding and cooperation!

We need a spinoff from the spinoff thread.

1 hour ago, arg said:

We need a spinoff from the spinoff thread.

And where did PYB, er, Dogfish78 retreat to? He starts this thread of insanity then goes dark for months. Playing the long troll game! 😂

Press Briefing by White House COVID-19 Response Team and Public Health Officials | The White House

 

"We are intent on not letting Omicron disrupt work and school for the vaccinated.  You’ve done the right thing, and we will get through this.

For the unvaccinated, you’re looking at a winter of severe illness and death for yourselves, your families, and the hospitals you may soon overwhelm."
 

12 hours ago, Mark1 said:

I would gladly defend religious freedom with my life while simultaneously acknowledging its absurdity and the fact that it is the single greatest source of evil in the history of humanity.

I always hated this line from atheists, and I'm atheist.

 

You can't simultaneously argue that religion is just a human construct that doesn't reflect reality, while pinning the overwhelming majority of human evil on religion. If you can't specify which religion is the most evil, then you aren't making a statement at all. The only logically consistent position for an atheist is to explain religion as a normal and (so far) inescapable desire for humans to put faith in something.

 

But if God doesn't exist, then "religion" describes no group with any meaningful borders. It's like saying sadness is the greatest source of evil, or greed, or jealously. No. Humans are the greatest source of evil. And I'm pretty sure the communists have the record for most fatalities in the modern era, so your point is both logically and factually wrong.

 

The overwhelming amount of charity work has come from religious groups. So is religion the greatest source of good in the history of humanity? 

 

It's always curious when atheists create a replacement for religion that looks a whole lot like religion, in their pursuit of stamping out religion. 

5 hours ago, Negatory said:

I think most people support personal religion up to the point where folks abuse and cherry pick their core values to use religion as a trump card (pun intended) to do whatever they want and impact others. See gay marriage, abortion, COVID, abortion etc.

I don’t even agree with mandates for the whole population, but trying to pursue religious exceptions come off as one of the most disingenuous “You can’t make me!” temper tantrums possible - not a genuinely held belief.

I think you’re right for some people, but I don’t think you’re right on others. I’m not one of them, but I respect their chosen values and beliefs, even if they don’t align with mine. There are a lot of people out there I think have whacko opinions and beliefs founded on nothing legitimate or logical, but I still don’t believe in attacking their character, or acting like a self-righteous asshole towards them/their beliefs. My comment is directed at those who are patronizing dickheads attacking someone’s beliefs - even if I agree with said person, I still think they’re the problem and creating/perpetuating a lot of the issues we see in modern society. 

Believe whatever you want. If you think I'm going to face judgement in front of god because I took a vaccine partially made through stem cell research, that's your prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to think your beliefs are backward and silly. 
 

But at some point we need to acknowledge the reality that not all beliefs are compatible with military service.