TreeA10 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 We need a voting system that is reliable enough that it can't be used to dispute the outcome. If doubt or uncertainty enters the equation, either side will use it to justify outrage and call the election illegitimate. Right now, there is enough evidence of error to muddy the waters. Dead people HAVE voted. Improper signatures HAVE been accepted. Election rules regarding deadlines WERE changed. Ballots HAVE been found all over the place. Fix these and other issues and nobody gets to argue they won because the other side cheated. In the mean time, there is a legal process that is on the books. If Trump wants to work that process, let him. If he is wrong, he loses. If he is right, Biden loses. Simple other than the fact I don't think either side will accept it. The former will rant and rave and be his usual obnoxious self while that latter will return to his basement while his minions burn down more cities. American loses either way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Sim said: Hey look! Another YouTube video posted by Sim that no one will watch and find convincing except Trumpkins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, TreeA10 said: We need a voting system that is reliable enough that it can't be used to dispute the outcome. If doubt or uncertainty enters the equation, either side will use it to justify outrage and call the election illegitimate. Right now, there is enough evidence of error to muddy the waters. Dead people HAVE voted. Improper signatures HAVE been accepted. Election rules regarding deadlines WERE changed. Ballots HAVE been found all over the place. Fix these and other issues and nobody gets to argue they won because the other side cheated. In the mean time, there is a legal process that is on the books. If Trump wants to work that process, let him. If he is wrong, he loses. If he is right, Biden loses. Simple other than the fact I don't think either side will accept it. The former will rant and rave and be his usual obnoxious self while that latter will return to his basement while his minions burn down more cities. American loses either way. Here's a good overview of every Trump lawsuit, its current standing and some of the evidence - https://time.com/5908505/trump-lawsuits-biden-wins/ If you don't like the Time link, there's one on wiki as well, but time was more concise. You're not going to get a perfect system for voting, because we're human. There are always going to be issues. Every reliable source has said that the election was very secure, and there were minor issues...just like every year. Does fraud happen, yes. But it's not on an order of magnitude that the Pres is claiming, and they're generally caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brabus Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 The discussion on dominion is pretty alarming, but for now it’s just talk. I’ll care when there’s actually evidence presented to back this talk. However, I do believe it should be looked at. I’m with Tree - how is it we have failed to tighten the system up to the point no side can use it as a reason to sow distrust in the voter ranks? This should be easy, and I do not understand why people are against some of the easy ways to accomplish this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream big Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Whatever the outcome, Trump will go peacefully, but he isn’t disappearing. He is still a powerful voice in politics on the right with almost half the country who loves him (let us not kid ourselves in thinking this election was not extremely close.) Two outcomes if Biden does indeed win: 1. Rumor has it Trump starts his own news company to rival Fox News. If successful, he will make the Democrat’s lives and jobs a living hell. They’ll miss when he was President and could be somewhat restrained. Now..precedent was that you don’t bash your successor but thanks to Bush Obama and Clinton all railing against Trump for four years, I’d say that Trump couldn’t care less about that precedent. 2. Trump runs in 2024, 100% legal. Who knows, he might win. Joe Biden can’t put a sentence together and Kamala received less than 4% of the vote in her primary. Kamala herself will inspire a red wave in 2022 and 2024..she is just not likable and her policies are pretty unpopular as indicated by the other elections we just had. This outcome would be entertaining if only to see the utter meltdown on the left. I think many of them are also delusional in thinking Biden will actually be the President if he wins and don’t see the giant elephant in the room that are Biden’s faculties and mental health. I think his eventual ousting under the 25th amendment will upset a lot of moderate democrats...heck I don’t even think Biden sees the snake in the room. Final point, I think the left will miss Trump as President. He was their scapegoat, their punching bag, what will they do now? One thing is for sure, the polling industry is dead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeA10 Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) The "Let's mail ballots to every one on our DMV/voter rolls/residents" technique has not improved the confidence in the outcome. Perception is reality to some people so why not remove the perception of fraud by implementing a voting system that does exactly that. The argument, "Well, voter fraud exists but in such small numbers it doesn't matter" gets shaky when win/loss margins are very narrow and, once again, there are enough documented accounts of fraudulent voting or ballot irregularities to challenge the election results or stir up hate and discontent. Every LEGAL vote should count and every ILLEGAL vote should be discarded. As an aside, a friend worked with the National Park Service and did a couple 3 month gigs in a park in Kenya. Their Kenyan election system requires ID and each voter gets purple dye applied to a fingernail which is permanent until the nail grows out. There are no debates over legal or illegal voting there. Edited November 14, 2020 by TreeA10 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 hour ago, TreeA10 said: As an aside, a friend worked with the National Park Service and did a couple 3 month gigs in a park in Kenya. Their Kenyan election system requires ID and each voter gets purple dye applied to a fingernail which is permanent until the nail grows out. There are no debates over legal or illegal voting there. We can't get people to wear masks to stop a pandemic, but we're going to get them to dye their finger? Quote The "Let's mail ballots to every one on our DMV/voter rolls/residents" technique has not improved the confidence in the outcome. Perception is reality to some people so why not remove the perception of fraud by implementing a voting system that does exactly that. The argument, "Well, voter fraud exists but in such small numbers it doesn't matter" gets shaky when win/loss margins are very narrow and, once again, there are enough documented accounts of fraudulent voting or ballot irregularities to challenge the election results or stir up hate and discontent. Every LEGAL vote should count and every ILLEGAL vote should be discarded. The evidence so far from the Trump lawyers does not support your assessment that the win/loss margin was narrow enough that these results will be overturned. Getting 10K votes thrown out where Biden won by 150K is a fools errand. There are yet not enough documented accounts to support those claims. The Trump lawyer team has claimed there is, but hasn't produced the evidence. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prozac Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 2 hours ago, brabus said: The discussion on dominion is pretty alarming, but for now it’s just talk. I’ll care when there’s actually evidence presented to back this talk. However, I do believe it should be looked at. I’m with Tree - how is it we have failed to tighten the system up to the point no side can use it as a reason to sow distrust in the voter ranks? This should be easy, and I do not understand why people are against some of the easy ways to accomplish this. The evidence suggests that we have a pretty tight system. Should we strive to tighten it up more? Sure. But the idea that the system is compromised to the point that the results shouldn’t be trusted is just another one of Trumps dubious claims that is not remotely grounded in reality. Remember 2016 when he won and STILL insisted that there were millions of illegal votes (because his fragile ego couldn’t deal with the fact that he lost the popular vote)? There were investigations after that election and they found the same thing that every voter fraud investigation has: it simply doesn’t exist on a large enough scale to sway an election. Yet it’s a topic that Trump has pushed for years. If election security is such a problem, what has the administration done over the last four years to address it? Not much. You know why? Because it’s an easy trope to fall back on (especially when you lose) that plays well with the base. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 hour ago, 17D_guy said: There are yet not enough documented accounts to support those claims. The Trump lawyer team has claimed there is, but hasn't produced the evidence. Here ya go. But something tells me it will be filed as "no one will watch and find convincing except Trumpkins." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17D_guy Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 26 minutes ago, Sim said: Here ya go. But something tells me it will be filed as "no one will watch and find convincing except Trumpkins." I made it only 1/2 way, sorry. They need an editor, and a script. As I've said before, these are one side of the case only. They are the Trump lawyers exhibits, and there's already been contested affidavit's (ex. postal worker) showing a lack of strength to the truthiness of all these claims. Looks like there's 3 lawsuits in Michigan right now, 2 Trump campaign, 1 other supporting. 2 have been denied, this one, which I assume is the last one has not yet been seen by a judge as far as I can tell. Perhaps there's a 4th, if so it's also been denied as far as I can find. A lot of these cases have been denied because the affidavits come to the court like this - "Judge Cynthia Stephens said in a written order Friday that while one plaintiff alleged he was excluded from watching the ballot counting, "the complaint does not specify when, where, or by whom plaintiff was excluded. Nor does the complaint provide any details about why the alleged exclusion occurred." So no, it wasn't convincing that there's wide spread fraud in MI, a traditional democratic state since since the first Clinton election that Trump only won by .22% or 10.7K votes. What's more likely...massive voter fraud, or a return to the blue voting for the past 30 years? Biden won by current count of 146K. Which is about what Kerry and Gore took over Dubya. But there's going to be massive, statewide fraud to "create" 600K+ votes for Biden out of nowhere. Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Sim said: Here ya go. But something tells me it will be filed as "no one will watch and find convincing except Trumpkins." Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Here ya go. But something tells me it will be filed as "no one will watch and find convincing except Trumpkins."Is it just me, or does Uncle Rudy look like he got into Trump's spray tan? Maybe my phone's color is off...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negatory Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Sim said: Here ya go. But something tells me it will be filed as "no one will watch and find convincing except Trumpkins." I mean, unfortunately, Rudy Giuliani doesn’t exactly have the highest credibility or like ability. I listened to it, and I agree there could be some things, but unfortunately all of the evidence is entirely circumstantial. All of it. Heres how GOP leadership actually feels about the allegations in each state. Unfortunately it’s not this one sided conspiracy theory: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/14/election-2020-gop-officials-swing-states-shoot-down-trump-fraud-claims/6271421002/ Also, still looking for someone to explain how the dems lost the senate when they committed so much coordinated fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negatory Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Here's what happens when you try to actually look into the bogus lawsuits about dead voters and they actually aren't dead: https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54874120 Also, I know two AD mil folks who legally voted absentee in Nevada. They have since been cited by the Trump campaign, by name, as having committed "criminal voter fraud": https://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/2020/11/13/hundreds-of-military-absentee-ballots-are-likely-on-gops-list-of-alleged-criminal-voter-fraud-votes/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Not surprised. Trump is throwing $hit at the wall and waiting to see what sticks. It’s sad to watch really. Almost like he doesn’t have the mental capacity to understand reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 What happens in the small chance that the court cases hold up certifying the votes so that neither candidate gets 270? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negatory Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, Guardian said: What happens in the small chance that the court cases hold up certifying the votes so that neither candidate gets 270? A shitshow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 A shitshow.Is that like a good fight with poop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homestar Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Guardian said: What happens in the small chance that the court cases hold up certifying the votes so that neither candidate gets 270? Doesn’t it go to the senate in this case? Edit: state delegations of the House of Reps vote for President and state delegations from the senate choose VP. 12th amendment or something. Edited November 15, 2020 by Homestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 The house chooses. Each state gets one vote and there are more red states than blue even though there are more blue reps. Happened twice in history. 1801 and 1825 I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhhello Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, Guardian said: The house chooses. Each state gets one vote and there are more red states than blue even though there are more blue reps. Happened twice in history. 1801 and 1825 I think Nope https://ballotpedia.org/Who_is_the_president_if_election_results_are_unknown_by_January_20,_2021%3F_(2020) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Scenario one in your link is what I described Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhhello Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Guardian said: Scenario one in your link is what I described You're right. I read it as majority vote in house. Found another link that explained it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger41 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 I know it’s Bill Maher, but trust me you non-Dems (and probably Dems) will like this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slackline Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 I know it’s Bill Maher, but trust me you non-Dems (and probably Dems) will like this.Beyond awesome! Thanks for the share.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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