The Next President is...

[M2]

3 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

I think it's already on eBay! 

[Prozac]

R’s should’ve taken the opportunity to impeach Trump and take their party back when they had the chance. Fuck anyone who continued to go along with his seditious post-election charade. Not saying the Dems are without their own problems, but the R’s will be paying for this little four year tryst for a long time. I rarely make predictions but here’s one: Lindsay Graham lasts one more term before inevitable demographic changes in his state take him out of the senate. Had he had the balls to stand by his 2016 pre-election assessment of Trump he might have a chance. But he chose to fall in lockstep with the new Trump style “conservatism”. He, and many other Republicans will eventually pay for this mistake. Too bad too. The country needs a strong Conservative party to act as a check on the Dems. Trump has been a disaster for this country, conservatives included. 

[ViperMan]

1 hour ago, Negatory said:

Many of your guys' primary response to this f&#ed up day is to glaze your eyeballs over and just say "well, dems did bad things too, soooooooo." What was that Ghandi quote? An eye for an eye or something? Who cares, he was probably a lib.

Notice: this is how our GOVERNMENT functions right now. It's been like this for years. Some of us (me) see this as part and parcel of the same underlying issue - not about whether or not someone is wearing red, blue, or orange glasses. The issue, IMO, is who gets to define what reality is (i.e. we're flirting with themes from 1984). Notice how everything is about perspective and framing - what something is, and what it is not. We are arguing about what is real.

Don't forget, rioting (/peaceful protesting, depending on what frame you like to use) has been going on all summer long. Does it surprise you that there is finally a riot from the right? While it is shameful (perhaps a contender for the "most" shameful award) that it was apparently encouraged by Trump today, it is not qualitatively different than what has been going on all summer long from top to bottom, including mayors, governors, senators, congresspeople, business leaders, news organizations, social media, etc (please note, I am not justifying ANY bad behavior, from either side).

You name the thing, it has an agenda, a frame, a technological bubble to place you in, or an angle to push. And if you're me, what you've seen over the last four years is a ridiculous and hysterical obsession with how F'd up Trump is. You would think we're on the cusp of total collapse because of him. Frankly, it's been very petty, and in my view, it has been done intentionally and with design, because everyone knows that Trump is a little bit cranky and unpredictable...pester dad enough and he might lash out, which might work to your advantage...yes, I am that cynical about American politics and our media complex, which, let's not forget, are private companies (CNN = Time Warner, NBC = Comcast, ABC = The Walt Disney Company, CBS is a fusion of National Amusements, Paramount Pictures, and Viacom, Fox News = Fox, and so on...) whose ultimate motivation is profit, not rightfully informing you. Makes sense right? There's only so many different ways to dress up the truth.

Reflecting on 2020, I'd say the largest event was COVID-19. IMO, that is what actually led to the riots. You had people out of work, out of money, cooped up inside, told they can't travel, told to wear masks, being given conflicting information, no end in sight, watching "Tiger King" for the 69th time, etc, etc. Seems like a good root cause to me. But no, what caused the riots all summer long? Race, according to the "experts;" according to doctrine. But is that view justified, at all??? Has it been effectively defended or challenged? Was 2020 an outlier in regards to police "brutality"? Not likely. Yet here's the debrief: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/06/2020-not-1968/, https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-brutality-coronavirus-trump-protests-ongoing-summer-2020/, the theme being, "it was caused by systemic mistreatment of blacks"...really? That's our root cause from this mission? Nah.

Point being, we (America) have a split-view of reality. If you think only one side has scales on their eyes, I'm here to tell you the next four years are probably going to feel like the last four, and you'll still be wondering WTF if you think Trump is the root cause. Trump isn't the cancer, he's a symptom. This problem ain't going anywhere until we start discussing our problems from positions of good faith.

Edited January 7, 2021 by ViperMan

[Prozac]

1 minute ago, ViperMan said:

While it is shameful (perhaps a contender for the "most" shameful award) that it was apparently encouraged by Trump today, it is not qualitatively different than what has been going on all summer long from top to bottom, including mayors, governors, senators, congresspeople, business leaders, news organizations, social media, etc (please note, I am not justifying ANY bad behavior, from either side).

 

Are you kidding? It ABSOLUTELY is quantitatively different when the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES incites seditious activity against the VERY GOVERNMENT that he is supposed to lead! This is the United States of America. We don’t fucking do that here! The leader of the free world is attacking his own country because he can’t adult. It’s shameful. It’s dangerous, and it’s tragic. 

[FDNYOldGuy]

Well, well, well how the turntables...

"Disgraceful scenes": World leaders condemn chaos at U.S. Capitol

[Negatory]

4 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Are you kidding? It ABSOLUTELY is quantitatively different when the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES incites seditious activity against the VERY GOVERNMENT that he is supposed to lead! This is the United States of America. We don’t fucking do that here! The leader of the free world is attacking his own country because he can’t adult. It’s shameful. It’s dangerous, and it’s tragic. 

What's tragic is that military officers on this forum can't see that.

[ViperMan]

15 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Are you kidding? It ABSOLUTELY is quantitatively different when the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES incites seditious activity against the VERY GOVERNMENT that he is supposed to lead! This is the United States of America. We don’t fucking do that here! The leader of the free world is attacking his own country because he can’t adult. It’s shameful. It’s dangerous, and it’s tragic. 

Like I said, it's but merely one instance of a great many failures we've seen over the last year. And apparently, we do do that here.

Your statement is indicative of another inherent problem many of us have: we think we're somehow above all this - we're not. It's the same attitude of "it can't happen to me."

See: Mayors and legislatures turning on their police departments.

Edit to add: I said "QUALitatively" - not sure that matters to your point.

Edited January 7, 2021 by ViperMan

[Prozac]

3 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

Like I said, it's but merely one instance of a great many failures we've seen over the last year. And apparently, we do do that here.

Your statement is indicative of another inherent problem many of us have: we think we're somehow above all this - we're not. It's the same attitude of "it can't happen to me."

See: Mayors and legislatures turning on their police departments.

We absolutely have been and should continue to be “above all this”. That is exactly what American Exceptionalism has always been about. The President (the fucking President....it boggles the mind) has done severe, maybe irreparable damage to that concept. Mayors and legislatures don’t symbolize freedom and democracy around the world. The office of the POTUS does. Or at least it did before today. If “we do have that here” now, it’s squarely because Donald Trump and his supporters decided to. 

[17D_guy]

4 minutes ago, Prozac said:

We absolutely have been and should continue to be “above all this”. That is exactly what American Exceptionalism has always been about. The President (the fucking President....it boggles the mind) has done severe, maybe irreparable damage to that concept. Mayors and legislatures don’t symbolize freedom and democracy around the world. The office of the POTUS does. Or at least it did before today. If “we do have that here” now, it’s squarely because Donald Trump and his supporters decided to. 

Don't you remember all those other times the capital building has been invaded when the losing President/party called for a it?!

Yeah, me neither.

[ViperMan]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

We absolutely have been and should continue to be “above all this”. That is exactly what American Exceptionalism has always been about. The President (the fucking President....it boggles the mind) has done severe, maybe irreparable damage to that concept. Mayors and legislatures don’t symbolize freedom and democracy around the world. The office of the POTUS does. Or at least it did before today. If “we do have that here” now, it’s squarely because Donald Trump and his supporters decided to. 

I agree we 'should' - but it's not a birthright to quote Fingers.

And I don't think the damage is irreparable. They fixed Hiroshima for God's sake.

I would say the idea of America symbolizes freedom around the world. We got rid of the idea about one person being the end-all be-all in 1776.

[Kiloalpha]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

We absolutely have been and should continue to be “above all this”. That is exactly what American Exceptionalism has always been about. The President (the fucking President....it boggles the mind) has done severe, maybe irreparable damage to that concept. Mayors and legislatures don’t symbolize freedom and democracy around the world. The office of the POTUS does. Or at least it did before today. If “we do have that here” now, it’s squarely because Donald Trump and his supporters decided to. 

If you think America’s standing was great until 2016, I suggest getting a new prescription.

That said, his rhetoric is a problem. Has been for a while. But the institutions of this country are a lot stronger than he, or whatever this little band of jackasses who raided the Capital can do. So take a breath. The nation’s business will continue. It always does.

[Negatory]

I assume if martial law is attempted to be declared in 2 weeks, 100% of you will totally set aside all partisanship and defend the constitution.

Reaction to the events of today -  no, nothing to see here. It's just business as usual. It's always been like this.

But when it actually matters, we'll care, promise.

[Prozac]

Look guys, we’re not perfect. In fact, we’ve been pretty consistently far from it. Welcome to the human world. But despite our shortcomings, this country has, since its inception been the prime example of a nation made by the people, for the people. I’m tempted to lay into some of you for suggesting that we are no different or better than some third rate, corruption ridden banana republic. But I won’t. I won’t because I don’t think any of you really believe that. People don’t put on a uniform and serve with the distinction that differentiates the American serviceman from every other fighting man in the world unless they believe that their country is, in fact, exceptional. No American should accept the shitshow we’re witnessing today as just some expression of the new normal. It’s not normal as long as we refuse to accept it as such. 

[Kiloalpha]

5 minutes ago, Negatory said:

I assume if martial law is attempted to be declared in 2 weeks, 100% of you will totally set aside all partisanship and defend the constitution.

Reaction to the events of today -  no, nothing to see here. It's just business as usual. It's always been like this.

But when it actually matters, we'll care, promise.

My allegiance isn’t to a single man. That’s not what the Constitution is.

So, yeah. If he declares martial law and tries to remain past his time unlawfully, I don’t give a shit what party he’s affiliated with. He’s gotta go.

Today’s actions were bad. However, they are not nation-ending, banana republic, coup to retain power bad. How we move forward from here makes all the difference.

Also, worth noting that this places Democrats in the absolute best position of their lives to govern in a reasonable manner and lock down power for a decade.

However, I highly doubt they’ll be able to thread that needle. I don’t think anyone in DC can set aside their own power long enough to figure that out.

[slackline]

1 hour ago, 17D_guy said:

Never was a leader, cared about this wonderful country or its people.

I assume he was saying this because he was defending all the people protesting/rioting over social justice issues when he says “great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long.”  Right?  That’s what he’s referring to, right?  

[Pooter]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Look guys, we’re not perfect. In fact, we’ve been pretty consistently far from it. Welcome to the human world. But despite our shortcomings, this country has, since its inception been the prime example of a nation made by the people, for the people. I’m tempted to lay into some of you for suggesting that we are no different or better than some third rate, corruption ridden banana republic. But I won’t. I won’t because I don’t think any of you really believe that. People don’t put on a uniform and serve with the distinction that differentiates the American serviceman from every other fighting man in the world unless they believe that their country is, in fact, exceptional. No American should accept the shitshow we’re witnessing today as just some expression of the new normal. It’s not normal as long as we refuse to accept it as such. 

Amen. The problem is that people have their political views inextricably tied to their identity and value as a person. This is where the whataboutism and equivocating and excuses come from. When your identity is wrapped up in politics it's more comfortable to keep doing that than admit you were wrong. 

[Kiloalpha]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Look guys, we’re not perfect. In fact, we’ve been pretty consistently far from it. Welcome to the human world. But despite our shortcomings, this country has, since its inception been the prime example of a nation made by the people, for the people. I’m tempted to lay into some of you for suggesting that we are no different or better than some third rate, corruption ridden banana republic. But I won’t. I won’t because I don’t think any of you really believe that. People don’t put on a uniform and serve with the distinction that differentiates the American serviceman from every other fighting man in the world unless they believe that their country is, in fact, exceptional. No American should accept the shitshow we’re witnessing today as just some expression of the new normal. It’s not normal as long as we refuse to accept it as such. 

I’m not saying it should be accepted as normal, and even after today I think this country is the best place on the earth. Bar none.

Having a country as free as ours comes with risks. Shit like this is one of them. This isn’t the first time our country has navigated troubled waters, and it won’t be the last.

[SocialD]

Just woke up on the other side of the world and heard "some people did something..."  The internets are still cooking, so the lights must still be on.  Are riots and protests a bad thing now?  

[Pooter]

3 minutes ago, SocialD said:

Just woke up on the other side of the world and heard "some people did something..."  The internets are still cooking, so the lights must still be on.  Are riots and protests a bad thing now?  

When they're incited by completely false and unconstitutional claims by a sitting president.. yes.

 

and your tone might not be so flippant after you realize that the right just lost all of their power for at least the next two years and all of their credibility for the next decade. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Pooter

[SocialD]

47 minutes ago, Pooter said:

When they're incited by completely false and unconstitutional claims by a sitting president.. yes.

 

and your tone might not be so flippant after you realize that the right just lost all of their power for at least the next two years and all of their credibility for the next decade. 

 

Ha, you assume that I care that the right has all the power.  That said, I don't believe either party has any credibility to actually lose, so that helps keep me flippant.  The far ends of both parties are complete clown acts right now.  

Edited January 7, 2021 by SocialD

[pawnman]

52 minutes ago, Pooter said:

When they're incited by completely false and unconstitutional claims by a sitting president.. yes.

 

and your tone might not be so flippant after you realize that the right just lost all of their power for at least the next two years and all of their credibility for the next decade. 

They didn't have much credibility left anyway.

[17D_guy]

So...new thread on the 20th?

[Pooter]

45 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

Ha, you assume that I care that the right has all the power.  That said, I don't believe either party has any credibility to actually lose, so that helps keep me flippant.  The far ends of both parties are complete clown acts right now.  

Nihilism is one strategy I suppose. 

[Sua Sponte]

[Pooter]

16 minutes ago, joe1234 said:

I always come to view this thread when political stuff happens to see what the other side thinks for entertainment. I mean, one would think that a group of armed protestors storming the Capital of the United States while it was literally in session to declare a winner of an election and complete a peaceful transfer of power, literally THE most defining characteristic of a functioning democratic republic, would have people around here a little more outraged.

But honestly it's like this grudging feeble admittance that it's a bad thing and a bunch of "ok yeah fine but hey what about that time all those BLM protests broke windows at department stores..." And these are supposed educated military officers with a vested interest in defending the Constitution talking like this, not your normal rank and file idiot.

Think about that.

The ing capital building of the United States.

I feel like America's jumped the shark at this point.

I feel the exact same way. If left wing protesters had done this every trumper in the military would be screaming to high heaven about political norms and institutions and the constitution and what have you. Just goes to show how vulnerable people are to cults of personality.   
 

I'm no fan of the left and I think they continue to trend in a very damaging direction, but as of tonight there is only one political party whose supporters have invaded the capitol and endangered our duly elected officials conducting the people's business.