The new airline thread

[matmacwc]

2 hours ago, Danny Noonin said:

ARTs can’t legally be on mil leave for any civilian day.

Nope, but they can take 160 hours of leave for the month to do indoc and/or initial training then return to the ART world until IOE or the leave runs out.  I also know SQ/CC’s are a carve out in the ART/mil leave rules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guardian]

So.....you're asking (for your friend) if it's ok to be full time active duty military (which is what an AGR is doing), without any intention of stopping full time military service, while starting employment at an airline under the auspices of going to work for them by taking some of your leave, only to leave the airline once your seniority number is secured?  All by using USERRA protections to screw the company without ever leaving or intending to leave full time active duty service in the military?
How on God's green earth does someone think this could possibly be OK?
 

Don’t know. Just looking for the reference.

[hindsight2020]

25 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Don’t know. Just looking for the reference.

Try DOD 5500.07-R , DOD JOINT ETHICS REGULATION, Section 2, subsection 206 and further.

Here's the bottom line: AGR is Active Duty for the purposes of civilian employment. As such, you need a DOS, or authorization to work that civilian job in lieu of. Your chain of command is never going to approve it, which is why your buddy would never intend to ask for it anyways. So when your friend interviews and gets that CJO as an AGR, he is specifically directed to provide a verbal and/or written statement of availability date based on a DD214 separation or a DOS in lieu of DD214.  Your friend as we all well know, wouldn't be in a position to fulfill the request, so he'd perjuring himself in the eyes of the airline.

Once that blue falcon attempts to drop long tour MLOA, he'll furnish an AGR order (the only one he's always had) with a start date that precedes the CJO date, and he will be summarily dismissed by the airline with cause for lying on an application. He may also face administrative punishment on the military side for accepting and engaging in outside employment (even half a day at indoc) in violation of DOD ethics rules, nevermind conduct unbecoming for being a lying POS. A complete layup for non-judicial punishment IAW the UCMJ as an activated member on status.

The legal way of doing it is to provide an availability date to coincide with the curtailment. Most AGRs interview, get a CJO, then proceed to submit curtailment paperwork that allows a DOS to be established and that falls prior to indoc (with the exception of terminal leave, which is legal). But they show up with a DOS in hand when they step foot at the indoc building. Then and only then can they attempt to seek a new AGR tour with effective date post-hiring.

Don't kid yourself, NAF may also have a bone to pick with that stunt. This isn't conjecture, this became verbal warning circa 2013 by (nn)NAF/CC when United started hiring in earnest and AGRs started pulling that very stunt I describe. NAF is fully in their legal right from stop you from getting re-hired by your sweetheart unit doing ya that solid.  And I say that as a career AGR myself who would face that very scenario if I decided to go airlines before my 20. It's just a terrible precedent in my eyes, and unabated blue falconry against both your airline peers and your squadron peers. But it would technically be legal. The former scenario of never curtailing however, that would be patently illegal.

In short, blue falcons is why we can't have nice things.....

[Buddy Spike]

7 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Try DOD 5500.07-R , DOD JOINT ETHICS REGULATION, Section 2, subsection 206 and further.

Here's the bottom line: AGR is Active Duty for the purposes of civilian employment. As such, you need a DOS, or authorization to work that civilian job in lieu of. Your chain of command is never going to approve it, which is why your buddy would never intend to ask for it anyways. So when your friend interviews and gets that CJO as an AGR, he is specifically directed to provide a verbal and/or written statement of availability date based on a DD214 separation or a DOS in lieu of DD214.  Your friend as we all well know, wouldn't be in a position to fulfill the request, so he'd perjuring himself in the eyes of the airline.

Once that blue falcon attempts to drop long tour MLOA, he'll furnish an AGR order (the only one he's always had) with a start date that precedes the CJO date, and he will be summarily dismissed by the airline with cause for lying on an application. He may also face administrative punishment on the military side for accepting and engaging in outside employment (even half a day at indoc) in violation of DOD ethics rules, nevermind conduct unbecoming for being a lying POS. A complete layup for non-judicial punishment IAW the UCMJ as an activated member on status.

The legal way of doing it is to provide an availability date to coincide with the curtailment. Most AGRs interview, get a CJO, then proceed to submit curtailment paperwork that allows a DOS to be established and that falls prior to indoc (with the exception of terminal leave, which is legal). But they show up with a DOS in hand when they step foot at the indoc building. Then and only then can they attempt to seek a new AGR tour with effective date post-hiring.

Don't kid yourself, NAF may also have a bone to pick with that stunt. This isn't conjecture, this became verbal warning circa 2013 by (nn)NAF/CC when United started hiring in earnest and AGRs started pulling that very stunt I describe. NAF is fully in their legal right from stop you from getting re-hired by your sweetheart unit doing ya that solid.  And I say that as a career AGR myself who would face that very scenario if I decided to go airlines before my 20. It's just a terrible precedent in my eyes, and unabated blue falconry against both your airline peers and your squadron peers. But it would technically be legal. The former scenario of never curtailing however, that would be patently illegal.

In short, blue falcons is why we can't have nice things.....

This.

Plus, I don't think you'd be covered under USERRA for the orders.

 

In general, if the employee has been absent from a position of civilian employment by reason of service in the uniformed Services, he or she will be eligible for reemployment under USERRA by meeting the following criteria:

• The employer had advance notice of the employee’s military obligation;
• The employee has been away from this employer five years or less due to military obligations (excluding exemptions);
• The employee returns to work in a timely manner as defined under USERRA; and,
• The employee has not been separated from uniformed Services with a disqualifying discharge or under other than honorable conditions.

https://www.esgr.mil/USERRA/Frequently-Asked-Questions

 

[Guardian]

Gotcha. Thanks. So what’s the difference between this and another job while on active duty? I have seen and heard of plenty of people with outside employment while on full time orders or active duty? Don’t think I don’t appreciate your answers. I do. Zero emotion here. Not a part of the convo.

[17D_guy]

Gotcha. Thanks. So what’s the difference between this and another job while on active duty? I have seen and heard of plenty of people with outside employment while on full time orders or active duty? Don’t think I don’t appreciate your answers. I do. Zero emotion here. Not a part of the convo.

I've never seen active duty officers work another job. Hobbies that made them money... Sure. But not something with dedicated hours and "a boss.". I know there was clear guidance of "no" while I was on OTS.

Enlisted, all the time with CC approval.

[Buddy Spike]

24 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Gotcha. Thanks. So what’s the difference between this and another job while on active duty? I have seen and heard of plenty of people with outside employment while on full time orders or active duty? Don’t think I don’t appreciate your answers. I do. Zero emotion here. Not a part of the convo.

How are you going to get 18 days off per month to sit short call in domicile from your AGR gig?  What happens if your trip falls apart at some out base and you can't make it back to do your AGR job?  And more importantly, WHY would anyone want to do two jobs simultaneously when the whole point is to go to the airlines to work less?

 

[SocialD]

23 minutes ago, RTB said:

...How on God's green earth does someone think this could possibly be OK?

Are you really surprised?  There are plenty that use USERRA to have their cake and eat it too.  I have witnessed some pretty unethical, albeit totally legal, shit go down with respect to using MLOA to ones advantage...and others  disadvantage.  Then people wonder why the company is looking a little closer at our MLOA or asking a question or two when you start changing stuff around post schedule release. 

[Guardian]

Are you really surprised?  There are plenty that use USERRA to have their cake and eat it too.  I have witnessed some pretty unethical, albeit totally legal, shit go down with respect to using MLOA to ones advantage...and others  disadvantage.  Then people wonder why the company is looking a little closer at our MLOA or asking a question or two when you start changing stuff around post schedule release. 

Again. I really appreciate your time. I don’t understand the finer points as you seem to. Why would something that’s legal be unethical? Also, I have seen officers have other jobs while employed full time. I have been one of those people around 10 years ago. And no idea what my buddy is kicking around. For some reason he thought I would have an answer and I don’t. So I ask you guys. Thanks for the reply.

[hindsight2020]

7 minutes ago, Guardian said:

 Why would something that’s legal be unethical? 

[Duck]

As far as I know, it is completely legal to screw around with someone who isn’t your wife. However most consider it unethical and generally a bad idea.

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Why would something that’s legal be unethical? Also, I have seen officers have other jobs while employed full time. 

I don't believe there is anything wrong with having another job, as long as it's OK'd by the boss. Did any of those officers go into their other jobs with full intention of NOT working there after they get on property?  IMHO (which isn't worth much), it seems like an abuse of a law that is meant to protect us when we have to drill, go TDY, deploy or even fill a vital role in the squadron that pops up down the road.   

WRT to something legal vs unethical.  Watched this happen...  Dude doesn't pre-post MLOA and gets assigned a 6-day coverage trip (means he didn't want it but got it because he's junior) that spans Christmas eve/day.  Due to manning he is unable to drop the trip.  He then uses one day of MLOA on the first day of the trip to drop it.  He immediately picks up a highly lucrative trip that started on day 2 of the original trip.  This trip gets him back home Christmas eve morning.  I'm sure he will go do some mil duty at the base, but to use MLOA to get a holidays off is a bit unethical, though totally legal.

[RTB]

3 hours ago, SocialD said:

I don't believe there is anything wrong with having another job, as long as it's OK'd by the boss. Did any of those officers go into their other jobs with full intention of NOT working there after they get on property?  IMHO (which isn't worth much), it seems like an abuse of a law that is meant to protect us when we have to drill, go TDY, deploy or even fill a vital role in the squadron that pops up down the road.   

WRT to something legal vs unethical.  Watched this happen...  Dude doesn't pre-post MLOA and gets assigned a 6-day coverage trip (means he didn't want it but got it because he's junior) that spans Christmas eve/day.  Due to manning he is unable to drop the trip.  He then uses one day of MLOA on the first day of the trip to drop it.  He immediately picks up a highly lucrative trip that started on day 2 of the original trip.  This trip gets him back home Christmas eve morning.  I'm sure he will go do some mil duty at the base, but to use MLOA to get a holidays off is a bit unethical, though totally legal.

You are correct, many O's have picked up part time jobs  or run a side business.  Only caveat is that your other job can't interfere with your military duties and the JAG usually has to review it to be sure you're not creating some kind of conflict of interest.  For example, working for a defense contractor part time with duties that overlap with your AD job.  You certainly can't work a FULL TIME civilian job while on FULL TIME active duty orders, I'm sure we're all in agreement on that.

USERRA was not written with the expectation that 'the troops' would use it to game the system, cheat their companies, and massage their schedules.  But that's exactly what some have decided to do.  And if anyone is asking why it bothers me/us, here's why...when a dude pulls a bullshit move like SocialD described above over Christmas (definitely happens), what do you think happens to that trip that spanned Christmas?  That's right, someone else without the USERRA get out of jail free card gets shacked with the trip and misses Christmas when they otherwise would have been home.  It's always amazing to me how much home station military duty (and on an unrelated note, ALPA work) happens over Christmas driving so much MLOA.  I seem to remember the base being a ghost town...

[RogAir]

23 hours ago, RTB said:

 And if anyone is asking why it bothers me/us, here's why...when a dude pulls a bullshit move like SocialD described above over Christmas (definitely happens), what do you think happens to that trip that spanned Christmas?  That's right, someone else without the USERRA get out of jail free card gets shacked with the trip and misses Christmas when they otherwise would have been home.  It's always amazing to me how much home station military duty (and on an unrelated note, ALPA work) happens over Christmas driving so much MLOA.  I seem to remember the base being a ghost town...

When I was the Chief Pilot at my unit I briefed my guys I would back them up 100% on MLOA disputes with their airlines UNLESS they were gaming the system over the holidays, then I would side with the airline. You are screwing over the buddy who has to fly the Xmas trip and you are screwing over the buddies in the unit who may be trying to get hired by that airline.  Fly your damn Xmas trip. 

[Prozac]

Anyone looking to game the system should do themselves and anyone looking to leave the military for airline flying a favor and forget trying that bullshit. You are literally screwing all your buddies down the line because the airline that you (perhaps legally) are taking advantage of is going to look at every potential mil new hire through the brown colored water that you just shit in. Additionally, mil guys already on the property who are doing their best to do things ethically are going to get caught up in the ball of dung that you just insisted on starting downhill. As if all of that isn’t enough, do not underestimate the fact that there are varying levels of animosity festering amongst your non mil co-workers. Don’t be the guy that confirms their suspicion that it’s your fault they’re sitting reserve over their kid’s birthday while you’re off doing whatever it is you do. 

[Sneedro]

If you aren't on MIL duty...DON'T be on MIL leave from the airlines, simple as that.  If your mindset is you will "weather the storm" during those years of low seniority where you can't control your schedule like you'd like by using MIL leave to get birthdays, holidays, or whatever off...find a different profession.  How would you like not getting a job offer because dudes before you gamed the system for themselves and the airlines got sick of it?  I'd bet you'd be pissed so why even consider pulling that shit on those hoping to follow in your footsteps?  Every single military dude/dudette who uses MIL leave to their advantage screws over the rest and makes everyone's life harder.  If you have legit work, by all means take the leave over whatever days you need.  Don't F your buddy!  It's really not that difficult yet even when I went through INDOC you'd hear guys talking about how they won't miss holidays because of their ability to use MIL leave...it's disgusting.

[matmacwc]

What is a chief pilot?

[Azimuth]

50 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

What is a chief pilot?

The job given to the ROAD Maj/Lt Col who just wants to fly until retirement.

[Guardian]

If you aren't on MIL duty...DON'T be on MIL leave from the airlines, simple as that.  If your mindset is you will "weather the storm" during those years of low seniority where you can't control your schedule like you'd like by using MIL leave to get birthdays, holidays, or whatever off...find a different profession.  How would you like not getting a job offer because dudes before you gamed the system for themselves and the airlines got sick of it?  I'd bet you'd be pissed so why even consider pulling that shit on those hoping to follow in your footsteps?  Every single military dude/dudette who uses MIL leave to their advantage screws over the rest and makes everyone's life harder.  If you have legit work, by all means take the leave over whatever days you need.  Don't F your buddy!  It's really not that difficult yet even when I went through INDOC you'd hear guys talking about how they won't miss holidays because of their ability to use MIL leave...it's disgusting.

Thanks for the response. Take away the mil leave to not work Holidays, birthdays, special occasions part. Just focus on someone being on mil leave while also employed at an airline. Does is really screw over your buddy? Are people really not getting hired for that very reason? Is there proof? Or is it just someone’s guess as to why they didn’t hired. Not at all trying to upset anyone. Just seriously asking how it screws over people to serve in the military as well as have an airline job during a national pilot shortage at both the airlines and military. 5 years ago I might agree. Right now it doesn’t seem like it’s the case. If someone isn’t getting a job right now I have to imagine it’s because they don’t fit what the company wants. Not because someone before that person went back to the military for a time to serve their country in the countries time of need voluntarily and legally. Just really having a hard time wrapping my head around the logic. Any and all answers welcome.

[Champ Kind]

7 minutes ago, Guardian said:

 Is there proof?... Just really having a hard time wrapping my head around the logic. 

Would you straight-up tell your AFRC/ANG unit commander and your company's chief pilot exactly what it is you're up to and the circumstances behind those actions?  If not, I think you have your answer.  For some reason you seem to be beating a dead horse, and despite other people's attempts you seem to still have a lack of SA.

Disclaimer:  I'm still AD USAF.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Champ Kind

[Guardian]

Would you straight-up tell your AFRC/ANG unit commander and your company's chief pilot exactly what it is you're up to and the circumstances behind those actions?  If not, I think you have your answer.  For some reason you seem to be beating a dead horse, and despite other people's attempts you seem to still have a lack of SA.

 

Disclaimer:  I'm still AD USAF.

If I was in an airline and went back on active orders? Yes to both.

 

And again. No one is answering with hard statements, facts, or examples. Just feelings. No dead horse here. Haven’t received an answer yet.

[Sneedro]

8 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Thanks for the response. Take away the mil leave to not work Holidays, birthdays, special occasions part. Just focus on someone being on mil leave while also employed at an airline. Does is really screw over your buddy? Are people really not getting hired for that very reason? Is there proof? Or is it just someone’s guess as to why they didn’t hired. Not at all trying to upset anyone. Just seriously asking how it screws over people to serve in the military as well as have an airline job during a national pilot shortage at both the airlines and military. 5 years ago I might agree. Right now it doesn’t seem like it’s the case. If someone isn’t getting a job right now I have to imagine it’s because they don’t fit what the company wants. Not because someone before that person went back to the military for a time to serve their country in the countries time of need voluntarily and legally. Just really having a hard time wrapping my head around the logic. Any and all answers welcome.

Can't specifically say there's direct proof people aren't being hired because they are serving in the reserves because I don't necessarily think it is happening.  I have buddies at the regionals with FAR more part 121 time and experience than any AF buddy I know.  My AF buddies are getting hired in front of my regional buddies about 75% of the time (personal experience).  I'd love more of the dudes still serving I know to feel comfortable at their chances approaching their departure from AD that they can get the call from a major vs having to spend time at the regionals.  So it may not be an issue now...but we should as a group work to keep it that way.  Lets not create a problem where one doesn't necessarily exist.

Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely no problem using MIL leave.  I use it when I need too, and if my mil duty cx for whatever reason, I go through the process to have it removed from my schedule and I got back on reserve or try and pick up the original trip or another one (not everyone does that but to each their own).  The issue comes in when people conveniently drop any and all trips that ever touch a holiday.  The airlines are accommodating but they aren't stupid.  They know people abuse the program.  I think the best "proof" the airlines, well my airline, is clamping down is that there are more and more circumstances of the company demanding some sort of proof that you did in fact have MIL leave when you said.  They have tried to stretch the limits in how they do this so the union has stepped in to help protect guys as much as they can.  However, if you lie and get caught then you deserve what you get.  

Champ said it best I think, if you can't face to face tell your airline's chief pilot what exactly you are dropping MLOA for and then allow him/her to call your reserve CC to confirm, don't do it.  They have your CC's number so they can call anytime they want with or without your knowledge. 

Bottom line:  If you have MIL duty, no matter when it is, take MIL leave.  If you don't, then don't.  

[Guardian]

Great unemotional answer. 100% agree about integrity in all aspects. And in fact I am someone who would rather fly on the holidays when others don’t anyways. I appreciate your time and conversation. Thanks.

[Sneedro]

12 minutes ago, Guardian said:

If I was in an airline and went back on active orders? Yes to both.

 

And again. No one is answering with hard statements, facts, or examples. Just feelings. No dead horse here. Haven’t received an answer yet.

Not exactly sure what your question is then I guess...sorry

There is ZERO issues going back on active orders with your reserve squadron while at an airline.  I have known guys to go on orders for years at a time.  You get orders, send them into your airline, and you will have your MIL leave on your schedule.  What guys are saying is, don't drop MIL leave (you can drop a day, two days, week, month, year, years, or whatever the duration as needed) unless you have actual work to do.  Abusing the system will make yours and all the others still serving life harder at the airlines.  I personally show up, fly my trip, and then go home.  Outside of that I do my monthly bids, any training, and that's it.  I really don't want any more hassle because some people prefer to abuse the system for their own gain.

Hard fact/statement:  At my airline there have been circumstances with the company demanding points summaries from dudes/dudettes who have dropped MIL leave over busy seasons and/or holidays during the year all of a sudden.  The problem isn't so much their request, it has been that they want a points summary going back 36 months in some cases.  While they can't do that per the law, hence the union getting involved, they are trying to find abusers because it has gotten worse in regards to the amount of MIL leave being used.  Granted there's an overall AF and airline pilot shortage so the airlines need more productivity and the reserves need more help so it's kind of a problem that just compounds itself...

[Guardian]

Ah. Gotcha. Makes total sense and I understand your points. Thanks.