The WOKE Thread (Merged from WTF?)

[Guest nsplayr]

11 minutes ago, Pooter said:

But I have multiple female family members who are military pilots, and they say that feeling is something they had, and is still prevalent among girls.

Agreed 1000% on this. When she was a bit younger my oldest daughter told me she didn't know if she wanted to be a pilot because (sic) all the pilots are boys. She did think more about being a librarian because that's what my wife is and guess what, school librarians skew WAAY female. Now she's settled on psychologist - great, good luck with that - funny thing is that she's so far only met female psychologists so maybe she's still a strident sexist (as most kids are in my experience). 😅

I mean, if my kiddo doesn't want to be a pilot for other reasons that's fine, she's allowed to be wrong, but it should not be because she can't envision herself doing it and assumes there's a gendered component to the job just based on how the demographics are today. There is in fact no part of the MQ-9 GCS that you must operate with your penis, I'm continually disappointed to report...

I had to work to introduce her to some women in my squadron because I'm selfish and want a little Guard baby legacy nipping at my old-man heels...problem is there are only 3 ladies who are pilots out of ~55 of us maybe? Not that any of my bros aren't talented and dedicated and deserving of the jobs and all of that, but can you see from a little girl's perspective how it looks?

12 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

The underlying assumption for all DEI is that talent is distributed evenly across the spectrum of humanity. That’s a large assumption….

I’d concede that it’s probably true at level of young children. But once talent becomes merit, and effort, motivation, hard work, aptitude, and drive is involved to increase your merit…all bets are off.

Great, so let's get with kids early and given them all access to good opportunities to succeed and then later on when we're selecting for competitive, highly-paid, highly-valued careers, people have a shot no matter what they look like or where they grew up. I think most people are on board with that in principle.

The rub becomes when you look at the current situation for ATP pilots, that are 95/5 male and 86.9% white (this is a WAG) and see something that isn't the same selection pool as in the kindergarten class, you should absolutely want to look why and figure out if what we're doing right now is truly achieving the above-agreed upon ideal, and then if not, work toward fixing it.

Major airline flight academies are a great way to start this IMHO - start with zero, train all or mostly in-house, funnel to the regionals and main lines when the puppies have met FAA mins and desired experience, train to succeed or cut loose along the way if it's not a good fit. There are tons of people not cut out to be airline pilots because they are dumb, indecisive, won't work hard, etc., 100%. But I firmly believe those undesirable traits are also fairly evenly spread amongst all genders, races, etc. just like the good qualities.

Again, you don't just hire the black trans Romanian with zero flight hours when she shows up at an interview with Delta, I don't think anyone wants that, but you do work to disassemble the structures that lead to undesired unequal outcomes that are a symptom of poorly-distributed talent.

Edited March 17, 2023 by nsplayr

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, HossHarris said:

The underlying assumption for all DEI is that talent is distributed evenly across the spectrum of humanity. 
 

That’s a large assumption….

I’d concede that it’s probably true at level of young children. But once talent becomes merit, and effort, motivation, hard work, aptitude, and drive is involved to increase your merit…all bets are off. 
 

and there are physiological differences amongst groups of humans as well.  For example, There’s a reason there aren’t any women playing in the NFL. and I don’t think it has anything to do with recruiting efforts or barriers to entry. 
 

could a woman attain the merit to play … absolutely… it’s just a lot less likely. 

And there it is. The explanation for white males being an overwhelming majority of professional pilots must be that white males are more inherently suited to the job than any other group. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is not what you really think, but you should understand what it sounds like when you make this argument. Same with the pro sports analogies. I think we can all agree that there are certain physical and genetic attributes that allow people to perform at the ultra high levels of professional athletes. There are absolutely not similar limitations for performance in a cockpit. Are certain individuals more suited to flying airplanes? Of course. But you won’t convince me that the requisite skills skew to the tune of 95% white male. We got to affirmative action/DEI/whatever you want to call it for a reason. There absolutely are barriers for certain groups that shouldn’t be there. I agree that in a perfect world we would all be judged, in the words of Dr. King, by the content of our character vs the color of our skin or any other physical attribute. Unfortunately, that is not the world in which we inhabit. There are still groups that need help breaking breaking barriers because people are still shitty. DEI is an admittedly imperfect band aid for the real world. If people want to debate better solutions, fine, but don’t blow sunshine up everybody’s ass by pretending we live in a post racism/sexism world. 

[FourFans]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

And there it is. The explanation for white males being an overwhelming majority of professional pilots must be that white males are more inherently suited to the job than any other group. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is not what you really think, but you should understand what it sounds like when you make this argument. Same with the pro sports analogies. I think we can all agree that there are certain physical and genetic attributes that allow people to perform at the ultra high levels of professional athletes. There are absolutely not similar limitations for performance in a cockpit. Are certain individuals more suited to flying airplanes? Of course. But you won’t convince me that the requisite skills skew to the tune of 95% white male. We got to affirmative action/DEI/whatever you want to call it for a reason. There absolutely are barriers for certain groups that shouldn’t be there. I agree that in a perfect world we would all be judged, in the words of Dr. King, by the content of our character vs the color of our skin or any other physical attribute. Unfortunately, that is not the world in which we inhabit. There are still groups that need help breaking breaking barriers because people are still shitty. DEI is an admittedly imperfect band aid for the real world. If people want to debate better solutions, fine, but don’t blow sunshine up everybody’s ass by pretending we live in a post racism/sexism world. 

Following your logic train for a minute here.  What are the specific barriers to entry into the pilot world that are filtering out women and minorities?  How is DEI removing those barriers?  Is placing people in jobs due to skin color or gender not racist or sexist?

Are you just as concerned that the overwhelming majority of coal miners are white men too?  We're looking for equity of outcome, right?  So it would stand to reason that you also want to see an even distribution of women and minorities into the oil fields of Texas and in the welding career in North Dakota.  Why is the focus only on the high paying career fields and C-suit perceived disparities.  If we're going to level the playing field, then actually level it.  As it stands, for example in the C-suits of america, women are actually paid higher then men in those same jobs.  Fact.  I say good for them!  Oh, but that's not the stat we want to push because it's counter-narrative.  Hell, you know how many women are in the night-cargo flying business?  VERY FEW.  It's not because they can't hold the job.  It's that very few people actually are willing to sacrifice their body to the sleep cycle murder that's involved.  Or does that make night cargo-flying sexist?  

Perhaps it's time we recognize that different cultures have different values.  Perhaps there are less women entering into the airline business, because, per-capita, there are less women that want that job then there are men who want that job.  During the hiring process at the 8 airlines I interacted with, I witnessed all of ZERO barriers that filtered out anyone by race or gender.  In fact, being a minority or woman upped their chances of getting hired (hear that straight from a hiring pilot's mouth).  A qualified candidate was a qualified candidate.  I'm sure the process to get to that point still has some problems.  Fine.  Get to a 90% solution and go to press.  

But perhaps there's credence to a culture where women are the primary care givers to children while men go earn the living.  Can you imagine if they ACTUALLY CHOSE THAT LIFE?!  CRAZY!  It's almost as if we have some inboard instincts and characteristic that make the genders unique in their ambitions or something.  Is that the ONLY way it should happen?  Absolutely not.  But there appears to be absolutely no credit given to that as a viable way of life.  DEI is clearly intent on making some people more equal than others.  Go re-read animal farm if you want a refresher on that. 

I say remove the prejudiced barriers to entry, retain the ones that enforce quality, and let people vote with their feet.  Forcing change with DEI bullshit is just a distractor, and really is another form of tyrannical power grabbing.  It's been done.  Forcing everyone to be equal never ends well.  Talk to anyone older than 50 and from east of Poland and you'll find out how it went.

Edited March 18, 2023 by FourFans

[Biff_T]

14 hours ago, skibum said:

Meh - I've got a dozen stories just like that with regular dudes. Your sample size is a bit low. I've had more issues with some pussy AC/DO/CC types who couldn't make a decision to sit a low-performing idiot just because. This was long before we celebrated people for cutting off a penis.

I flew with a gay pilot in the early 2000s.  Nobody knew he was gay.  He didn't prance around or anything.  He was an awesome pilot.  I always respected him for being a great pilot, even before I knew he was gay.  A few years later, when they allowed gay people to serve, he came out and was married.   One of the most squared  away dudes I flew with.  You would have never known.  I still respect him.  

I flew with two Pilots who transitioned after I retired.  One was a good stick (STS).  I can't speak for this person recently though. 

The second one was the scariest rated pilot I flew with for 17 years AD and 2 years at Compass (RIP)..lol

1/2 of the identitied Trans I've encountered can fly level.   If I've flown with any trans/gay and I didn't recognize it.  Awesome, because they didn't tell me how they like to fuck.   I didn't care, unless I was involved in the playful shenanigans.  

Just don't tell me DEI is heading in a logical direction.  

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Biff_T
Spelling bee failure

[Boomer6]

1 hour ago, FourFans said:

Following your logic train for a minute here.  What are the specific barriers to entry into the pilot world that are filtering out women and minorities?  How is DEI removing those barriers?  Is placing people in jobs due to skin color or gender not racist or sexist?

Those pushing DEI have no issues with racist/sexist hiring practices because the ends justify the means. Those practices are part of the “help” and “removal of barriers” that are alluded to, but they don’t have the integrity to openly grant their approval.

I find it comical the same individuals that will argue with the conservative dudes on here for hours about how the main stream media bias/hunter Biden laptop story/pick your conservative conspiracy theory are all just BS and there’s no real collusion. Then they’ll jump in this thread and demand that we all agree there’s a large barrier put in place by white males to anyone else entering aviation.

If the liberal minded individuals in the room don’t realize that their quiet endorsement of racism/sexism/gender in the hiring process is extremely hypocritical then you’re never going to find common ground with conservatives. You can’t virtue signal day and night and then agree with these practices and think you have any credibility. I’ve yet to hear anyone say “we shouldn’t be reaching out to underrepresented communities” when it comes to aviation. Using race/sex/gender as a discriminator is what is being argued against. It’s happening  in the government and on the civilian side, it’s been happening and the ends don’t justify the means.

[FLEA]

8 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

Those pushing DEI have no issues with racist/sexist hiring practices because the ends justify the means. Those practices are part of the “help” and “removal of barriers” that are alluded to, but they don’t have the integrity to openly grant their approval.

I find it comical the same individuals that will argue with the conservative dudes on here for hours about how the main stream media bias/hunter Biden laptop story/pick your conservative conspiracy theory are all just BS and there’s no real collusion. Then they’ll jump in this thread and demand that we all agree there’s a large barrier put in place by white males to anyone else entering aviation.

If the liberal minded individuals in the room don’t realize that their quiet endorsement of racism/sexism/gender in the hiring process is extremely hypocritical then you’re never going to find common ground with conservatives. You can’t virtue signal day and night and then agree with these practices and think you have any credibility. I’ve yet to hear anyone say “we shouldn’t be reaching out to underrepresented communities” when it comes to aviation. Using race/sex/gender as a discriminator is what is being argued against. It’s happening  in the government and on the civilian side, it’s been happening and the ends don’t justify the means.

Except none of that is actually happening. Noone is hiring based on race or gender. This is a hysteria some people are hung on and it is simply a myth a overwhelmingly large proportion of the time. Hiring based on race and gender is against federal law, has been against federal law, and will continue to be against federal law. And this idea that the main stream DEI crowd is trying to overturn that law is not in touch with reality. 

[ViperMan]

7 hours ago, nsplayr said:

As I’ve mentioned several times, there’s some imbalance that’s expected due to preferences. Is it 50/50, 60/40, 70/30, etc. I don’t know, don’t really care one way or the other. But it ain’t 95/5, especially for a lucrative and well respected career field. You have to see that something there is probably not ideally distributed. You have some low-performers in the 95% group who can and should be overlooked for very talented folks in the 5% group who haven’t been given a shot.

Percentage wise there are more male elementary school teachers than female ATP pilots, and I can tell you for sure elementary education doesn’t pay for shit and is not high-status.

It’s worth thinking about how we arrived at 95/5, what talented folks we’re missing out on because of that, and figuring out ways to move toward a better mix that actually maximizes talent in the long term.

I personally know many extremely talented & valuable PhDs, JDs, MDs, etc. that would have never been in those career fields even one generation ago due to racial or gender norms of the time. It’s much better for everyone that we’ve moved beyond that today, and my point that hits close to home perhaps is that ATP pilots as a group are well behind the 8-ball in this regard.

More people would take you seriously if you could offer a coherent theory that explains all manner of differences in gendered choices people make when selecting career fields. You think that women are kept out of becoming pilots due to...barriers? Okay. What are they? And if those are barriers keeping women out, then how about you explain why there are other career fields that have drastically worse gender gaps than piloting does. Don't think 95/5 can just happen? Ok. How about 98.8/1.2? How about 99.7/.3? What about 99.2/.8??? That's all unnatural according to you.

Your view doesn't explain anything. You assume a conclusion and then point to data to support your argument. Problem is, your argument doesn't account for any of the (worse) differences below, and has no actual hope of addressing or explaining them. You need to explain why piloting at 95/5 is anomalous, but yet these other outliers are not. I'll wait.

No. The simple answer is being a pilot appeals to more to men, and has other some other attendant difficulties that make it tougher on women - such as being away on the road for days and weeks at a time - but that has nothing to do with discrimination.

Here's a fact: any women who wanted to be a pilot as bad as I did is a pilot. Some who wanted it less than I did are still pilots. Most who wanted it way less than that aren't. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing this job, or any other job listed below, except themselves. Men and women are different and that's ok. We evolved different strengths in order to be a more adaptable species. It's really quite simple.

 

[brabus]

41 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Noone is hiring based on race or gender.

There’s the law, and then there’s reality. You can’t possibly be so aloof to think this doesn’t happen. I’ve seen it with my own eyes more than once. You are wrong.

Related - have you payed attention to Asians getting completely fucked by DEI in this country? If not, look into it, it is in fact very much happening. 

[CaptainMorgan]

nsplayr’s kids don’t want to be pilots because he’s a nav, and he has talked shit about pilots his entire career.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FLEA]

58 minutes ago, brabus said:

There’s the law, and then there’s reality. You can’t possibly be so aloof to think this doesn’t happen. I’ve seen it with my own eyes more than once. You are wrong.

Related - have you payed attention to Asians getting completely fucked by DEI in this country? If not, look into it, it is in fact very much happening. 

Show me where? That's all I'm asking.... Still looking for the ROTC policy memo that states you get extra points on your order of merit if you are a minority or woman.... Or the Academy memo that directs ascensions to only come from one category. 

I work in the tech sector now. (Decided not to go airlines) and I'm not seeing it. Youre making a huge leap from "talent recruiters told to focus women and minorities" to "hiring authorities told to favor minorities." 

There just isn't any data to back up this assertion that it's happening except all this anecdotal evidence that people once knew a minority pilot that sucked at their job. I mean I knew a lot of white male pilots that sucked at their job too..... It doesn't really mean anything. At some point that person completed multiple training programs, passed multiple checkrides, earned and ATP..... Were every one of those hiring officials, flight examiners and instructor pilots all on in on this DEI conspiracy or is it possible maybe just possible, that you get some pilots who just fall through the cracks regularly...... 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by FLEA

[CaptainMorgan]

Show me where? That's all I'm asking.... Still looking for the ROTC policy memo that states you get extra points on your order of merit if you are a minority or woman.... Or the Academy memo that directs ascensions to only come from one category. 
I work in the tech sector now. (Decided not to go airlines) and I'm not seeing it. Youre making a huge leap from "talent recruiters told to focus women and minorities" to "hiring authorities told to favor minorities." 
There just isn't any data to back up this assertion that it's happening except all this anecdotal evidence that people once knew a minority pilot that sucked at their job. I mean I knew a lot of white male pilots that sucked at their job too..... It doesn't really mean anything. At some point that person completed multiple training programs, passed multiple checkrides, earned and ATP..... Were every one of those hiring officials, flight examiners and instructor pilots all on in on this DEI conspiracy or is it possible maybe just possible, that you get some pilots who just fall through the cracks regularly...... 
 

Wish I had saved it, and maybe a FOIA request would dig it up, but at one point the AETC 36-2605 specifically called for Commander’s Reviews for minority and female students to be reviewed by the AETC/CC. Now it just says “AETC/A3 staff will maintain entry, production, and elimination data to ensure fairness and equitable opportunity for all flying training program candidates.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brabus]

Dude, you just glossed over what I wrote. I don’t know a guy who knows of a guy, I’ve personally seen it first hand. Another example is colleges blatantly use race as a decision factor in admittance…and SCOTUS has upheld the legality of that, for now anyways. Asians are perhaps getting the most fucked, as they’ve been purposely excluded from “BIPOC” but also aren’t “white.” The pursuit of “perceived fairness” is alive and well, but I guess you’re too blind to see it. 

[Lord Ratner]

On 3/16/2023 at 8:30 PM, nsplayr said:

95% of ATP holders are men for example…there’s just no believable explanation for how we arrived at that by chance or “merit” alone.

False.

 

Research in the Nordic countries has shown that as a society gets more gender equal, the disparity in job selection increases. 

 

Women and men are different biologically, with different interests. People vs Things, for example.

 

High risk, plus being away from home, plus things-vs-people, and it's not surprising women don't seek the job like men do.

 

Now there's no biological reason for black underrepresentation, but until our society is ready to tackle the cultural and socioeconomic problems of the poor, which is disproportionally black in the US, we aren't getting anywhere. Just look at San Francisco which is moving closer to dooming black people forever, if this insane reparations scheme comes to pass.

 

Progressives never want to address the root cause. They want the immediate fix, and it doesn't exist.

[pawnman]

5 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

False.

 

Research in the Nordic countries has shown that as a society gets more gender equal, the disparity in job selection increases. 

 

Women and men are different biologically, with different interests. People vs Things, for example.

 

High risk, plus being away from home, plus things-vs-people, and it's not surprising women don't seek the job like men do.

 

Now there's no biological reason for black underrepresentation, but until our society is ready to tackle the cultural and socioeconomic problems of the poor, which is disproportionally black in the US, we aren't getting anywhere. Just look at San Francisco which is moving closer to dooming black people forever, if this insane reparations scheme comes to pass.

 

Progressives never want to address the root cause. They want the immediate fix, and it doesn't exist.

Not sure that even in Nordic countries there are many 95/5% splits in jobs by gender...

[Lord Ratner]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

Not sure that even in Nordic countries there are many 95/5% splits in jobs by gender...

That's because statistics work oddly at the extremes.

 

The aggression gap between men and women is only tilted 60/40, yet violent criminals are overwhelming men.

 

Same with the Olympics. All men aren't stronger/faster/better than all women, yet 100% of physical sports would be won by men at the Olympic level of not for the gender split.

 

Think of pilot like the Olympics of jobs.

[Guest nsplayr]

17 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Think of pilot like the Olympics of jobs.

Ok Hercules, flying planes ain’t that hard 😂

[Biff_T]

My favorite part of the trans movement in the military was when they called the entire squadron in so my favorite pilot, wearing a wig, could tell us all he's now a woman.  This was a month or so after I flew with him on that sweet 40 minute flight where he couldn't maintain +/- 100 feet in the pattern.  UPT let us down lol.

 It was almost like a down day but instead of tackling other aviation/personnel issues,  we had to spend the day learning about trans people.  That was the weirdest moment I encountered in the military.  I retired a few months later.  

Explain to me how this made us more lethal?  Besides giving his flight time to other LTs...lol

[HeloDude]

43 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Ok Hercules, flying planes ain’t that hard 😂

Is this why you became a nav?

[kaputt]

5 hours ago, pawnman said:

Not sure that even in Nordic countries there are many 95/5% splits in jobs by gender...

https://simpleflying.com/guess-which-country-has-the-most-female-pilots/
 

According to this article, the best ratio in the entire world is Air India at 12%. The other European nations mentioned pretty closely match the ratio in the US. The article mentions the Nordic country of Finland as having one of the lowest percentages, but then doesn’t mention the actual number. I searched myself and found a Facebook post from Finn Airlines themselves in 2017 that said 3% of their pilots are female. That same post mentioned 88% of their cabin crew is female. 
 

So is there some global conspiracy against women in aviation now too? There’s a couple “progressive” countries listed in that article with a nearly identical ratio to the United States. 
 

This is the problem with chasing “equitable” statistics, they don’t hold up to the reality of what actual human beings desire to do. Like has been said a million times in this thread, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to get as many girls and women interested in aviation as possible. I’m certain that everyone in here has flown with some kickass female pilots.
 

But what happens if in 20 years we double the amount of Female ATPs, but they still only represent 10% of the airline pilot community? Instead of celebrating success at doubling the interest of women in aviation, I’d be willing to bet a significantly large sum of money the leftists of the this forum and country would still be decrying the “inequitable” world of aviation. 

[hindsight2020]

I just find it funny how women are taken at their word, and their reasons implied as gender-role-appropriate, for eschewing an airline career thus contributing to the demographic labor participation disparity... but when a man espouses the same reasons on here it's all of a sudden blasphemy?

Misogynist and misandrist at the same time, didn't know that was possible. Seriously, where's mai eh-KWal-e-taaah! 😄 

/sarc..ish

P.S. I noted they did finally installed the koala-care baby changing station at the men's pisser at work....yet there's still that unsanitary gaping @ss hole on the wall from the urinal they ripped out when it went weapons active and started shooting high pressure piss water at bystanders. I mean, what gives? Does everything have to be zero-sum around here?! 😄

[O Face]

20 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Agreed 1000% on this. When she was a bit younger my oldest daughter told me she didn't know if she wanted to be a pilot because (sic) all the pilots are boys. She did think more about being a librarian because that's what my wife is and guess what, school librarians skew WAAY female. Now she's settled on psychologist - great, good luck with that - funny thing is that she's so far only met female psychologists so maybe she's still a strident sexist (as most kids are in my experience). 😅

I mean, if my kiddo doesn't want to be a pilot for other reasons that's fine, she's allowed to be wrong, but it should not be because she can't envision herself doing it and assumes there's a gendered component to the job just based on how the demographics are today. There is in fact no part of the MQ-9 GCS that you must operate with your penis, I'm continually disappointed to report...

I had to work to introduce her to some women in my squadron because I'm selfish and want a little Guard baby legacy nipping at my old-man heels...problem is there are only 3 ladies who are pilots out of ~55 of us maybe? Not that any of my bros aren't talented and dedicated and deserving of the jobs and all of that, but can you see from a little girl's perspective how it looks?

Regardless of gender, if I were a kid and was taken to visit a drone squadron, I’d choose the librarian path too. 

[Guest nsplayr]

2 minutes ago, O Face said:

Regardless of gender, if I were a kid and was taken to visit a drone squadron, I’d choose the librarian path too. 

The library is very fun, gotta agree on that. We do have a ping pong table and an oculus video game setup in the bar though, so those were pretty convincing to a middle schooler.

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, nsplayr said:

Ok Hercules, flying planes ain’t that hard 😂

Missing the point. When lots of people want to do it but only a few can, you start operating on the tails of normal distribution curves, which will result in huge disparities despite small statistical differences. 

 

I know the idea of a popular job is foreign to a nav, but use your imagination. 😝

Edited March 18, 2023 by Lord Ratner

[FourFans]

This quote seems to be an exact foretelling of what we're living through right now.

“What I want to fix your attention on is the vast, overall movement towards the discrediting, and finally the elimination, of every kind of human excellence—moral, cultural, social, or intellectual. And is it not pretty to notice how Democracy (in the incantatory sense) is now doing for us the work that was once done by the most ancient Dictatorships, and by the same methods? You remember how one of the Greek Dictators (they called them ‘tyrants’ then) sent an envoy to another Dictator to ask his advice about the principles of government. The second Dictator led the envoy into a field of corn, and there he snicked off with his cane the top of every stalk that rose an inch or so above the general level. The moral was plain. Allow no pre-eminence among your subjects. Let no man live who is wiser, or better, or more famous, or even handsomer than the mass. Cut them all down to a level; all slaves, all ciphers, all nobodies. All equals. Thus Tyrants could practise, in a sense, ‘democracy’. But now ‘democracy’ can do the same work without any other tyranny than her own. No one need now go through the field with a cane. The little stalks will now of themselves bite the tops off the big ones. The big ones are beginning to bite off their own in their desire to Be Like Stalks.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters: Also Includes "Screwtape Proposes a Toast"

[FourFans]

@nsplayr Elsewhere you were musing and wondering what liberal left stuff are we concerned about

This:https://www.cbssports.com/general/news/vermont-high-school-banned-from-tournaments-after-refusing-to-play-team-with-transgender-player/#:~:text=The Vermont girls high school,will apply to all sports.

Edited March 18, 2023 by FourFans
editorial commentary removed